Talk:Revan/Archive 2

No cannon [sic] ending
This paragraph was added to the article by 152.163.100.198. Since I removed it, I feel at least partially responsible for giving a reason why.


 * "NB: Lucasfilm has no power over the ending. Their insertion of KOTOR into their databanks was to appease the KOTOR fans. Also the Databank bios for Basilla Shan and Darth Malak contradict themselves. Bastila's states: "Bastila urged Revan to turn to the dark side, and the decision made by Revan ultimately sealed the fate of Bastila, the Star Forge, and Darth Malak's scourge." While Malak's says: "Jedi observers closely watched Revan as the "reformed" Sith traced the path blazed during the initial search for the Star Forge. In this manner, agents of the Republic were able to find the station and confront Malak." In this version Revan isn't even their which contradicts KOTOR and KOTOR 2. Revans ending was the choice of the player. There is no cannon ending, until either Bioware or Obsidian state so.


 * Lucasfilm does have power over the ending. As George Lucas's company, they're the ones in charge of Star Wars.
 * Their insertion of Knights of the Old Republic information into their Databank was due to the fact that the game contains gargantuan amounts of Star Wars historical information and was a critical point in the history of the Old Republic.
 * There is no contradiction between the Databank excerpts you posted. Revan, as an agent of the Republic, was indeed present at the destruction of the Star Forge, as both of the above Databank excerpts confirm.
 * Revan's ending was the light side male choice of the player, as confirmed on the starwars.com Databank and by author Dan Wallace. --Jon Hart


 * Lucasfilm does have power over the ending. As George Lucas's company, they're the ones in charge of Star Wars.


 * As it being Biowares story and character not Lucasfilm, They have the power to say what was cannon and not. Although KOTOR is a Star Wars side story. Thats what it remains a side stroy. Its an infinity. Meaning it didn't happen it the established Star Wars EU. With that being said how can something that is not cannon have a true ending? Also why the insertion of a Dark Side choice in KOTOR 2? A Dark Side possibility that has no errors in it. A Dark Side ending that states the Star Forge was indeed destroyed just not then and there.


 * Their insertion of Knights of the Old Republic information into their Databank was due to the fact that the game contains gargantuan amounts of Star Wars historical information and was a critical point in the history of the Old Republic.


 * As stated by the one's who put the KOTOR into the databank it was to appease the fans.


 * "By popular demand, elements of this sprawling saga have been placed into the growing starwars.com databank, but there's a word of caution: If you haven't played Knights of the Old Republic yet, be warned. Some of these characters' most personal agendas may be revealed in these updates."


 * ~http://www.starwars.com/databank/updates/news20040623.html


 * There is no contradiction between the Databank excerpts you posted. Revan, as an agent of the Republic, was indeed present at the destruction of the Star Forge, as both of the above Databank excerpts confirm.


 * Yes, the endings do contradict themselves if Revans cannon ending was really Light Side, why put Revan's choice into question? Why not just say Revan refused Bastilla's urgings? But the fact is Revan was given an option that wasn't expanded on. So in all there is no cannon ending and either the poster's section should be revised or my or anther similar post should be put up, because fans come here and think that this is fact. When its sometimes false.


 * Revan's ending was the light side male choice of the player, as confirmed on the starwars.com Databank and by author Dan Wallace.


 * Dan Wallace hasn't published anything under the Star Wars name stating that Revan is a male so it is "unofficial". And if this article strives to be accurate, it should state that Revan is unofficially a male. And Until BioWare or LFL state Revan was light then Revan isn't Light. --Anon


 * Bioware was working for Lucasfilm, just like any authors who are hired to write a Star Wars book. The word of Lucasfilm outweighs the word of its temporary employees. Though in this case the point is really moot, as Bioware hasn't said anything on the subject while LFL has.


 * Furthermore, KOTOR is not Infinities. It doesn't bear an Infinities label and it hasn't been stated to be apocryphal, so I have no idea where you got that notion from. Since KOTOR is canon, it therefore has a canon ending. The dark side choice is there to give the player more control over his character. In the official Star Wars universe, Revan did what he did in a certain, set way, but in the individual game files of each person who played the game, he did whatever they wanted him to do, and those personal choices carried over into the sequel.


 * On the supposed Databank contradictions . ..


 * "Bastila urged Revan to turn to the dark side, and the decision made by Revan ultimately sealed the fate of Bastila, the Star Forge, and Darth Malak's scourge." Which it did. Bastila was redeemed, the Star Forge was destroyed, and Malak was killed."


 * "Jedi observers closely watched Revan as the 'reformed' Sith traced the path blazed during the initial search for the Star Forge. In this manner, agents of the Republic were able to find the station and confront Malak."


 * Revan and his nine-member crew are the "agents of the Republic." They lead the Republic to the Star Forge and Revan confronts Malak. The Republic destroys the Star Forge and Revan kills Malak.


 * Thus, no contradiction between the two.


 * Dan Wallace doesn't have to publish anything stating that the light side male choice is the canonical KOTOR ending; it's not his own personal opinion, but rather the official decree of LFL. It'll never be published in a print source because that would sour the gameplay experience for some casual Star Wars fans, but not knowing of an official answer doesn't mean that there isn't one. --Jon Hart


 * KOTOR is not cannon. It contradicts the established EU.


 * 1. It the Sith Lords have the title "Darth" which was created a 1000 years later by Darth Bane


 * 2. After Exar Kun's death its said the galaxy was in a time of peace untile Darth Bane.


 * 3. The Rakatan Empire.


 * And until LFL realeses an offical statement saying the LS ending was the true ending in KOTOR. Then its the players choice. Dan Wallace is not LFL. His comments have no place in this. --Anon.

1. Darth Bane took up that name, but it was never said in TPM that he was the absolute first to think up of Darth as his title. Is any evidence that Darth Bane was "the first" to use term the "Darth"? The TPM novelization said only that took the name Darth Bane, but it doesn't say what was his masters name or his own "true" name. Who's to say that's only as far as recorded history went, and Darth was actually used before this? Leland Chee, keeper of the Holocron and SW continuity specifically stated that Bane revived the Darth tradition, began by Revan.

2. Who says there was a time of relative ever lasting peace? War turns the pages of history, not peace. Any actual LACK of conflict mentioned in those 3,000 years should simply be chalked up to gaps in the historical record. We don't know of the history decade after decade after the war with Exar Kun because SW never went into that era EXCEPT with Bane which happened millenia afterwards.

3. The Ratakan Empire was not some massive galaxy spanning organization. It controlled barely a hundred or so systems. Given their Empire was about at most 1000 star systems (in a galaxy where the GE was a million and Han notes TWELVE MILLION)...someone needs to brush up on something.


 * KOTOR is canon. It does not contradict the established EU.


 * 1. No it wasn't. If you actually played the game, you'd know that the Sith name "Darth" was created around 3960 BBY, if not earlier.


 * 2. Wrong. Excluding for a moment the Cleansing of the Nine Houses, the Mandalorian Wars, and the War of the Star Forge, there were still one thousand straight years of war prior to Darth Bane's time.


 * 3. Um . . . what's your point?


 * If you'd actually bother to read my comments, you'll see that I never said Dan Wallace was LFL; rather, I pointed out that what he was saying was not his own personal opinion, but rather LFL's official decision. Their decisions, unfortunately, do have a place here. --Jon Hart 7 July 2005 16:04 (UTC)


 * There is no point in drawing this out further. You just proved you have no clue what your talking about.


 * 1. Bane made the up name Darth and the rule of two which KOTOR also contradicts. KOTOR says Revan made it cause its a INFINITY. Bane made the name in the TOTJ comics. And the rule of two.


 * 2. Wrong. It was straight peace.


 * 3. The Rakatan Empire didnt exist in prior EU and KOTOR can't make things up in the offical EU timeline.


 * (I should like to interject here: it is indeed possible that the Rakatans did exist in prior EU timelines. It is known that the system of Corellia, The Maw, and Centerpoint Station (which bears a certain resemblance to the Starforge), were all constructed by a ancient, powerful bygone empire.  The amount of retconning needed to recouncile the Rakatans with being the Empire that constructed all of those mega-engineering projects is truly minimal.) --Maru 02:49, 20 July 2005 (UTC)


 * You my ignorant friend have been brainwashed by KOTOR. And until LFL makes an offical statement then whatever you say is bull. --Anon.


 * 1. Prove it. You can't, because you're wrong. Nothing says Bane created the title Darth, just that he began the tradition of renaming all of his successors with it, which he did. Even before KOTOR came out he wasn't the first guy to use it. Ever heard of Darth Rivan?


 * 2. Prove it. You can't, because Darth Bane is intertwined inextricably with the millennium-long New Sith Wars. Quite simply, the galaxy had been at war for centuries before Bane's birth.


 * 3. omglol teh prekwalz = infnitys?!?!1 :O


 * Please, if you're going to make such outlandish arguments, at least try to back them up, would you? Pretty please? --Jon Hart 8 July 2005 16:31 (UTC)

With a license to the Star Wars universe given to them, the creators of KotOR can add to EU canon. The fact that something like the Rakatan Empire was never mentioned prior to KotOR being released does not mean it cannot be canon. In the Jedi Academy Trilogy, Exar Kun is first introduced as the spirit of an ancient Sith Lord of Old Republic times. Kun didn't exist in prior EU (the Tales of the Jedi series had not come out yet), so does that mean he wasn't or isn't canon? And the addition of KotOR characters to the Star Wars Databank only furthers the fact that the events of KotOR are indeed canon - arguing that it was only added to appease fans of the game is a weak assumption. Even if that was the case, it would still be canon, whether certain Star Wars fans like it or not. --Nufy8 8 July 2005 05:08 (UTC)


 * They "can" add all they want but if it contradicts the already established EU timeline then it is false. Exar Kun was added in and made to fit in the timeline. Revan hasn't. It contradicts the TOTJ comics and the Sith. Revan didn't start The rule of two or the title DARTH. DARTH BANE did. A weak assumption? The damn people who put it in said it was to appease the fans like you. So no KOTOR is not canon. No matter how hard you wish it to be. It will never happen. --Anon


 * You do know, of course, that you're completely undermining your own argument. The simple fact that you think there are no more than two Sith in KOTOR shows that you either haven't played the game or didn't pay any attention while playing. Either way, you're not qualified to debate these subjects. But in case the THOUSANDS OF SITH Revan mows down throughout the game just slipped your mind for a moment, it would be most gratifying if you would do any (or, if you feel up to the challenge, all) of the following:
 * Give an example of how KOTOR contradicts TOTJ.
 * Provide a source that states unequivocally that Darth Bane created the name "Darth."
 * Name a source that indisputably proves there was no war between the Great Sith War and the War of Light and Dark.
 * Show how the Infinite Empire contradicts the EU while Exar Kun doesn't.
 * Cite an official LFL statement saying that KOTOR isn't canon.
 * If you can't do these things, please concede the debate. --Jon Hart 8 July 2005 22:17 (UTC)


 * Bane did start the rule of two, but Darth Revan and Darth Malak weren't the only two Sith at the time, so it does not contradict - they just have the titles. Other than your word, what proof do you have that KotOR isn't canon? Is the fact that you don't agree with its events and think it contradicts when it doesn't the only thing you're going on? Even if I was not a fan of the game, I would still accept the fact that it is considered to be canon. Even if I absolutely deplored the events that took place in KotOR, it wouldn't be any less canon. To me it sounds like you're decrying this as non-canon simply because you don't like the story elements. --Nufy8 8 July 2005 21:54 (UTC)


 * Hear, hear. --Jon Hart 8 July 2005 22:17 (UTC)


 * You do know, of course, that you're completely undermining your own argument. The simple fact that you think there are no more than two Sith in KOTOR shows that you either haven't played the game or didn't pay any attention while playing. Either way, you're not qualified to debate these subjects. But in case the THOUSANDS OF SITH Revan mows down throughout the game just slipped your mind for a moment, it would be most gratifying if you would do any (or, if you feel up to the challenge, all) of the following:


 * They are Sith but they are not SITH LORDS OR LORDS OF THE SITH. WHICH MALAK AND REVAN WERE LORDS OF THE SITH. THE REST ARE DARK JEDI. WHEN REVAN WAS GONE MALAK TOOK HIS APPRENTACE DARTH BANDON. WHEN BANDON DIED MALAK TOOK BASTILLA AS A APPREINTACE.


 * Give an example of how KOTOR contradicts TOTJ.


 * RULE OF TWO, DARTH, KOLTO.


 * Provide a source that states unequivocally that Darth Bane created the name "Darth."


 * NO SITH LORDS BEFORE BANE CARRIED THE TITLE. BANE WAS FIRST INTRODUCED IN THE EP1 BOOK AS DARTH BANE. REVAN DID NOT EXIST THEN. BANE CAME FIRST ITS BANE WHO MADE THE NAME.


 * Darth Bane


 * Category: Characters
 * Type: Human
 * Affiliation: Dark Jedi and Sith


 * this ancient Sith Lord was the last of his kind to survive the Battle of Ruusan, a catastrophic struggle that consumed his order some 1,000 years before the Battle of Yavin. Bane was a tall, bald man with heavy muscles and an intimidating gaze. He had trained under Lord Qordis, but never actually completed his training. He was an evil man, and gathered strength from killing young children before their parents' eyes, then murdering the parents. During the Battle of Ruusan, Darth Bane had not agreed with Lord Kaan's to use a thought bomb. He managed to escape its devasation and flee to Onderon's moon, Dxun, haunted by the specters of his former master as Lord Kaan. On Dxun, he discovered Exar Kun's Sith holocron, which he secured after being beset and infected by orbalisks. The orbalisks saved him from the attack of a skreev, while Bane's own strength in the Dark Side of the Force allowed him to control it. He later used the skreev to escape to Onderon. Recognizing that the Sith order was doomed to fail if it became too large, Bane waited until all the other Sith were destroyed by their brethren or the Jedi Knights, then established a set of rules that were dominated by the pretense that there could only be two Sith active in the galaxy at any time: a Master and an apprentice. Eventually, Bane took his own apprentice, and set his new order in motion. Future Sith Lords were taught the virtues of patience, planning, and secrecy, and each was to take on the title of Darth.


 * FROM THEFORCE.NET


 * Name a source that indisputably proves there was no war between the Great Sith War and the War of Light and Dark.


 * TOTJ JEDI VS SITH


 * Cite an official LFL statement saying that KOTOR is canon.

AND TO THE OTHER GUY I LIKE KOTOR. BUT I CAN SEE WHATS CANNON AND WHATS NOT. --Anon.


 * First off, please tone down the caps lock usage, we can see just fine. To begin, I'd like to inform you that, yes, there were Sith Lords besides Malak and Revan at the time. This goes for both games. Even if there weren't other Sith Lords, there were still other Sith, which contradicts nothing as Bane's reformation had two Sith only, Lords or not.


 * You mentioned kolto as a contradiction yet you did not even give an explanation. I'd love to hear it.


 * As for the Darth title, simply because Bane was introduced first does not mean he was the first to use it in the universe of Star Wars. The books, video games, and movies are not published in chronological order.


 * As for that quote from theforce.net, it says that Bane demanded that future Sith take on the title of Darth. It doesn't say he invented the usage, nor does it say that he was the first to use it. It merely states that he and every Sith after him would always use the title. --Nufy8 06:08, 10 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Are you sure you've played the game? First off, there are many more than two Sith Lords in both KOTOR games, just as there were in both the original Sith Empire and Exar Kun's Sith Brotherhood. Your confusion seems to stem from the fact that there are only two Sith to whom everyone answers: Revan and Malak (though Malak, in turn, answers to Revan). This is no different from how Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma were the leaders of the Brotherhood of the Sith, though Ulic was still subservient to Kun.


 * There is no Rule of Two at this time, there's nothing wrong with the usage of "Darth," and what on Earth does kolto have to do with anything?


 * "NO SITH LORDS BEFORE BANE CARRIED THE TITLE." Incorrect. So far, no less than seven Sith Lords carried the title "Darth" before or while Bane did. "BANE CAME FIRST ITS BANE WHO MADE THE NAME." If you've played the game, then you know that this is quite obviously false, as Revan preceded Bane by almost three thousand years.


 * Jedi vs. Sith is not a part of the Tales of the Jedi series. Nor does it say that the galaxy was completely at peace between Exar Kun and Kaan. If it did, this would be a contradiction, for the Battle of Ruusan marked the end of the War of Light and Dark, which in turn was the culmination of one thousand years of galactic warfare.


 * "AND TO THE OTHER GUY I LIKE KOTOR. BUT I CAN SEE WHATS CANNON AND WHATS NOT." Obviously not. Found that LFL statement yet? --Jon Hart 15:16, 10 July 2005 (UTC)


 * First off, please tone down the caps lock usage, we can see just fine. To begin, I'd like to inform you that, yes, there were Sith Lords besides Malak and Revan at the time. This goes for both games. Even if there weren't other Sith Lords, there were still other Sith, which contradicts nothing as Bane's reformation had two Sith only, Lords or not.


 * No. The rest were Dark Jedi. You know when ya fight em it says either Dark Jedi or their name. Such as Yuthera Ban. Once again there were two Darths in KOTOR 1(This is what were arguing)Darth Malak and Darth Revan Master and Apprentace. Thats it. Which contradicts the entire Sith.


 * You mentioned kolto as a contradiction yet you did not even give an explanation. I'd love to hear it.


 * Bacta is the primary and miracle health recovery agent in the Star Wars universe. Kotor makes kolto it which is never mentioned ever as a primary recovery agent.

Just because they make up another widespread healing agent does not mean it is not part of the continuity. EU authors make up crap all the time. You're is one of those typical fanatics, who has their own set view of what the SW history is and anything that changes that view is attacked as "false" simply because that's not what they thought. And besides, to assert that bacta is the ONLY widespread agent used for healing is incredibly dumb on its face.

Kolto plants were known as a strong healing agent on Thyferra, the main bacta manufacturer, thousands of years after KOTOR. There is a blank in between. Maybe kolto emigrated to Thyferra on a ship or something. Or simply enough refinements in the processing and production of bacta may have made it a better treatment, or more economical to use. The existance of kolto in the game in no way contradicts anything to do with bacta, as has been stated. The point is that there is no inconsistency.


 * (If I may interject: The New Rebellion EU novel (Star Wars: The New Rebellion, 1st printing paperback, 1996. Kristine Kathryn Rusch, ISBN 0-553-57414-0) mentions a certain "Pydyrian healing stick" which many believed to be the equal, if not master of bacta. Does this men that The New Rebellion is non-canon, and any book that supports it?)


 * "As for the Darth title, simply because Bane was introduced first does not mean he was the first to use it in the universe of Star Wars. The books, video games, and movies are not published in chronological order."


 * Yeah but Revan and his wars dont fit. Not to mention KOTOR 2 is not in the databank which adds on and expands on KOTOR 1 and Revan thus rendering KOTOR1 an infinity.


 * As for that quote from theforce.net, it says that Bane demanded that future Sith take on the title of Darth. It doesn't say he invented the usage, nor does it say that he was the first to use it. It merely states that he and every Sith after him would always use the title.


 * If KOTOR did fit then why didn't the other Sith Lords on the Battle of Russan have the title DARTH if Revan invinted and the name in contiued as a trend in KOTOR2 why dont the other sith have it or does KOTOR make that not canon?


 * Are you sure you've played the game? First off, there are many more than two Sith Lords in both KOTOR games, just as there were in both the original Sith Empire and Exar Kun's Sith Brotherhood. Your confusion seems to stem from the fact that there are only two Sith to whom everyone answers: Revan and Malak (though Malak, in turn, answers to Revan). This is no different from how Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma were the leaders of the Brotherhood of the Sith, though Ulic was still subservient to Kun. There is no Rule of Two at this time, there's nothing wrong with the usage of "Darth," and what on Earth does kolto have to do with anything?


 * Answered above. Not to mention the True Sith contradicts the EU timeline. All the original Sith were wiped ou tby the Jedi and the Republic none survived accept Naga Sadow who was killed by Naad.


 * "NO SITH LORDS BEFORE BANE CARRIED THE TITLE." Incorrect. So far, no less than seven Sith Lords carried the title "Darth" before or while Bane did. "BANE CAME FIRST ITS BANE WHO MADE THE NAME." If you've played the game, then you know that this is quite obviously false, as Revan preceded Bane by almost three thousand years.


 * 7 non canon Sith Lords yes.


 * ''"AND TO THE OTHER GUY I LIKE KOTOR. BUT I CAN SEE WHATS CANNON AND WHATS NOT." Obviously not. Found that LFL statement yet?


 * Who the blazes are you to tell me what I like and don't? Its just the fact that Im not some dumb ass fanboy who refuses to see the truth. And found an offical LFL statement proving Kotor 1 and 2 are canon? --Anon.


 * Like I said, even if there weren't Sith Lords in KotOR (I'm pretty sure there are), it doesn't matter, because any Sith at all that exceed the number of two would not contradict the rule of two. It's that simple.


 * The KOTOR contradicts itsself. Bastilla basically quotes the rule of two in the game.


 * 2. Bacta and kolto can exist simultaneously - what's wrong with having two different healing agents in the galaxy? It makes sense that there are several ways to heal, as there are several ways to go about other things in the SW universe.


 * 3. KotOR II isn't on the Databank yet because they haven't gotten around to it; they're still doing Episode III content, which is more important.


 * 4. Not all Sith were required to use Darth, some chose to keep their names the way they were. Bane was the one to make it mandatory, so the fact that some Sith Lords after Revan didn't use Darth really isn't a problem.


 * 5. Lastly, there's no need to resort to name calling and accusations of "fan-boy", we've already explained that our position as fans of the game has nothing to do with our argument for it being canon. --Nufy8 04:33, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Ok, after further investingations I can swallow my prode and say I was wrong. KOTOR is canon. As said by Mister Chee keeper of the holocrons in the databank. But It does however have many many non consistant things in it and until these are fully corrected KOTOR forcibaly fits into the timeline.


 * The technology in the game is to advanced for that time period in the Star Wars timeline because just 40 years earlier which is when the comics take place the technology is a lot more ancient and primitive while still have the Star Wars theme. KoTOR has tech the same as 4,000 years later.
 * In the comics the Sith Lord Exar Kun waged a war against the jedi and eventually being defeated after a long and very costly war. In the EU timeline after the Exar Kun war which is know as "The Great Sith War" there is a time of everlasting peace that lasts for 3,000 years until Darth Bane. There is no way there was another war just years after Exar Kun since the Sith were all but eliminated except for a few you hid themselves from the world.
 * The Mandalorians were a joke. In the already established EU from The Tales of the Jedi comics the Mandalorians are almost completely wiped out save for a few remaining ones and for just 20 years after Exar Kun for them to have a huge military machine does not happen.
 * Ok, what is the deal with all of the Jedi being wiped out save a few?

The planets are almost all completely wrong. Tatooine was not settled by outside people until many many years later. Manan came out of nowhere but I guess there is nothing wrong with that. Korriban was screwed up in the way of the Sith and also being settled by those made of Czerka Crop. Kashyyyk with its Czerka corp and such.

Also The Emperor destroyed Katarr and wiped out the Miraluka. Not Nihlius. Also it said Nihilus ripped it of the force completely and left it a barren wasteland devoid of life save for Visas. Now how could this world be rebuilt for the Emp to destroy?

With that I will conclude on one point: the Star Wars databank contains information on every Star Wars novel and game regardless if it fits into the Timeline or not. The KoTOR articels were put in through popular demand, not that they fit in with thte rest. --Anon


 * A. Technology such as?


 * The Revager, The Leviathan. The sith and republic fighters. The ships in TOTJ were clunky, big and rough and had an ancient look to them. unlike the ships in KOTOR which are smooth and look to be from the PT. Also why dont the other Republic ships look like the Revager? That was a Republic Ship pulled out of Malachor by Nihlius was it not?


 * Leviathan was Karath's flagship before he defected. The rest of the Sith warships of its class were apparently produced by the Star Forge. --Jon Hart 03:56, 16 July 2005 (UTC)


 * B. Where does it say that there was 3,000 years of peace?


 * The Star Wars Essential Chronology, by Kevin J. Anderson and Daniel Wallace, copyright 2000, from Del Rey Books --Anon.


 * TEC is an in-universe document. It can have flaws. --Jon Hart 03:56, 16 July 2005 (UTC)


 * C. The Mandalorian Wars were 35 years after the Great Sith War. According to Tales of the Jedi, surving Mandalorians from a battle on Onderon fled to the Dxun moon, where a new Mandalore rose to power. This makes sense, as, according to KotOR II, the Mandalorians first attacked Dxun to begin the Mandalorian Wars. So, not all Mandalorians were in that battle on Onderon, and were able to enter Republic space to regroup with any survivors from the battle at Onderon.


 * 40 years. No the Mandalorian Wars had been raging, Duxn was the first battle for the Jedi. Ok I accept that they could regroup but in 40 years go from a struggling army to a powerful militray machine is bull. A powerful militray machine that has enough might to cause a Galactic War. --Anon.


 * D. What about it?


 * Lets see how a great Jedi Purge isn't documented anywhere. The only time the Jedi were "Purged" was when Anakin and Palpy did it. --Anon.


 * Wrong. Try playing The Sith Lords. Oooh, look: Jedi purge! --Jon Hart 03:56, 16 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Planets: Tatooine was settled when KotOR claims. The reasons for people being there go hand-in-hand with its Databank entry, which explains those things. And as for Korriban, Kashyyyk, and Manaan, those are simply personal opinions. There are no signs of contradiction.


 * "The first settlers of the planet -- called "oldsters" in local folklore -- sought to turn a profit by exploiting the ore found beneath the sands. "


 * How does that fit with KOTOR? For Korriban all the Sith Lords apparently were buried in the same tomb (Tales of the Jedi : Golden Age of the Sith) Kashyyk was never put under slave manegment by a corrupt company. Its stated in the databank that the only dark times were when The Empire took control. And I said Mannan was ok.


 * Yes the locations in the Valley of the Sith contradict it


 * "Kashyyk was never put under slave manegment by a corrupt company." Wrong. Play the game. --Jon Hart 03:56, 16 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Katarr was just a colony world, so there were plenty of Miraluka left after Nihilus destroyed it. Due to the race's Force-sensitivity, the majority of the species was wiped out by Palpatine during the Jedi Purge. --Jon Hart 00:30, 12 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Then KOTOR2 contradicts this cause Visas said Nihilius completly wiped out her people. Meaning she was the last Miraluka in the galaxy. From theforce.net


 * that the LucasArts website for Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords indicates that the Miraluka died out some 4,000 years before the Battle of Yavin.*


 * this planet was one of the LAST known colonies worlds of the Miraluka. Unfortunately, the entire population of Katarr was destroyed by a Sith battle force many years before the Great Sith War. Only Visas Marr was spared, although she never learned why her people were killed or why she was chosen to live.*

Notice last meaning they were hunted down by Nihlius.


 * 1. A ship like the Leviathan did have a sleeker look, yes, but sleeker doesn't mean it's more technologically advanced. Many Republic ships still had an ugly look to them, so I'm assuming that some were prototypical, and with the Star Forge Malak could make more of those advanced versions.

The Leviathan is exusable cause a point can be made that it was a Star Forge ship. But The Ravager and Nilhius fleet are inexusable. All his ships were ripped from Malachor meaning they are Republic and Mandalorian ships that look like Star Destroyers. While all the other tech is crap.


 * 2. Does a character say that there is an age of peace or is it meant as fact?

Meant as fact. Kotor takes a big **** on Kevin Anderson. And although his works a **** they are already established in the timeline. The fact that there were 2 galactic wars and the galaxy simply *forgot* about them in bull. Until someone from LFL fixes that its still an problem.


 * 3. KotOR occurs 40 years after The Great Sith War, but the Mandalorian Wars ended 5 years before the game.

Ok.


 * 4. The purge wasn't even referred to as such, it's just a way to describe what happened to the Jedi at the time. A Great Purge like the one Vader carried out was more of a hunting-down than anything, most Jedi before KotOR II were annihilated in one swift stroke.

Thats what Sion and Nihlius where doing hunting the Jedi down. Vrook even says that they were hunting them. In KOTOR2 the Jedi are all but destroyed. And by two SITH lords no less. Now is that not an important event?


 * 5. Tatooine is referred to as a settlement that was supposed to be rich in some kind of ore, but by KotOR that ore had been depleted to a low level. Korriban may have some problems, but it isn't anything significant. There was no documentation of slavers on Kashyyyk because there just wasn't. Including an event like that just adds to the universe without really contradicting anything imporant.

Ah ya it is signifigant. Korriban is a very important planet in the Star Wars universe. It was where Exar Kun fell. It was where Bane increased his knowledge of the Sith and in KOTOR2 its said that its a gateway planet to the Ancient Sith Empire. So if they can't do it right then dont do it at all. So it can **** on stuff just as long as its not a big event. A huh. You seem to keep saying well Kotor can add and contradict stuff just as long as its really important.


 * 6. Still not seeing where the Emperor destroyed Katarr. Did a quick Google search and nothing came up. Nufy8 17:33, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

From theforce.net

Miraluka

Category: Alien Races Planet of Origin: Alpheridies

a race native to the planet Alpheridies, they are born without eyes. However, through the use of the Force, they can see as well as any sighted race. Outwardly, the average Miraluka individual appeared to be a normal Human, with a decorative veil covering their face. They original Miraluka migrated to Alpherides several millennia before the Great Sith War, fleeing a planet which was geologically and tectonically unstable. Their innate abilities with the Force were brought to the forefront as genetic mutations brought on by Abron's infrared radiation eliminated their eyes. Very few Miraluka ever left the Alpherides, choosing not to disrupt their equilibrium. When Emperor Palpatine instituted his Jedi Purge, many Miraluka were killed or forced into hiding, and they remained aloof from the rest of the galaxy for many decades afterward. Note that the LucasArts website for Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords indicates that the Miraluka died out some 4,000 years before the Battle of Yavin. Source Abbreviations Listing FNU, TOJC, PJSB, UANT, LAWS

For more information, please read or view the following material(s):

LucasArts Entertainment Company website (www.lucasarts.com), from LucasArts Entertainment Company

Power of the Jedi Sourcebook, by J.D. Wiker, et. al., copyright 2002, from Wizards of the Coast

Tales of the Jedi Companion, by Geogre R. Strayton, copyright 1996, from West End Games

Tales of the Jedi: The Freedon Nadd Uprising, by Tom Veitch, Tony Akins, and Denis Rodier, copyright 1994, from Dark Horse Comics

Ultimate Alien Anthology, by Eric Cagle, et. Al., copyright 2003, from Wizards of the Coast


 * The Unofficial Star Wars Encyclopedia isn't canon. --Jon Hart 03:56, 16 July 2005 (UTC)


 * "C-canon is pretty much everything in the Expanded Universe; SW books, comics, and games. Games are a special case as generally only the stories are C-canon while things like stats and gameplay are N-canon." --Kross 18:12, July 18, 2005 (UTC)


 * The Unofficial Star Wars Encyclopedia is just that: unofficial. It's a fan-made resource, not an officially licensed Star Wars product, so the official canon hierarchy doesn't apply to it. For all its usefulness, it is essentially fanfiction. --Jon Hart 19:29, 18 July 2005 (UTC)


 * And so is Wikipedia ya being of lower-than-average intelligence. And your article stating whats canon and whats not. You have no power Jon Hart. You misprinted a a passage by Dan Wallace and put in way out of context. So before you make articles get your damn facts right.


 * I understand you've already conceded the debate (and I applaud the maturity inherent in your ability to accept your defeat with such grace and good manners), but, if I may, I'd still like to inquire what on Earth you're talking about. What, for instance, is this "article stating whats [sic] canon and whats [sic] not"? I have neither presented nor created any such article. Furthermore, I cannot help but admit a small amount of sadness about the fact that you seem to think I misprinted the relevant quotation of the estimable Dan Wallace. I assure you, I have quoted Mr. Wallace verbatim, and invite you to follow the link I posted along with his words in order to confirm this. I'd also welcome any insight you could share into precisely how his words were taken out of context. Thank you for your consideration, and God bless. --Jon Hart 16:19, 20 July 2005 (UTC)


 * I left both Revan's gender and the light side/dark side ending ambiguous in the NEC. Honestly, this was just player bias on my part -- I probably should have been more specific considering this is a history book, but KOTOR was such a fun gaming experience that I felt I would be stepping on toes by officializing what was an open-ended experience. That said, LFL has told me that the official continuity stance on KOTOR is: Mr. Revan, light-side ending. 


 * Ya see in his yet to be printed NEC. He puts Revans ending as player choice. Now although he states LFL told him that Revans ending was LightSide with no offical statement, he put Revans ending as PLAYER CHOICE. That means its PLAYER CHOICE. If he was contradicting something LFL would correct him. But in the end when the book is opened it will say PLAYER CHOICE. Not LS ending. And that being a history book is the history of that era. And I have won fool I proved my point and proved the unaccuracy in KOTOR.So have a nice day and, God Bless. --Anon


 * "But in the end when the book is opened it will say PLAYER CHOICE." Um, no, it won't say either way. See, in the Star Wars universe, Revan was a real person, not a video game character, so writing in an in-universe document that the end of the Second Sith War is "PLAYER CHOICE" would make precious little sense. The New Essential Chronology won't confirm Revan's sex and Force alignment either way, but the absence of a fact in no way means that that fact is untrue. And since LFL's official stance on the situation trumps everyone else's lack of a statement either way, we have our canon proof for male/light side. - Jon Hart 21:58, 22 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Please tell me where your proof is aside from just fan speculation. Where did LFL say in an offical statement or in the databanks that Revan is infact Male and Lightside. Oh thats right aside from Dan Wallace which has been discussed you have no proof so its best we end this and you shut the fuck up.


 * Ouch, someone better take away that tongue of yours before you cut yourself with it. Seriously, have you ever considered going into politics? People can't buy a laugh this good. But, sadly, the joke's wearing thin, so I bid you adieu, O cunning debater of the silver tongue, and leave you with these words of wisdom that I feel adequately summarize the glorious time we have spent here together: OMGROTFLMFAO!
 * All my love,
 * --Jon Hart

Tech levels and the Miraluka
Anon, disparate tech levels is a chronic problem in Star Wars, thanks to George Lucas himself; ever notice how much more advanced and high-tech vessels/droids/weapons look in the prequels than in the original trilogy? So get off that point, and find some decent arguments. --Maru 18:01, 12 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Thats due to bad technology in the 80's. Also if you even read a EU comic/novel about Battle of Yavin and beyond you'll learn that all the tech in the OT plus is still supirior to PT tech. So no I wont get off it cause its still something inconsitant with KOTOR. And I have decent arguments you just come in with a random intergection that is wrong. So unless you have something useful to say bye.


 * Unfortunately, yes, it appears as if there is a contradiction between when the Miraluka died out, but that's for LFL to decide which is true. You're making it seem like the entire storyline of KotOR and its sequel is a contradiction, when truth be told for all of the history it presents it does pretty well to avoid contradiction. Like one can expect, something with that much content is bound to cause a discrepancy somewhere. This Miraluka thing is really the only significant problem I've seen so far. And as for Korriban: I didn't mean the planet wasn't important, I meant the exact placement of the tombs wasn't.


 * Edit: Unfortunately I'll be gone until Friday, so I'll let someone else debate for me :). On second thought, judging from the size of this page, things seem to be just going in circles. You admitted that it was canon, and I'll admit there are some contradictions. Let's just end it at that. Moving along, if someone could find out which fate of the Miraluka LFL considers canon, that would be cool. --Nufy8 16:55, 13 July 2005 (UTC)


 * There's no contradiction with the Miraluka. As I already said, Katarr was just a colony world. Visas was the only survivor of that world. She was never the only Miraluka alive in the galaxy. --Jon Hart 03:56, 16 July 2005 (UTC)


 * The LucasArts KotOR II website says that she "is the lone surviving member of her species." Wouldn't this include every Miraluka in the galaxy? --Nufy8 04:02, 16 July 2005 (UTC)


 * That statement by itself is in error. It must mean "the lone surviving member of her species from Katarr," or some such. --Jon Hart 00:19, 17 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Visas Marr
 * A Dark Jedi Miraluka from the Mid-Rim world of Katarr, Visas Marr is the lone surviving member of her species.


 * http://www.lucasarts.com/games/swkotor_sithlords/indexDark.html


 * No from Katarr or some such.


 * Yes, as I said, the "lone surviving member of her species" statement by itself is in error. The writer obviously forgot to add "from Katarr" to the end of the sentence. Just consider it a typo or an incomplete thought, it's not that big a deal. --Jon Hart 19:29, 18 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Um no. I wont think of it as a typo if it was a typo it would have been corrected by now. And it is a big deal since KOTOR states Nihlius destroyed the Miriluka and established EU say Palpy did it. --Anon.


 * Where in The Sith Lords does it state Nihilus wiped out all the Miraluka? It says he destroyed a Miralukan colony world (Katarr), which is a completely distinct and separate from saying he destroyed the Miraluka home world (Alpheridies). If you find considering it a typo distasteful, then think of it as incomplete thought. Or don't think of it at all. I care not. Jon Hart 20:42, 18 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Visas Marr is the lone surviving member of her species.


 * A huh. I get it your to much of a imperialist running dog to admit that you are wrong. Imcomplete thought? Blast you buddy. Thats just ridicules. If it was a typo or incomplete thought it would have been corrected in the time that site has been up. Why would a Lucasarts site have such a glaring mistake on it? You just don't want to admit your wrong plain and simple. I tire of arguing with a ignorant, fanboy such as you. You buddy can apply neagative pressure to my oblate spheroids.


 * Read this. Once you have, stop arguing. Thank you. --Nufy8 16:06, 19 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, that was easy. --Jon Hart 16:57, 19 July 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't give a [do you kiss your mother with that mouth?] about Wikipedia, as you can see Im not a user. I proved why Im right and thats it. OOOHHHH I'll get banned WOW. Way to crush my dreams buddy. So both of you can take your tounge and take one big lick of my [why would anyone want to taste your burro? :( ].


 * You don't care about Wikipedia, and yet you're relentless in trying to prove your point by bastardizing the article to your own personal liking, and instigating flames on its talk page. I won't even begin trying to make sense of that. If you truly do not care, it would be in your best interests to leave. --Nufy8 17:42, 19 July 2005 (UTC)


 * By correcting some idiots mistake. Yes, people come to this crap ass site and think this crap is real when its just made by some faggot who can't get his facts straight. And what will you do if I dont leave? You really can't do a damn thing. So its best for you to just shut the fuck up and sit in the corner and pleasure my sinister walnut, Nufy.


 * Well, this is as good of a sign as any that the debate has come to a close, and with one side calling the other childish names and asking them to lick reproductive organs, it's pretty clear that our friend has submitted to defeat (even after I proposed a compromise, no less). Have fun, my work is done here. --Nufy8 15:55, 20 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Submitted defeate how is it a defeate when you just said you'd call a comprimise? If anything I've won I proved my point.


 * Nufy is pointing out how you came here intending to prove the KotORs non-canon, and failed. Miserably. --Maru 02:17, 21 July 2005 (UTC)


 * No you entity of beclouded perception; I came in here and intending to prove Revans ending is player choice and won. Canon came up along the way which I if you payed attention admitted was. The only thing you did was try to prove the tech wrong, and failed. Miserably.


 * I'm not an admin or anyone else in a position of power, but I think you both need to read this. --Lord Patrick 02:49, 13 August 2005 (UTC)