Talk:Retreat of glaciers since 1850/Archive 4

Update needed
The section about Kilimanjaro seems badly outdated, and needs an update. It is full of predictions made 20 years ago. Has nobody been there lately ?Lathamibird (talk) 03:35, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

Update
I'd like to have more of our hard word around climate change showcased on the front page. This article will need quite a bit of updating before it can be rerun as WP:TFA. Recently, the IPCC released it's special report on the cryosphere which should contain plenty of material. would you like to have another go at updating this article? I'm willing to help a bit on the sidelines. Femke Nijsse (talk) 10:11, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I always preferred that this article merely be a statement on retreating glaciers and to leave the climate change arguments somewhat sidelined, allowing the conclusion to be self evident without blowing a bullhorn over it. That said it does need some updating that I will do but I can only think of one article that has ever appeared as TFA more than once.--MONGO (talk) 13:33, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Is it that rare? From the WP:TFAR page I got the impression that articles are quite regularly featured twice, but I don't have much experience with this at all: The TFA coordinators may choose to fill up to two slots each week with FAs that have previously been on the main page, so long as the prior appearance was at least five years ago. The coordinators will invite discussion on general selection criteria for rerunnable TFAs, and aim to make individual selections within those criteria. I've been busy trying to prepare global warming to be rerun over the last 9 month, but that article had bigger problems that this one. Femke Nijsse (talk) 23:56, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I was mistaken about how many FAs have main paged but the number is still 64 that have made the main page more than once. That's a small number compared to the 5K plus FAs we have. Category:Featured articles that have appeared on the main page twice...says 64...900 plus have yet to appear even once.--MONGO (talk) 03:24, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
 * It seems it's mostly important articles, often articles that have changed significantly between being featured, that make it. I think this article might fit into that category. Apparently, a 2017 discussion relaxed the criteria for articles appearing twice. The rational is that featured articles are now produced at a rate lower than one a day, and that many old FAs can't be featured due to content problems. Femke Nijsse (talk) 07:12, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I'll put it in my cue to update and start after I finish working on an FAC review.--MONGO (talk) 17:26, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
 * , is it still in the queue? Would be cool to have this updated again. I'm considering bringing it to a featured article review, but don't want to pressure you into doing things if you don't have the time of course. Femke Nijsse (talk) 19:07, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
 * There are a lot of updates needed as some of the details have been superceded. I suspect an FAR would delist it so would prefer not going that way and it would be a near monumental task to return it to FA. Recommend a Peer Review possibly? It is in my queue somewhat but not immediately. I had not realized nearly a year had passed since you last inquired. I'll run some automated tools now and see where it stands...--MONGO (talk) 19:15, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Seems Citationbot is down for repairs...I like it to make article wide citation adjustments...the automated Peer Review system also appears to be broken as well. Will see what else I can do for now.--MONGO (talk) 19:26, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
 * If you're planning to work on it in the medium future, maybe neither peer review or FAR is the best way to go. After a round of updating, these two venues can help get more of the article in shape, but the initial updating is quite straight-forward I think. If you prefer peer review, let's go for that venue. Great it's still on the radar. Femke Nijsse (talk) 19:53, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
 * CitationBot is apparently blocked due to, if I read it correctly, dropping URLs in favor of DOIs, the later of which are often free and not behind a paywall like DOIs are, though URLs usually are to print articles that are mere summaries and not as scientific sometimes. Therefore unless this is corrected soon, I'll have to check the refs manually!--MONGO (talk) 23:07, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

WP:URFA/2020
This article is near the top of WP:URFA/2020, and an update and tune-up is needed to avoid a Featured article review. With the last review now 15 years ago, a tune-up is needed here or the article should be submitted to Featured article review. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  02:40, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Does the article want to use spaced WP:ENDASHes or unspaced WP:EMDASHes? There is a mix.
 * There are MOS:SANDWICH issues and fixed image sizes everywhere.
 * Have the updates discussed above been completed ?


 * , you may have seen the latest IPCC report. Chapter 9 is dedicated to the cryosphere and SLR. Like the previous two IPCC reports that reviewed this topic, it's not really integrated into the article. I'm planning to bring this article to FARC after a wikibreak, unless work is started to bring the article up to date. I feel like a good third of references may need replacing, so will continue to be patient if work takes a while :). Thanks for bringing this article up to FA status. Femke (talk) 20:59, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Adding to WP:FARGIVEN Sandy Georgia (Talk)  16:09, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Some suggestions about restructuring
I think we are missing some more information about "fundamentals" at the start of the article, before it dives into all the different regions. I.e. things that are common throughout the world. I am missing a section on "causes" (Ok, might just be one sentence: it's getting warmer), but also one on "measurement techniques" perhaps? I have moved the section on "effects" up towards the start for that reason, too. Also the third paragraph in the lead contains information that is not really well covered in the main body; that's not ideal as the lead is meant to be a summary of the article. So I think we should have a section about the broad historical outline (after 1850), and then summarise that briefly in the lead. The lead should be made into a better summary, although it won't be easy to summarise all that content from the different regions. Note the article is also very long (60 kB of prose). Is it going into too much details in some areas where sub-articles exist? EMsmile (talk) 05:12, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Not a fan of the term "Fundamentals" as a section heading. The article is slated to have a complete update but if too many folks are moving things around that will be difficult.--MONGO (talk) 14:56, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
 * With the fundamental ice dynamics and dominant feedbacks differing so much regionally (f.i Greenland has a positive height-temperature feedback, whereas feedbacks in Antarctica act by the topography of the underlying rock), I'm not sure about that section title either... FemkeMilene (talk) 16:58, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi MONGO what is the timeline for the complete update that you mentioned, and what does it mean for other editors in the meantime? I am happy to take a backseat and not touch it for a while but it would just be good what the planning is? EMsmile (talk) 03:25, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * As shown in thread above, the article is in immediate peril of being delisted as an FA. I think rather than adding anything else, the best thing anyone can do to help is to remove redundant details, update references and work on MOS issues.--MONGO (talk) 03:43, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Update: The article has been demoted and is no longer a featured article, see here EMsmile (talk) 10:58, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

Moved text block from effects of climate change on human health
I am currently working on effects of climate change on human health. There was a big text block on glacial melting there which I think doesn't belong. I can't really judge whether any of this text is perhaps useful for this article? Can any of it be salvaged? EMsmile (talk) 09:33, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Glacial melting
A glacier is a mass of ice that has originated from snow that has been compacted via pressure and have definite lateral limits and movements in definite directions. They are found in areas where the temperatures do not get warm enough to melt annual snow accumulation, thus resulting in many layers of snow piling up over many years, creating the pressure needed to make a glacier. Global climate change and fluctuation is causing an increasingly exponential melting of Earth's glaciers. These melting glaciers have many social and ecological consequences that directly or indirectly impact the health and well-being of humans. The recession of glaciers change sea salt, sediment, and temperature ratios in the ocean which changes currents, weather patterns, and marine life. The melt also increases ocean levels and decreases the availability of water for human consumption, agriculture, and hydroelectricity. This aggravates and increases the likelihood of issues such as sanitation, world hunger, population shifts, and catastrophic weather such as flooding, drought, and worldwide temperature fluctuations.

“Glacier mass-balances show consistent decreases over the last century in most regions of the world and retreat may be accelerating in many locations" with an average loss of ten meters per year, nearly twice as fast as ten years ago. Glaciers currently cover ~10% of the Earth's surface, or ~15 million km2 and holds ~75% of Earth's fresh water supply. Glacial retreat first gained the attention of alpinists and the tourist industry shortly after 1940 – when the globe warmed ~0.5 °C. Even with 62 years of awareness, climate change is just becoming an issue for some parts of society. Over this time period the cirque and steep alpine glaciers were able to acclimatize to the new temperatures posed by climate change; large valley glaciers have not yet made this adjustment. This means the large valley glaciers are rapidly retreating, as their mass is attempting to achieve equilibrium with the current climate. If regional snow lines stay constant, then the glaciers remain constant. Today this is clearly not the case as global warming is causing mountain snow lines to rapidly retreat. Even the United States’ famous Glacier National Park is receding. More than two-thirds of its glaciers have disappeared and it is expected for them to be nonexistent in the park by the year 2030.

Glacial melt will affect low-lying coastal wetlands via sea level rise, change key drivers of fresh-water ecosystems, shift the timing of snow packs, and alter the unique character of associated fresh water streams off of snow pack. It has also been stated that the sea level will rise 28–43 cm by 2100; if all the ice on Earth melts, it is predicted that the ocean level will increase 75 meters, destroying many coastal cities. In addition, the freshwater swaps in northern areas are already affected by the intrusion of salt water. “Sea level rise will cause a change of state from freshwater to marine or estuarine ecosystems, radically altering the composition of biotic communities".

Not only are glaciers causing a rise in sea level, they are causing an increase in El Niño–Southern Oscillation (ESNO) and global temperature itself. Glacier loss adds to global heat rise through a decrease in what is called ice–albedo feedback. As more ice melts, there is less solar reflectivity and less heat is reflected away from the Earth, causing more heat to be absorbed, and retained in the atmosphere and soil In addition to the El Niño events, glacial melt is contributing to the rapid turnover of sea surface temperatures and ocean salt content by diluting the ocean water and slowing the Atlantic conveyor belt's usually swift dive because of a top layer of buoyant, cold, fresh water that slows the flow of warm water to the north. EMsmile (talk) 09:33, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Remove further reading list
I am suggesting to remove the further reading list as I don't think it adds much value, and it can become an arbitrary list:



EMsmile (talk) 15:28, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Moved text block from effects of climate change
I've cut out a text block from effects of climate change and will replace it with an excerpt of this article. However, is there anything in the content below that would be worth incorporating into this article? ++++++++ Warming temperatures lead to the melting of glaciers and ice sheets. IPCC (2007a:5) found that, on average, mountain glaciers and snow cover had decreased in both the northern and southern hemispheres. This widespread decrease in glaciers and ice caps has contributed to observed sea level rise.

As stated above, the total volume of glaciers on Earth is declining sharply. Glaciers have been retreating worldwide for at least the last century; the rate of retreat has increased in the past decade. Only a few glaciers are actually advancing (in locations that were well below freezing, and where increased precipitation has outpaced melting). The progressive disappearance of glaciers has implications not only for a rising global sea level, but also for water supplies in certain regions of Asia and South America.

With very high or high confidence, IPCC (2007d:11) made a number of projections related to future changes in glaciers:
 * Mountainous areas in Europe will face glacier retreat
 * In Latin America, changes in precipitation patterns and the disappearance of glaciers will significantly affect water availability for human consumption, agriculture, and energy production
 * In Polar regions, there will be reductions in glacier extent and the thickness of glaciers.

In historic times, glaciers grew during a cool period from about 1550 to 1850 known as the Little Ice Age. Subsequently, until about 1940, glaciers around the world retreated as the climate warmed. Glacier retreat declined and reversed in many cases from 1950 to 1980 as a slight global cooling occurred. Since 1980, glacier retreat has become increasingly rapid and ubiquitous, and has threatened the existence of many of the glaciers of the world. This process has increased markedly since 1995. Excluding the ice caps and ice sheets of the Arctic and Antarctic, the total surface area of glaciers worldwide has decreased by 50% since the end of the 19th century. Currently glacier retreat rates and mass balance losses have been increasing in the Andes, Alps, Pyrenees, Himalayas, Rocky Mountains and North Cascades.

The loss of glaciers not only directly causes landslides, flash floods and glacial lake overflow, but also increases annual variation in water flows in rivers. Glacier runoff declines in the summer as glaciers decrease in size, this decline is already observable in several regions. Glaciers retain water on mountains in high precipitation years, since the snow cover accumulating on glaciers protects the ice from melting. In warmer and drier years, glaciers offset the lower precipitation amounts with a higher meltwater input. Some world regions, such as the French Alps, already show signs of an increase in landslide frequency.

Of particular importance are the Hindu Kush and Himalayan glacial melts that comprise the principal dry-season water source of many of the major rivers of the Central, South, East and Southeast Asian mainland. Increased melting would cause greater flow for several decades, after which "some areas of the most populated regions on Earth are likely to 'run out of water'" as source glaciers are depleted. The Tibetan Plateau contains the world's third-largest store of ice. Temperatures there are rising four times faster than in the rest of China, and glacial retreat is at a high speed compared to elsewhere in the world.

According to a Reuters report, the Himalayan glaciers that are the sources of Asia's biggest rivers—Ganges, Indus, Brahmaputra, Yangtze, Mekong, Salween and Yellow—could diminish as temperatures rise. Approximately 2.4 billion people live in the drainage basin of the Himalayan rivers. India, China, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal and Myanmar could experience floods followed by droughts in coming decades. The Indus, Ganges and Brahmaputra river basins support 700 million people in Asia. In India alone, the Ganges provides water for drinking and farming for more than 500 million people. It has to be acknowledged, however, that increased seasonal runoff of Himalayan glaciers led to increased agricultural production in northern India throughout the 20th century. Research studies suggest that climate change will have a marked effect on meltwater in the Indus Basin.

The recession of mountain glaciers, notably in Western North America, Franz-Josef Land, Asia, the Alps, the Pyrenees, Indonesia and Africa, and tropical and sub-tropical regions of South America, has been used to provide qualitative support to the rise in global temperatures since the late 19th century. Many glaciers are being lost to melting further raising concerns about future local water resources in these glaciated areas. In Western North America the 47 North Cascade glaciers observed all are retreating.



Despite their proximity and importance to human populations, the mountain and valley glaciers of temperate latitudes amount to a small fraction of glacial ice on the earth. About 99% is in the great ice sheets of polar and subpolar Antarctica and Greenland. These continuous continental-scale ice sheets, 3 km or more in thickness, cap the polar and subpolar land masses. Like rivers flowing from an enormous lake, numerous outlet glaciers transport ice from the margins of the ice sheet to the ocean. Glacier retreat has been observed in these outlet glaciers, resulting in an increase of the ice flow rate. In Greenland the period since the year 2000 has brought retreat to several very large glaciers that had long been stable. Three glaciers that have been researched, Helheim, Jakobshavn Isbræ and Kangerdlugssuaq Glaciers, jointly drain more than 16% of the Greenland Ice Sheet. Satellite images and aerial photographs from the 1950s and 1970s show that the front of the glacier had remained in the same place for decades. But in 2001 it began retreating rapidly, retreating 7.2 km between 2001 and 2005. It has also accelerated from 20 m/day to 32 m/day. Jakobshavn Isbræ in western Greenland had been moving at speeds of over 24 m/day with a stable terminus since at least 1950. The glacier's ice tongue began to break apart in 2000, leading to almost complete disintegration in 2003, while the retreat rate increased to over 30 m/day.