Talk:Return to Zion

Help from an adminstrator
(this message is for any administrator)

Hi. i wrote the article The Return to Zion and User:Shuki has tagged it with "merge" to "gathering of Israel". I turned to shuki many times - and left him messages so we can discuss this matter, including sending him an e-mail, reminding him to respond to my posted message at his talk page - but have got no answer.

So I'd like to turn to some administrator, in order to discuss this matter and solve the issue.

firat, as i wrote on my posted message to shuki - i had translated this article from Hebrew - (also- in consistence with the article Pre-Zionist Aliyah wich also seem to match it's Hebrew article).

"The gathering of israel" - was put in the Hebrew wikipedia as a different subject to "the return to Zion" - since it "gathering" is the promise of exile and return - and "the return to Zion" is a different term by itself - which is only one of the fulfillment of this promise of return (there were other exiles and return - who are subject to different articles). "The Return to Zion" also has other related topics of Aliyah and modern Zionism etc - not specifically concerning the promise of exile and return.

In addition, after shuki's tagging - I had linked "the gathering of Israel" to the Hebrew article - and had asked him to see for himself that they put it on a different article then "the return to Zion", again couldn't get his answer.

Second, the article is not an original research, had it been so, i wouldn't have translated it from hebew - look at the Hebrew link i put to "the return to Zion" - Hebrew wikipedia has not tagged it this "original research". I also referred on my references to :


 * Book of Ezra
 * Book of Nehemiah

wich the article is based upon - I just can't think, in case of article on the bible, of a more "reliable source" then the bible itself ? ...

third, the article "pre-zionist Aliyah" is also translated from the Hebrew article (or at list in consistence with the Hebrew article) - but "pre-Zionist aliyah" has no references at all and it was not tagged - in contra to my article - wich both is in with consistence with the "Hebrew- the return to Zion", the "English + Hebrew - pre Zionist aliyah" as well as has the references of which the article is based up on and those are:


 * Book of Ezra
 * Book of Nehemiah

i'd like to ask the administrator to remove those tags. Thank you! And have a nice day!

--Shevashalosh (talk) 11:45, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


 * related answear from User:Stefan


 * --Shevashalosh (talk) 12:34, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi, Shuki – how are you?


 * I'd like to comment on your request of the "merge". Asking to do so with the article of "gathering of Israel" – is like asking to "merge" Ben-Gurion article to the state of Israel article, which both are related topics, yet subject to different articles, as well as trying to "merge" –Aliyah with First Aliyah for example, – which doesn’t make any sense – since the former is the definition and the latter is a practical event.


 * Second, "The Return to Zion" is such a big piece of History in Judaism 101, Zionism 101 and Aliyah 101, as well as a unique act in Human History, that I can't imagine it not as a "stand alone" as much as I can not imagine Ben Gurion article not to be a "stand alone" - outside of Zionism or Israel or many other related topics.


 * Third, in addition to what I have written to user:Stefan (see the above message), the article Pre-Zionist Aliyah, has prepared in advance a link to a future article of " The Return to Zion", which I had picked upon and written this article (as I had told stefan, the "English-The Return to Zion" article is in consistence with the article of the Hebrew + English "Pre-Zionist Aliyah" - and both are in consistence with the "Hebrew- the return to Zion" article,– as well as fits into the Hebrew +English  table of timelines of  "Aliyah and settelment in Israel"-see body of "The Return to Zion" article)


 * Forth, the Hebrew wikipedia had not combined the "Henrew-Gathering of Israel" (Kibbutz Galuyot) article with the "Hebrew-The Return to Zion" article for the reasons I had laid above, and especially for the "Gathering of Israel" being a definition of a future term of many returns and Aliyot, rather then "The Return to Zion" as being just one of practicalities in a series of returns and Aliyot. The Hebrew Wikipedia has not even linked it as "See Also" (and it did not even come to my mind to do so in the English article of "The Return to Zion"). Both are important part of History and are subject to different articles ("The Return to Zion" is even more so because the event itself had tremendous influence over Jewish national aspiration, Identity and modern Zionism ever since the Babylonian exile).


 * Fifth, I'd like to suggest something completely different. The article "Gathering of Israel" – which talks about a story in Exodus (if I'm not mistaken) – which besides being a kind of a "definition" to what would become future term of returns and Aliyot, whereas the "The Return to Zion", in a different timeline of the book of Ezra and Book of Nehemiah, on the latter part of the bible, is only one in the series of returns and Aliyot (See Hebrew +English table of timelines of Aliyah and settlement in Israel in the body of the article):


 * Since Hebrew +English "Pre-Zionist Aliyah" are in consistence with Hebrew +English "The Return to Zion" – whereas the English "Gathering of Israel" is not in consistence with the Hebrew article (Kibbutz Galuyot), I'd like to translate the Hebrew "Kibbutz Galuyot" (Gathering of Israel) and turn all those circle of article to be one series of article that will be in consistence with each other (and I'll put the current content of "Gathering of Israel" as an "external link").


 * In order to so, and in consistence with the separate articles of the "Hebrew-The Return to Zion" article and the "Hebrew-Gathering of Israel" (Kibbutz Galuyot) article (see the Hebrew link I have provided to the English article of "Gathering of Israel) –I'd like to ask you to remove the "merge" tag. After removing the "merge" tag, you may try to find some other solutions to the English "Gathering of Israel" article, other then my offer of help in translation (I suggest "The Gathering of Israel" will remain as a "stand alone" as well. The fact that "The Gathering of Israel" doesn't have "reliable sources" shouldn't make one conclude that the sources would some how "be improved" by "merging" it with another different topic-article, but rather the solution is either adding on "reliable sources" or re-writing a new article that does have reliable sources – as I have offered my help on the issue)


 * See Also:
 * Aliyah
 * Jewish Virtual Library - Glossary- Kibbutz Galuyot
 * Jewish Virtual Library - The Return to Zion
 * See Google: "The Return to Zion" and "Kibbutz Galuyot" apear on different terms, topics and articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shevashalosh (talk • contribs) 00:28, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * ThanX!


 * --Shevashalosh (talk) 13:49, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was move per request.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 01:35, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

The Return to Zion → Return to Zion – This came up at WP:CFDS with a request to move to match this article. I think it should be the other way around, as the topic doesn't appear to meet WP:THE. You certainly wouldn't capitalize "the" in running text here. Indeed we don't in the article. BDD (talk) 18:57, 13 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Support per nom. Red Slash 05:15, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per WP:THE. No reason to have the "The" in this case. Good Ol’factory (talk) 19:27, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Shorten
Shortened short description per WP:SDSHORT. Editor2020 (talk) 21:44, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Judea/Judah/Yehud is separate from the former northern Kingdom of Israel
Please undo this: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Return_to_Zion&oldid=1097328964 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Walapo (talk • contribs) 03:25, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

There were many mistakes in the article that mentioned the return of Judeans to the Land of Israel, when in reality the Edict of Cyrus and the Persian Jewish province were in the Land of Judah. It is common inaccuracy to mistake the two. The northern Kingdom of Israel was destroyed by Assyrians more than 200 years before the Edict of Cyrus. The Israelites of the Kingdom of Israel became the 10 Lost Tribes circa 730 BCE. The descendants of the 10 lost tribes of the Kingdom of Israel called themselves as Bnei Israel (children of Israel) and differentiated themselves from the Judahites of the southern Kingdom of Judah, who they were in constant conflict with.

The Edict of Cyrus applied only to Judeans from the Kingdom of Judah to return to the Persian Yehud/Judah province. The Edict of Cyrus did not apply to Bnei Israel (Israelites of the Kingdom of Israel) to return to the Land of Israel, to the north of the Yehud/Judah.

The Bnei Israel remained in exile and became the Israelites of Mesopotamia (Iraqi Jews, Bukharian Jews, Persian Jews - although 'Jew' is a misnomer as it applies to the Judeans of Judah, whom the Israelites were in conflict with). It's worth to note that Samaritans also retain the Israelite identity and also identify themselves as Bnei Israel to differentiate from the Judaites whom the northern Kingdom was always warring with. Walapo (talk) 02:58, 10 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Correct. As can clearly be seen from both the text of the edict and the titles of the sources, the focus here is indeed the land/kingdom of Judah specifically. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:24, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Image: Cyrus restoring the vessels of the Temple.
What is the file size of this image - I can't (on this tablet) get any details about it. l think it is too big - it took about 30 seconds to display, and I don't think the problem is with my internet connection. Could someone please attach a lower-resolution version? 194.193.49.20 (talk) 05:11, 15 June 2024 (UTC)