Talk:Retford Town Hall

Discrepancies
This article is now riddled with errors. Someone has taken factually correct information and rewritten it so that it's now wrong while purporting to be correcting things.SandrinaHatman (talk) 20:18, 5 February 2021 (UTC)


 * The main difference between us seems to be that you believe the building was destroyed in 1528 and that it was replaced by a new town hall. I have gone back to the original text written by Piercy: he writes in detail about the 1389 town hall and the 1755 town hall but the destruction / replacement is not mentioned by Piercy. Surely if this was the case Piercy would have mentioned it? A second difference is that Piercy gives the date for the first moot hall as 1389 but you have changed it to 1388 and a third difference is that Piercy indicates that the first moot hall i.e. market hall was in the market place (which is extremely likely) whereas you have changed it to "between the old market place and St Swithun's church, to the North of the current market place": a likely explanation for the third discrepancy is that the location of the market place changed and not all of the earlier town halls were on the same site as your edit summary suggests ("3 on the same site, the latest on a new site"). Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 22:04, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
 * https://www.bassetlaw.gov.uk/about-us/history-of-bassetlaw/history-of-retford-town-hall/ http://www.thorotonsociety.org.uk/publications/articles/retfordtownhall.htm
 * The Piercy Manuscript is held by Jones & Co solicitors and you have to apply to see it. So no, you haven't gone back to the original text, you've gone back to the printed text. I just checked the first printed version (1828) and it clearly says 1388 (page 18). There is no mention of any events in 1528 (page 20) so he probably didn't know about the fire. As you will see from the Thoroton Society: "There had been two previous moot halls; that of 1388 was replaced after a town fire in 1528. These three buildings had been erected by the town corporation of East Retford, a town with an unusually long history of local governance. All three were in the same location - the Market Place - adjoining the north-east end of Retford Square." You can see the exact location in the drawing of Town Hall 1 on the Bassetlaw Council website which is clearly in the old marketplace. And by the way, a moot hall isn't a market hall, it's multi-purpose building but its primary function is as an assembly hall.SandrinaHatman (talk) 21:20, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
 * OK, so we agree that Piercy did not know about the fire. I am aware that Megan Doole, writing for the Thoroton Society, says that the moot hall "of 1388 was replaced after a town fire in 1528". But if it was not Piercy it does beg the question as to what her source was. Piercy's exact words (page 140) were "The old town hall, which stood upon the same ground as the present one, was erected in 1389, and pulled down in 1754." As far as he was concerned there was no rebuilding in 1528. So why does Megan think otherwise? By the way, I see what you mean about the year 1388 on page 18; it equally clearly says 1389 on page 140. And I am happy to accept that all the early buildings could have been in one place: the old Market Place, and believe that description of the location should be used in the wikipedia article. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 22:22, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
 * It would still be helpful to understand what historical evidence there is for the suggestion that the town hall was "destroyed by the fire" by fire in 1528. The wording that I had originally used in this article was "it was almost certainly badly damaged in the fire". But you seemed to regard this as an "error". My preference would be to revert to my original wording in the absence of any historical evidence. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 13:19, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Dormskirk this is exhausting. You seem wedded to the idea that Piercy is correct. He is a useful but not 100% reliable source because he was a headmaster not a professional historian and much of his history is from oral sources. There are also discrepancies between the original MS and the printed version you're relying on - like the 8/9 is simply a misreading which was then typeset incorrectly. Megan in contrast is a historian (this was for her PhD) and moreover has access to records Piercy didn't. Megan's version is consistent with Bassetlaw Council's version and what is accepted by local historians. The description of where the moot hall was located is taken from Bassetlaw Council website: "A Moot Hall was erected by the town in 1388 in the Market Place, between the Square and St Swithun’s Church, built of timber and slate. It was replaced by a similar building after a fire which destroyed much of the town in 1528." Clearly the council also believes the moot hall was destroyed by the fire as was most of Retford which was largely timber at the time. Why do you believe that a fire that destroyed three quarters of the town spared a wooden building in the centre of town when all the other buildings except the church were burnt down? What evidence do you have that it survived when all other histories indicated it didn't and Piercy is strangely silent on the matter (likely because nobody told him about it)? Certainly, there are no buildings pre 1528 left in the centre except the church, which still has scorch marks on it. Regarding the 'marketplace' is has never moved but is exactly where it's always been, although some of the road line has changed after the rebuilding. The confusion is because while the street names haven't changed the building line and use of the spaces have changed. I suggest you check Google maps, look at some old street maps of Retford and old illustrations and if you're really interested go to the local studies library where there are significant unpublished primary sources. I will upload an old postcard that shows where the market used to be when I have time.SandrinaHatman (talk) 20:33, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
 * OK. The only issue as far as I am concerned is whether the old building was destroyed by the fire in 1528. I am content to go with your wording on everything else. I am only relying so heavily on Piercy because I have not seen any evidence from other historical sources that the building did burn down. It is not my responsibility to go to the local studies library etc. This has only become an issue because you regarded my drafting (which was sourced to Piercy) as an "error". Per WP:BURDEN you need to produce a reliable source to support an alternative position. And I am sorry, but I am not convinced that the Bassetlaw Council website is necessarily a scholarly source (it really depends on who contributed to it and what they based their conclusions on). I think we might just have to agree that the position, like so many matters in this period of history, is unclear. Dormskirk (talk) 22:57, 27 February 2022 (UTC)