Talk:Retjenu

Lotanu
Can we say that? Böri (talk) 15:18, 9 June 2011 (UTC)


 * There is also the "Litany" River, home of the "Leontes", according to the Greeks.
 * "The Litany is the principal of all the Phoenician rivers, for the Orontes must be counted not to Phoenicia but to Syria." -- George Rawlinson
 * — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:58b:e7f:8410:e07d:6faa:5496:6c95 (talk) 17:38, 2022 November 24 (UTC)

The confusion starts from the first sentence, the all-important defintion
"Retjenu was a name for Canaan and Syria. from the Negev Desert north to the Orontes River .... consisted of three regions. The southernmost was Djahy, which had about the same boundaries as Canaan. Lebanon proper was located in the middle, between the Mediterranean and the Orontes River. North of Lebanon was .... Amurru."

Modern terms mixed with ancient ones, some nonsensical to start with, some with huge overlaps.

The meaning of Canaan does vary, but most of the time it does include what would become Phoenicia, and sometimes all of (at least western) Syria, as we read elsewhere. So:
 * Which 3 parts? S to N, the lead seems to suggest: Djahy=Canaan, "Lebanon proper", and Amurru.
 * Retjenu = Canaan + Syria; Djahy = S Retjenu = all of Canaan. Unless Canaan = Palestine + (western) Syria all by itself (and historically that does include modern Lebanon). May all of Ra, YHWH and Qos stand by us.
 * "Lebanon proper" is a nonsensical entity for many reasons, first being that most of the territory of modern Lebanon is in most definitions part of ancient Canaan; second, before the French got hold of their mandate after WWI, Lebanon = Mount Lebanon and nothing more. So what is supposed to be "Lebanon proper"?
 * If all of Retjenu ends in the north at the Orontes River, how can its northernmost part be "north of Lebanon" when "Lebanon" is defined as ending at the same Orontes River? The 3rd part then falls outside of the defined boundaries of Retjenu.
 * Amurru, at least in the sense of the kingdom by that name, covered north-western Syria and northern Lebanon. So a good chunk of Lebanon again.

One does get a sense of what might be meant, but a far better choice of words is needed. Also, I'm getting the impression that the editor(s) who wrote/put together the definition, didn't quite get it themselves, and left it to the user to figure it out. Not acceptable. Arminden (talk) 20:21, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Second what Arminden said. The article, as is (2022-06) is quite non-nonsensical. — al-Shimoni  (talk) 22:18, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I guess one "non" would do :)) Said the Typo King himself, aka Arminden (talk) 07:20, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Not acceptable.


 * Then correct it. Don't leave y "dubious" tags for a simple contradiction—does it include lands north of the Orontes or not—where one or the other is likely the case based on the provided source. If the source has a problem, that would be bad but with all you don't seem to know, have checked, or care based on the comments here.


 * As for the rest of the complaints, (a) the default English use of Canaan is ancient Israel/Palestine where the writer doesn't want to get into the Israel/Palestine issue, particularly for periods before any recognizable form of Israel, Philistine, or Palestine existed (inter alia see/correct the lead paragraphs and map here in our Canaan article); (b) that's patently the use here; and (c), when your use of nonstandard expanded senses lead you into contradictions and absurdities, that's on you (not the writer) and is completely unhelpful. Use the standard definition that doesn't lead to absurdities and move on. The same thing applies to similarly easily avoided 'misunderstanding' of Mount Lebanon, which is a range dividing what's now Israel and what's now Syria; not a single peak; and clearly the writer's intent, properly distinguished from what's now Lebanon by the fully proper use of 'proper'.


 * Alternatively, try to make a good faith improvement by either using a newly accepted scholarly replacement for bog-standard Canaan (if one exists) and/or review the provided or other sources to fairly and authoritatively correct the actual problem.


 * At least based on the Hyksos article, this entire article is probably wrong and the Egyptians only used Retjenu to discuss the northernwestern Levant around Ugarit or its hinterland... but we need sources saying so or correcting that misconception. — Llywelyn II   12:52, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: 311_History of Ancient Egypt
— Assignment last updated by Johnstoncl (talk) 18:23, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Material not supported by source parked here
My problem with the definition (see above) proved to originate in some "imaginative editing", where the ref didn't cover half of what it was alleged to say, and new, anachronistic terms were introduced.

I have now rewritten that section based mainly on the same Steindorff & Seele source, plus I. Singer on Amurru. The info and wikilinked terms added by fellow editor, but unsupported by the source, are here. Some are possibly correct and thus useful, but must be sourced to be reintroduced.


 * "The borders of Retjenu shifted with time, but it generally consisted of three regions."

Did they shift with time?


 * "The southernmost was Djahy, which had about the same boundaries as Canaan"

Define Canaan! Definition varied, so nonsense.


 * "from Gaza in the south, to Tartous in the north"

Gaza Strip, i.e. Rafah, as S border, is as far as I remember correct. Tartous as N border, I don't know.


 * "The Akkar district south of Tartous in Syria was designated Amurru, the land of the Amorites."

Akkar? Links to modern Lebanese district. Tartous? Source! Amurru was NOT the land of the Amorites, but one Amorite kingdom.


 * "Lebanon proper was located in the middle, between the Mediterranean and the Beqaa Valley, the ancient Coele-Syria."

"Lebanon proper" means nothing, didn't exist before the French created such an entity. Forgets to include Anti-Lebanon (Steindorff does, it seems). Coele-Syria is a term from a different era (and "ancient" covers everything older than modern era in English), plus it had 2 different definitions. Arminden (talk) 15:51, 17 February 2024 (UTC)