Talk:Revolutionary Girl Utena/Archive 1

Lacking manga information
I see that many facts in Saito's beautiful novels are ignored. I would think that about 79% of this article is focused on the anime series, 17% is dedicated to the movie, leaving a very small segment or two for the graphic novels. Please keep things balanced on Wikipedia.

Goodyfun (talk) 20:11, 10 March 2008 (UTC)goodyfun

Adolescence of Utena??
The article refers to "Adolescence of Utena" as the name of the movie. However, as the article states, the Japanese title is "Adolescence Mokushiroku." The official English title is, in fact, "Utena the Movie." As far as I know, "Adolescence of Utena" refers to the manga that came out at the same time as the movie, but is not synonymous with the movie. I'd change it, but I'm not 100% sure on this. Anyone else know?

For that matter, the Adolescence of Utena manga ought to be mentioned somewhere, since most other iterations of Utena are. - DeathQuaker 8 November 2006, 12:10 AM (EST)
 * I just watched the movie, and the phrase "Adolescence of Utena" appears in the beginning as a title. It's true that the packaging itself makes no mention of the name, though.  --Starwed 10:24, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

The Genon released OST for the movie has on the spine: Genon Pioneer Utena Movie: Adolescence of Utena Adolescence Rush 5233-2 I don't know how useful that information is... --Tyrfing 20:26, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

In Japan, the english title is "Adolescence of Utena" and it was meant to be the official english title in other countries as well, but the official USA release has "Revolutionary Girl Utena : The Movie" on the box and just shows the "adolescence of Utena" as a title card. 65.189.255.148 (talk) 06:35, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Questions and Edits
Question 1: Is it me, or is the "Movie" section at the bottom redundant, considering it's discussed at the top? Someone braver than I ought to perhaps remove it. Also, I'm wondering if eventually this article should be separated into three different articles about the two mangas, the TV series, and the movie, as they are all separate canons.

Question 2: Way at the bottom, it mentions that Ikuhara denies connection to Rose of Versailles in the commentary. I'm fairly certain they do acknowledge a connection (if a minimal one). Anyone sure about this?

I went through this and cleaned up some language and corrected some minor factual errors (sometimes anime, movie, and manga got confused). Speculative comments were made more clearly speculative or removed (e.g., Ruka "dying" at the end of his arc in the anime; it's arguable whether that is actually true or as true as any other "Shadow Play" is). Added, as mentioned below, a brief blurb on Tatsuya and Mari. I pretty much ignored the themes section and beyond because I need to go to bed. :) I removed the "weird facts" from the entries on Utena, Akio, and Anthy. For the first two, they were inaccurate at best and unnecessarily silly at worst (Akio says "Ciao" in one scene in the movie and that's it. That does not a "habit" make). Come on people: we need necessary silliness here. Please try to improve.


 * In the original Japanese, Akio says "Tou!" in the movie, whatever that means. "Ciao" is what the dub has him say. -Tacubus (talk) 14:40, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I removed the "stub" warning at the bottom. Pretty obvious this is longer than a stub now. -- DeathQuaker 8 November 2006, 12:10 AM (EST)

The Two Reporters
At the end of the movie, the two reporters (the pink-haired shadow girls) turned into dolls made of hay. When they close up to their name tags it said "Utena" and "Anthy" in katakana. What does that mean? Jigen III 11:08, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
 * No idea, and I suggest you take it to a message board. Wikipedia talk pages are for discussing the article, not the subject itself.  Thanks. Ladlergo 13:46, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

The Car
It said Shiori on the license plate, not Kozue. Jigen III 12:31, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe they mean the car near the beginning of the movie, not during the big climax scene. --Katsuhagi 02:32, 4 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The car in the darkened garage in the film says Kozue. The one that chases Utena, crashes, and explodes says Shiori. The "Kozue" label is one of the film's inexplicable moments if you haven't seen the TV series. When Kozue appears in the bath tub with Miki and tries to cut his throat, she isn't named. No (sigh) it's not trivia... it is one of a great many covert linkages between the film and preceding TV series and manga.


 * Another occurs very early in the film when Wakaba is showing Utena around Ohtori, and Utena stops on some stairs, turns her head, and asks an incomplete question about the campus, only to be interupted by the Miki-Juri fencing match. If one stops the film to see what Utena is looking at, there in the background are some of the columns of the "old" Ohtori from the TV show. Yet another occurs when, for a moment, we see a locket around Juri's throat -- it's her locket from the film. In the film Nanami is actually a cow; in the TV series, she only wears a cowbell. There are many more examples like these.


 * Thus, the film is a kind of karmic repetition of the same story as the TV show, except that this it works out differently.


 * Timothy Perper 17:00, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Rose Color
I've seen multiple Utena sites that list the color of the rose each duelist wears and some of the symbolism behind that color. I'm going to quickly add the rose color for each and perhaps later go deeper into it if it's deemed necessary.--Katsuhagi 00:47, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
 * This doesn't seemed to be mentioned on the page at all; given the extremely heavy use of each duelist's colour, it should be. --Starwed 10:27, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Add Dios?
Even though he's technically not physical or real for that matter, should we add a section on Dios? I think he's still important even as just a spirit of sorts and in how he helps Utena regularly. I see that was already done at some point. Never mind. --Katsuhagi 20:02, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Sega and Episodes
I've removed the episode list; none of the other anime pages have lists. It was just sort of an ugly infodump, and didn't seem encyclopedic. We don't list chapters for books, so why list episodes for anime? (What we do for Star Trek doesn't count; Star Trek doesn't really have an overarching plot.) -Pyrop 03:21, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC)

That information is now at Revolutionary Girl Utena media information. -&#8472;yrop (talk) 22:50, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)

Concerning the movie soundtrack; while the bulk of it was quite good (especially the "love theme", Toki Ni Ai Wa (At Times, Love Is), and the new duel themes are riveting and filled with the same brashness and neo-philisophical lyrics we come to expect from Ikuhara and Seazer, some fans feel the movie version of Zettai Unmei Mokushiroku (Absolute Destiny Apocalypse) falls short. By fusing 20th-century semitonal techniques with the classic Seazer "choral rock" style, it attempts to be something new and unique; however, while unique, the work can be grating at times, and the horror-movie-esque quality it gives doesn't really fit the scene in which it is used, in some opinions. --Gau 05:36, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Sega was a major funder of Shoujo Kakumei Utena; not only did they sponsor the series, but also funded the creation of a set of action figures (the "Real Doll" series, which included a CD), provided major financial support for the movie, and even created a Sega Saturn game (which is highly prized by collectors.)

Plot summary
I have a VERY long plot summary (near 10 pages). Replace the stub with it, or is it too long? --Jed Blue, 20 May 2005
 * Sounds a little too long to me. DenisMoskowitz 15:14, 2005 May 20 (UTC)
 * Sounds FAR too long to me. -&#8472;yrop (talk) 17:56, May 20, 2005 (UTC)

ToSumarize into paragraphs and post a link here.

Might want to add to it.

Most of the Utena page, including the summary, is about the anime/movie. Shall I split the article into two - manga and anime - or is it better to rewrite the text? My opinion only - agree/disagree? Merry
 * I'd say rewrite, maybe making Anime and Manga sections. DenisMoskowitz 13:53, 2005 August 23 (UTC)

Amercian fans?Nani?!?
Why the hell we list that?

It's throwaway. Unneeded.

About the episode list?

Why?

Why not list the manga And the anime seperatly, nonlisted? Just say (There are X episodes of the animė, x books in the manga."

I think there are too many highly speculative and meaningless bits of info on some random fans interpretations. There's nothing encylopedic about a few people thinking that the whole thing is in anthy's head or the whole school being some kind of purgatory. If encyclopedia's needed that kind of speculation, you'd have a whole section on the show being a bunch of empty promises of character development followed by random uses of symbolism and foreign words that sounded cool. 66.41.66.213 03:56, 15 October 2005 (UTC)lotusduck

Shiori Takatsuki
I don't think Shiori's last name is ever revealed to be Takatsuki, especialy seeing as how Takatsuki is a character in the series, and one of the Black Rose Duelists.


 * Shiori's last name is revealed as "Takatsuki" by signage; the name is never in dialogue, but it is the name on her room, and official sources back this up as well. The other character you're thinking of here is "Tsuwabuki." - Rikoshi 22:39, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Could you add a citation for this? Susan Davis 18:54, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Given that everything is coming out of official sources, I don't think we need a citation.
 * I noticed her name when I rewatched it just the other day. Ladlergo
 * Yep. Episode 17. DeathQuaker

About the Takarazuka Musical
I have been wondering if it was available in Japan on DVD ? Or if there was any other way to watch it ? I have only listened to the songs from the Saa, Watashi to Engage Shite CD, and it only left me pandering for more... Ialdaboth 15:37, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Themes section
The Themes section had been edited to claim that "At its center, Shoujo Kakumei Utena is a Mahayana Buddhist allegory." This claim is original research, and not NPOV: there is no one correct interpretation of the series or the movie. This section could certainly be re-added as a "possible interpretations" bit or something, but not in the given phrasing. DenisMoskowitz 23:15, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Likewise, there's a lot said about Gnosticism in that section, none of which is sourced, either. I'm not an expert in Wikipedia citation style, but the whole article could stand a top-to-bottom once-over by someone who is, adding appropriate citiations in the right places. Susan Davis 18:53, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The director's commentary on some of the DVDs can shed some light and provide citations. But he's often cryptic, too. Michiganotaku 15:28, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

about utena and anthy
dont know but i think utena and anthy seems to be lesbian. they kinda treat each other like lovers. and also that girl with red long hair loved her old girlfriend that stole her boyfriend, and she took her picture for years in her necklace. also the boys of the black rose or whatever it is, call themselves the rose bride. this is a homosexual movie or what.

lori, albania


 * Yes, Utena and Anthy are clearly depicted as a romantic couple. The article discusses shoujo-ai (lesbian) and shonen-ai (gay male) themes and pairings in Utena. --FOo 04:04, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


 * While are clearly depicted as a romantic couple...in the sense that they are frequently depicted as Prince Utena with Princess-ey Anthy (and how much more romantic can you get), whether they are a romantic couple is still subjective. Utena and Anthy's relationship is left ambiguous in most of the media.  There's plenty of imagery etc. to the effect that they are lovers.  However, there is also a near (but not quite) equal amount that indicates that they are both heterosexual and that their relationship is platonic.  What would be not subjective?  (1) A straightforward statement by the creators, which doesn't exist.  SKU was a collaborative work and the two major voices from the creating group don't agree in clear un-ambiguous terms that the U & A are lesbians.  (Although, sadly, I think it's noteworthy that some of what Ikuhara has said on the subject is pretty disastrous or, well, insensitive.  For example, I think I remember him saying in an interview that he had them kiss at the end of the movie because he thought it would be sexy.  I gather that's a joke, but, well, I'll leave my aside at that.)  I know I remember Ikuhara saying that he prefers to avoid his female protagonists having relationships with guys because he feels the relationship tends to become the focus and take over the plot.  Got that interview saved somewhere.  (I personally feel this must apply equally to a homosexual relationship--it can obstruct a more nuanced interpretation.)  Anyway, the point is that their exact relationship is subjective and there's reason to believe that was intentional based on Ikuhara's & Saito's statements over the years.  (2) A straightforward scene with unambiguous dialog in all the different media.  Which doesn't exist, but on the other hand...it's pretty clear you're meant to see U & A that way at least some of the time.  Homosexuality is certainly a major theme in the show. 199.44.153.1 (talk) 15:37, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Wait, where is the evidence that they're heterosexual? I'm definitely not seeing that at all -- not explicitly, and not in the larger context of a show in which almost every character has bisexual moments. At any rate, I agree, though I would consider their relationship to be strongly _suggested_. 74.124.41.231 (talk) 14:59, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

two notes about the movie
first, touga: it's not clear that he's "come back to life" in the movie. it can easily be read that he is a hallucination of utena. i'm pretty sure that in all scenes involving him and other people, they're not actually interacting with him -- they may speak or maybe he speaks, but they don't *converse*. second, wakaba: wakaba appears at the end of the movie as the jeep-like vehicle on which all utena's friends are riding. (the license plate reads "wakaba")
 * He has one scene in which he interacts with Shiori.
 * Fixed the mention of Wakaba in the movie. Ladlergo 03:20, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * He also interacts/flirts with Anthy up in the pool area, in the presence of Utena, after a water pipe bursts (in fact, this contributes to Utena's conclusion that Anthy "stole" Touga from her). Etcetera 19:03, 2 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The other ...ghosts (for lack of a better word) seem to be able to see him, however he is clearly not there to most of the regular people. Miki has never even heard of him. And Akio didn't "Come Back to Life" either. He was still buried in the garden. Anthy is apparently exempt from this rule. --Tyrfing 19:30, 12 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Juri mentions Touga in her duel with Utena (if I remember correctly), and Shiori interacts with him more than once. -Tacubus (talk) 14:48, 25 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Juri mentions Touga because Shiori mentioned Touga to her in the car garage to induce Juri to challenge Utena. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.44.153.1 (talk) 15:38, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

About Be-Papas
I feel like the article lacks some substantial info about Be-Papas. How and for what purpose was Be-papas created ? Who was the driving force behind it (ikuhara I can guess too but some clear references about it and about the roles of the rest of the staff would be great, too) ? How was Be-paspas involved in the different stages of the Utena project and afterward, in the S to M no sekai manga ? Does Be-papas still exist nowaday, will it resume one day or not ? There is so much questions about the background of the creation of the show..
 * Well, given that I know nothing about them and don't know anyone who does... Ladlergo 23:22, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I imagine if all that is to be answered, it ought to be described in a separate Wikipedia article and referenced here. DeathQuaker

No love for the Onion Prince?
Tatsuya, is seen more then once in the series and he is the star of an episode. I believe he also should get a character description, since he is the "boy that replaces Utena" in the movie that Wakaba is usually seen hanging out with. Not to mention, only because of Tatsuya do we see that Mikage doesn't take any pawn delivered to him. Mikage even goes as far to say the boy has a pure heart. Which is very uncharacteristic of the cold calculating Mikage.
 * I added a brief description of him and Mari Hozumi. Someone knowledgeable needs to add the kanji for their names, though. DeathQuaker

Complete list of Utena manga and anime
There is a complete list of English-language and Japanese manga and anime for Revolutionary Girl Utena in Mechademia: An Academic Form for Anime, Manga, and the Fan Arts, 2006, pages 169-170. The list was compiled by Martha Cornog and me -- we're book review editors for the journal.

There is also an article in the issue about Utena by Kotani Mari:

Kotani Mari 2006 Metamorphosis of the Japanese girl: The girl, the hyper-girl, and the battling beauty. Mechademia, 1:162-169.

Timothy Perper 05:39, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Remastered
It seems that Revolutionary Girl Utena is being re-released in Japan as remastered DVD box sets. Somebody who knows more Japanese than me could properly add that info to the article. MayumiTsuji (talk) 18:03, 16 June 2008 (UTC)MayumiTsuji

English manga info
At the end of volume 1 of the manga there is information on the themes that the creators intended to cover. This could go in a development section about the manga. WhisperToMe (talk) 04:30, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Review(s)
5 Brilliantly Perverted Manga, Jason Thompson --KrebMarkt 06:55, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

EX review --Gabriel Yuji (talk) 16:57, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Utena origins, and movie
You guys might want to look for 2000 references recording Ikuhara's comments at Otakon that year, given these emails:

> It's [Revolutionary Girl Utena] directed by Ikuhara, one of Anno's good friends. I call it the Shoujo EVA. Ikuhara actually caled it that himself at Otakon this year. He made the Utena movie as revenge against Anno. He wanted to make something seriously dented, and I think he accomplished just that...

http://eva.onegeek.org/pipermail/oldeva/2000-August/037218.html

"The manga ideas came first, though I don't think the author really produced much before the anime. Ikuhara tempted the author away from GAiNAX (I wish I could remember the guy's name...Hasegawa? I know he was the character designer for the anime) and they worked together rather stealthily on the anime because Ikuhara was still under contract for Sailor Moon (and he didn't want Anno to find out).  So I guess my answer is the Utena manga *idea* came first, but the anime took hold and then the real manga began."

http://eva.onegeek.org/pipermail/oldeva/2000-August/037228.html --Gwern (contribs) 01:55 3 September 2011 (GMT)

Manga Impact
Manga Impact: The World of Japanese Animation, 6 December 2010, ISBN 978-0714857411; pg 230;

Utena Tenjo is not of this world, nor does she belong to the world of conventional fairytales. Her life was marked by a solitary childhood and, it is suggested, complicity in the death of both her parents. Then, following a kiss at her parents' graveside, a mysterious prince puts a ring on her finger with the seal of a rose and promises to meet her again. Once grown-up, Utena decides not to wait and proclaims herself a prince. With her pink hair and watery blue eyes, she wears a male uniform as a sign of absolute devotion to her love, as she transfers to Ohtori Academy. After crossing swords with one of the good-looking boys at the school (a member of student council) and battling for possession of his girlfriend, she wins control over the disquieting Anthy Himemiya, a student known as the 'Rose Bride'. An immaculately conceived creature from the imagination of director Ikuhara Kunihiko, with the support of the Be-Papas group, Utena is the lead character of a shojo manga by Saito Chiho. The television anime Revolutionary Girl Utena tells a different story from the film, The Adolescence of Utena (1999). A successor to Sailor Moon (1992, dir. Sato Junichi et al), the series is a world apart from typical pop culture, with its intriguing heroine a victim of Ikuhara's unpredictable imagination. She is similar to the protagonist of Rose of Versailles (1979, dir. Nagahama Tadao et al) and Princess Knight (1967), a woman able to renounce her masculinity, but in love with princely attitudes - a pop icon called to shake up an entire system of codes. Even her language springs from Ikuhara's contaminated readings and visions, such as when he tells Utena to be run-run in homage to the lead character of Hana no Ko Lunlun (Flower Angel, 1979, dir. Endo Yuji). M.A.R. [Mario A. Rumor]

--Gwern (contribs) 19:49 23 December 2011 (GMT)

Utena Yuri?
What the fuck? Utena is not yuri. The yuri scenes have symbolic connotations.

it's not shojo either... lol — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.22.221.240 (talk) 01:03, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Yuri: "(slang, anime, manga) A narrative or visual work featuring a romance or sexual relationship between two or more females." Utena is an anime that features a romance between Utena and Anthy, two women, therefore it is yuri. Not only that, but Utena is well respected in the yuri community and is considered yuri by said community ~ NewPollution96 (8:18, 29 July 2016)


 * It's well established in the Yuri genre, or did you miss the part where Utena and Anthy make -out naked on a motorcycle at the end of the movie? This feels like hate bait and should probably be removed from the talk section at this point. ButterflyNebula (talk) 19:12, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Sources for expansion
Some sources for use in expanding the article, organised pretty haphazardly:


 * General reception
 * http://www.japanator.com/classic-anime-spotlight-revolutionary-girl-utena-9321.phtml
 * http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/feature/2016-01-20/which-anime-made-you-cry/.97780
 * http://www.themarysue.com/shoujo-anime-and-manga-part-2/
 * http://www.themarysue.com/steven-universe-and-fandom/ (some mention of how Steven Universe homages it)
 * http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/feature/2015-07-31/why-are-anime-fans-obsessed-with-steven-universe/.91130
 * http://interviewly.com/i/rebecca-sugar-aug-2014-reddit
 * http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-news/2013/04/08/pictures-of-utena-and-penguindrum-exhibit-in-ikebukero


 * Student Council Saga
 * http://www.animefringe.com/magazine/00.04/reviews/3/index.php3
 * http://www.animefringe.com/magazine/00.08/reviews/3/index.php3
 * http://www.japanator.com/japanator-recommends-revolutionary-girl-utena-pt-1-19671.phtml
 * http://www.fandompost.com/2011/06/03/revolutionary-girl-utena-collection-1-dvd-review/


 * Black Rose Saga
 * http://www.animefringe.com/magazine/02.12/reviews/5/index.php3
 * http://www.japanator.com/japanator-recommends-revolutionary-girl-utena-pt-2-3-21416.phtml (also Apocalypse)


 * Manga
 * http://www.sequentialtart.com/archive/feb02/ao_0202_7.shtml


 * Soundtrack
 * http://www.animefringe.com/magazine/2004/12/review/13.php

Suggest giving dub separate paragraph in Reception, maybe also a separate paragraph for later remasters.


 * Academic stuff
 * Anime from Akira to Howl's Moving Castle, Updated Edition
 * Anime Classics Zettai!
 * Mechademia 1: Emerging Worlds of Anime and Manga
 * "Metamorphosis of the Japanese Girl: The Girl, the Hyper-Girl, and the Battling Beauty"
 * "In the Sound of the Bells: Freedom and Revolution in Revolutionary Girl Utena"
 * Channeling Wonder: Fairy Tales on Television


 * "Gender and Sexuality in Shoujo Manga: Undoing Heteronormative Expectations in Utena, Pet Shop of Horrors, and Angel Sanctuary", Emily M. Hurford
 * "Anime pleasure as a playground of sexuality, power, and resistance", Lien Fan Shen
 * "Prince Charming by Day, Superheroine by Night? Subversive Sexualities and Gender Fluidity in Revolutionary Girl Utena and Sailor Moon", Catherine E. Bailey

I'm hoping to take a crack at it at some point, but they might come in handy for anyone else who wants to improve the article. Also, I outright don't have access to most of the books. – The Millionth One (talk) (contribs) 06:21, 22 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I'd also like to expand on the Reception/ Impact section since this series has had major influences on western animation in recent years such as Adventure Time, My Little Pony Friendship is Magic, Steven Universe, and Star VS. The Forces of Evil.ButterflyNebula (talk) 19:15, 21 March 2017 (UTC)