Talk:Research history of Mammut

Second Peale Mastodon
PrimalMustelid, the article says "The second skeleton's specimens landed eventually at the American Museum of Natural History". I have found two further contradictory sources, any thoughts?
 * "Warren acquired the second and less complete of the two skeletons ... That skeleton is now in the American Museum of Natural History (no longer mounted)" from The Rediscovery of Peale's Mastodon agrees with article


 * "The other was destroyed by fire in Baltimore, Maryland in 1850" NRHP registration form page 7 of PDF

TSventon (talk) 18:27, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
 * "The mastodon at the Baltimore Museum was eventually dismantled and dispersed, with some of the bones going to the Smithsonian. These were returned to the Peale Museum in 1954." The Mastodon in the Museum


 * Hi there, and thank you for contributing to this article and letting me know of conflicting facts! I've reinvestigated the facts, and it appears that the narrative that the mastodon skeleton being destroyed in 1849-1850 by fire stemmed from an assumption of its fate as a result of John Collins Warren stating that the whereabouts of the second skeleton are unknown in his 1852 monograph. Indeed, as Simpson pointed out, Warren said, "The upper figure, on the left hand, is that of Mr. Peale, discovered in 1801, which was the first approach to a regular skeleton. In 1802 it was transported to London, but subsequently restored to America, where it reigned with scarcely a rival for nearly half a century. In Peale’s Museum at Philadelphia, it occupied a prominent place, until, in the year 1849 or 50, it disappeared; and, since then, there is no authentic account of its history." The 1921 paper, amongst others, concluded that the second skeleton was therefore destroyed. Simpson in 1954 said, "The first Peale skeleton still exists. It is in the Geologisch-Mineralogische Abteilung des Hessischen Landesmuseums in Darmstadt, Germany, for which it was purchased by J. J. Kaup in 1854." Later on, he went on to explain, "Warren acquired the second and less complete of the two skeletons collected and restored by the Peales, the Baltimore skeleton exhibited in Rembrandt Peale's museum in that city. That skeleton is now in the American Museum of Natural History (no longer mounted) and cannot be the one in Darmstadt."
 * So what Simpson's arguing was that previous assumptions by American historians that the Peale's mastodon skeleton (or both skeletons) was (or were) destroyed stem from the belief that the disappearance(s) can be explained by a fire that could have destroyed the specimens. He stated that neither of them in fact were destroyed, as the first was purchased by Kaup for Hessisches Landesmuseum Darmstadt while the second, less complete skeleton was acquired by Warren for the American Museum of Natural History.
 * Do let me know what you think, and we can slightly revise the information accordingly. PrimalMustelid (talk) 19:00, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Something that I should add, it seems that the first complete skeleton returned to the United States in 2020-2021 temporarily for an exhibition in the Smithsonian American Art Museum, so it may have returned to the German museum afterward. PrimalMustelid (talk) 19:06, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I should have mentioned that I have just written Peale's Philadelphia Museum, hence my sudden interest in Peale's mastodons. I wanted to note the discrepancy about the Baltimore skeleton on the talk page, but not necessarily change the article. Obviously at least two of the three sources I quoted must be wrong and it is likely that the Yale University American monster is correct.
 * One bit of the article that doesn't look quite right is the paragraph about Barber's Farm, which is sourced to Zygmont, who only mentions Masten's Farm and doesn't say that the second skeleton came from Barber's Farm.
 * I had seen the 2020-2021 exhibition in the Smithsonian Magazine, but the mastodon features on the Hessisches Landesmuseum Darmstadt website so it obviously went back. TSventon (talk) 20:53, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I forgot an additional citation by Semonin, and even then I got the fact wrong, so I corrected it by listing the farms of both Barber and Millspaw, the latter of which is where the second skeleton reportedly came from. PrimalMustelid (talk) 23:13, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the correction, I have also found Mr. Peale and His Mammoth Museum, which says the Baltimore skeleton was sold to Warren, given to Harvard and then "In 1991, fifteen bones, all that remained, were transferred back to the Peale Museum in Baltimore", which supports the Maryland Center for History and Culture claim to have some of the Baltimore skeleton. TSventon (talk) 09:54, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
 * PrimalMustelid, I checked the AMNH paleontology database here and found they had Catalog Number 9965, a partial skeleton of Mammut americanum, collector Charles Willson Peale, which supports what the article says. TSventon (talk) 13:56, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Alright, I added the information and sourcing regarding Rembrandt Peale's skeleton in Baltimore in the article. PrimalMustelid (talk) 01:58, 3 May 2024 (UTC)