Talk:Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust

Relevant data
Couple helpful sources (my translation).
 * Number of Poles aiding Jews:


 * Number of saved Jews by Poles:

Marcelus (talk) 13:28, 4 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Thank you, Marcelus. Do you think that "sprawiedliwi.org" is reliable? Gitz (talk) (contribs) 23:59, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I think it is, the site is run by Jewish Historical Institute and Museum Polin, but I don't think it should be our direct source, since they giving the name of the researchers Marcelus (talk) 00:50, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * POLIN Museum of the History of Polish Jews provide the name of the researchers, but no references to their work. We shouldn't report "Teresa Prekerova says so", if we don't know where and when she said so. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 01:11, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Recent edits
Hello Volunteer Marek, a few remarks to recent edits: Gitz (talk) (contribs) 02:49, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) With regard to this edit, We should take a closer look at the sources. 1) The quotation from Paldiel 1993 in footnote can be completed with the immediately subsequent sentence: These coercions came not only from strangers, but also from next-door neighbors and members of the rescuer’s family, who were infuriated at the rescuer for risking the lives of his family, of neighbours, and the local community ... all for the sake of the “despised” Jews. 2) The same applies to the quotation from Zimmerman 2003. After the text quoted in the footnote, Zimmerman quotes Tec (also in the footnote) and the testimony (reported by Tec) of one rescuer: My husband hated Jews ... Many Poles feel the way he did. I had to be careful of the Poles. One can read this also in Tec 1986 at p. 54. 3) Most of Tec 1986 is devoted to understanding the phenomenon of the antisemitic rescuers; however, the book cannot be interpreted as claiming that antisemitism did no hamper the rescuers. E.g., The environment in which Polish rescuers lived was hostile to the Jews and unfavorable to their protection (p. 58, already included in the article).
 * 2) With regard to this edit, perhaps we could restore Blonski and qualify him as "intellectual"? He is mentioned in the quoted source (Friedrich 2005). Do you think we should modify the opening sentence of Jan Błoński: a Polish historian, literary critic, publicist and translator?
 * 3) With regard to this, apart from the WP:WEASEL word "several", the content looks dubious/contentious to me; perhaps we shouldn't address this controversial point here on this article but rather at Collaboration in German-occupied Poland. I suggest we remove this text from this article:
 * Re 1 - the point here is that there were lots of different motivations for why people turned away Jews. Some out of anti-semitism, some out of fear, etc. The direct passages that are being quoted refer to and imply the threat of death as the cause. Pulling that together with other footnotes or passages from the text which discuss anti-semitism appears to be WP:SYNTH. In the lede, I think we should just leave it general like this since the quotes don't explicitly provide a reason.
 * Re 2 - sure, "intellectual" is fine. And the Blonski article should be modified as well.
 * Re 3 - "looks dubious" is not really an argument - one could say that about any piece of text one doesn't like. Collaboration and anti-semitism aren't the same thing though, so again, this is WP:SYNTH. As far as Tanini goes (in fact she stresses that distinction repeatedly through out her article), I think this might have been discussed some time ago (like years). Anyway, here's some relevant quotes: Unlike in Belarus and in Ukraine, where the Nazis sought (and found) collaborators, no Poles were given positions of authority. This policy ruled out any kind of legal collaboration at the political and economic level. and the ease with which the Poles created a split reality, where the occupiers were circumvented and ignored, was not due to specific anthropological qualities of the Poles, but to their experience of foreign occupation in the nineteenth century and Collaboration with the Nazis is still considered a marginal issue by both Czesław Łuczak and Tomasz Sztrzembosz, two of the leading experts on the Second World War in Poland, while Andzrej Paczkowski reminds readers of his recent History of Poland that the Germans found people willing to work with in all the countries they controlled and that Poland was no exception.1 (Iread that sentence as saying, yes there was some (Paczkowski) but it was marginal (Luczak and Sztrembosz). And Gross concludes that ‘there was no suitable structural collaboration in the Generalgouvernment’  Volunteer Marek   05:49, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Re 1, I see no WP:SYNTH. Quoted sources are entirely explicit about antisemitism being a risk factor that the rescuers had to face; at most, the point is whether a reference to Polish antisemitism is DUE there, e.g. Polish rescuers were hampered by the German occupation, potential betrayal by local population and widespread home-grown antisemitism looks fully verifiable to me.
 * Re 2, since I'm not familiar with Blonski, I won't modify the dedicated article myself, but I'm now restoring the reference in this article.
 * Re 3, this is an important discussion - perhaps this t/p is not the best venue for it, but let's start it. On many articles I've noticed a serious distorion with regard to "Polish collaborationism". Yes, up until the 1980s Polish historiography firmly denied the existence of anything like that; and also today, I guess, nationalist historians deny the existence of Polish collaborationism. But we need to be clear about what's the subject of controversy. As the quote from Tonini makes clear (and I could provide other sources, e.g. Friedrich's essay), in Poland there has never been what she calls " legal collaboration". What does she mean? The point is that, contrary to other European countries, in Poland the Germans had set out to complete crush and annihilate the nation. They didn't want to have a Polish state, not even a puppet state. "Legal" collaboration means institutionalized cooperation by representatives of the Polish nation: that was impossibile because the German did not even try to create a collaborationist government. They had to use the local police, yes, but that's basically all the collaboration they needed (and obtained). Our articles often present the absence of Polish legal collaboration as a moral/political choice. Yes, it was also a moral/political choice, and the Poles loathed the German occupiers and created one of the strongest resistence movement against Nazism. But there were collaborators in Poland - obviously there were, as anywhere else in Europe. This must be said clearly, because there's plenty of historical evidence to support that - e.g., the role of the Blue Police cannot be denied. Moreover, there was also widespread antisemitism. Jan Karski himself reported at the beginning of 1940 that German persecutions against the Jews were creating "a narrow bridge upon which the Germans and a large portion of Polish society are finding agreement" (Zimmerman, The Polish underground and the Jews, p. 75). So I think that Several scholars have stated that, unlike in Western Europe, Polish collaboration with the Nazi Germans was insignificant over-simplifies and is UNDUE in this article; the topic is complex and requires more space and better sources. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 11:52, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 March 2024
In the Bibliography, please remove the errant ref tag after the listing for Friedrich, Klaus-Peter (2005) 76.14.122.5 (talk) 19:27, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
 * ✅ Hyphenation Expert (talk) 21:09, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

POV template
This article has been the subject of a Peer-reviewed article which identifies many problems of bias, which I feel still remain. It particularly understates the degree of Catholic Polish people's collaboration with the nazis in the extermination of their Jewish countrymen. A complete rewrite with more focus on this aspect is necessary. Boynamedsue (talk) 13:52, 24 June 2024 (UTC)


 * "Co-founder in 2003 of the Polish Center for Holocaust Research, in Warsaw, Poland, Grabowski is best known for his book Hunt for the Jews: Betrayal and Murder in German-Occupied Poland (2013), which won the Yad Vashem International Book Prize."
 * Though the author of this article represents a particular view in academia that merits acknowledging, it seems difficult to diesntangle his own career accomplishments and interests from a baseline neutral historical perspective. 12.52.139.133 (talk) 14:15, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Moreover, in both the linked article (which, to me, reads more as polemic rather than systematic review as claimed) as well as other publications, Grabowski has betrayed a certain personal investment in how his scholarship is represented on Wikipedia. My understanding is that he is currently appraised to be a well respected but nonetheless controversial historian in his field of study. It would seem convenient for him to be able to frame his critics as well as Wikipedia editors exclusively as disgruntled Polish nationalists. 12.52.139.133 (talk) 16:01, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * By counterexample, it would be equally inappropriate to render undue focus on Polish rescue of Jews in the article "Collaboration in German-occupied Poland." For this reason as well, the existence of Grabowski's publication does not merit a complete rewrite as opposed to simpy ammending the article with occasional counterexamples when appropriate and perhaps a link to the equivalent Collaborationist article in the "See Also" section. 12.52.139.133 (talk) 14:25, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I've linked to that article (Collaboration in German-occupied Poland). It is quite possible this article here needs some c/e to ensure it is not too apologetic or hagiographic, but we need to discuss specifics, not generalities (particularly coming from a rather problematic essay. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 10:21, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Please provide concrete parts of the article that have problems with POV. Also take into the account that this is article about rescue not collaboration, which is only a context for the former. At this moment I'm removing the template, which shouldn't be misused. Marcelus (talk) 13:27, 9 July 2024 (UTC)