Talk:Reza Shah

Confusing
"Two years after the 1921 Persian coup d'état, led by Zia ol Din Tabatabaee" - this is inconsistent with the previous section, in which it was led by Reza Shah.

Relations with Germany
The guy was an unspeakable fascist and a clear Nazi sympathizer. To say he dispised the Nazis is just naive. I've added NPOV tag to the corresponding section. --Sennaista 20:50, 1 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Do not listen to this Sennaista. Reza Shah was a fierce king but not a fascist and clearly not Nazi sympathizer. If you read Iranian history you know that Iran was under influence of British and Russian empires which tried hard to compete in gaining control of Iran for certain purposes. This struggle made Iranian government weak and corrupted, ordinary people to suffer, Iranian economy weak and Central government control loose. Highway men were everywhere and people safety in danger. In this time Reza shah who was an army officer took power from weak and corrupted Qajar kings and introduced himself king. He was harsh on highway men, separatist movements and some extreme religious parties. He modernized Iranian army, navy, hammered Jungle communist separatist party in Gilan (North of Iran), and Kurd, Baluch and Turkmen rebels. Extreme religious parties which had power over the law in Qajar king lost their power during Reza shah and have their power reduced to the mosques and Islamic ceremonies. He reconquered Iran and reestablished law and order in the country. During his time the first factories have been built, and Iran entered the industrial age with help of third foreign countries (none of Russia and Britannia) Reza shah sent many Iranian students to Europe to learn modern science and technology and brought many foreign experts to help Iranian economy and customs and tax system. These experts were from US (which was not considered an expansionist power by that time) Germany, Denmark and etc. These efforts caused to weaken the Russian and British influence over Iran and later with the excuse of Iran using German experts in its economy as what England and Russia saw as German spies, They invaded Iran. --SorenShadow (talk) 22:02, 8 January 2010 (UTC)


 * LOL. Sennaista is another one using the term 'fascist' as a childish term of abuse without understanding what it means.

Rvt
Edits made by me were reverted by Kurdo777 (on 23 August 2009) with an edit summary saying "if you think something is unsourced, use fact tags." The text I deleted was not just unsourced but more-or-less duplicated by sourced text already in the article.

For example:

Already in the article During Reza Shah's sixteen years of rule, major developments, such as large road construction projects and the Trans-Iranian Railway were built, modern education was introduced and the University of Tehran was established.[25] The government sponsored European educations for many Iranian students.[26] The number of modern industrial plants, increased 17 fold under Reza Shah, (excluding oil installations), the number of miles of highway increased from 2000 to 14,000.[27]

Restored by Kurdo777: ''During Reza Shah's era for the first time many schools, universities, cultural organizations, such as city theater, theater houses, cafes, etc were built and many talented Iranians from poor families, villages, small towns and big cities were sent to the best universities in the world, such as Harvard and Stanford to be educated and return to Iran and help development of the country. ''

Already in the article ''The coup d'état of 1921 and the emergence of Reza Khan were assisted by the British government which wished to halt the Bolsheviks' penetration of Iran particularly because of the threat it posed to the British colonial possession of India. It is thought that British provided "ammunition, supplies and pay" for Reza's troops.[12][13] [14]''

Despite the support initially given to him by the British, the Shah worked to balance British influence with other foreigners and generally to diminish foreign influence in Iran.

Restored by Kurdo777: ''Although he came to power with the help of British government. He loathed British opportunistic methods in dealing with Iran oil resources and established ties with Germany to get rid of British and Russian interest-seeking strategies, that were taking most of Iran's national resources benefits, leaving people in Iran oil rich area in poverty.''

The rvt also replaced Shah (hereditary monarch) with Shah (roughly equivalent to King) although it has nothing to do with sourced material (later deleted) --BoogaLouie (talk) 20:07, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I've re-deleted the repetition. --BoogaLouie (talk) 17:47, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Nationality.
Was he Persian or Mazandarani by direct male line? Who is his earliest known ancestor by that line? СЛУЖБА (talk) 23:36, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

misleading quote
The following quote used in the article: 'Our younger intellectuals cannot possibly understand, and thus cannot possibly judge Reza Shah. They cannot because they were too young to remember the chaotic and desperate conditions out of which he arose' gives the impression that Kasravi was a staunch supporter of Reza Shah. Yes, he was in favour of many social reforms of Reza Shah, especially the abolition of feudal titles (ilkhan, saltanah, and dawlah), the elimination of local privileges, customs, and costumes, the expulsion of the mullahs from public life; the secularization of law, the granting of certain rights to women, the creation of a modern army and a new administrative structure, and the forced settlement of some of the nomadic tribes (Abrahamian, Kasravi:the integrative nationalist of Iran, 1973, p.285). But, he was committed to seeing the political power of the ruling elite be destroyed:

..'The elite is powerful and well interconnected. Its members are not only in the ministries but also in all fields of public life. They have not just appeared recently, but were in power dying the days of Qajar despotism, during the constitutional revol;ution, during the years after the revolution, during Reza Shah's reign, and now during our own time. If we do not cut their roots they will always remain in power. (Kasravi, Dadgah, p.44 as cited in Abrahamian, Kasravi:the integrative nationalist of Iran, 1973, p.286). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.80.104.182 (talk) 08:37, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

A sugercoated view?
Good morning, I am from the German Wikipedia and tried to find information regarding the Shah, but I only found a very bad article on the German site, which doesn´t give any information about how brutal his reign was. Therefore I came to the English one, but this article is bad, too. The Shah was one of the most horrible aristocrats after World War II. He used the secret police Savak to oppress the opposition and didn´t stop in front of the human rights. I highly recommend to add these information. Imagine someone would write that Gaddafi amd Mubarak are heroes. This article is a joke like the German one. Mr.Helfer (talk) 22:03, 30 August 2011 (UTC)


 * This article is about the first Pahlavi Shahanshah who toppled the Qajarid dynasty. Now, comparing the last Shahanshah of Iran, who ruled over 33 years ago with Muammar Gaddafi who was killed merely weeks ago is ignorance speaking for itself... But not as surprising as the tone with which you have assumed.


 * As for Germany, you are not really in a position to compare the brutality of Kemalist autocrats in the Third World (Where much of the society was still held at a tribal level and required strong leaders to commence modernization on a national scale), with the cold-blooded campaign of eradicating "Untermenschen" in the name of Aryan purity (Of which, you are nothing but thieving Germanic apes) during the WW2. Now that is what I call a stain that will never rub off. The same West Germany sold chemical weapons of mass destruction to Saddam Hussein during the Iran-Iraq war, where tens of thousands of civilians and soldiers in Iran still suffer from their effects.
 * As for Germany, you are not really in a position to compare the brutality of Kemalist autocrats in the Third World (Where much of the society was still held at a tribal level and required strong leaders to commence modernization on a national scale), with the cold-blooded campaign of eradicating "Untermenschen" in the name of Aryan purity (Of which, you are nothing but thieving Germanic apes) during the WW2. Now that is what I call a stain that will never rub off. The same West Germany sold chemical weapons of mass destruction to Saddam Hussein during the Iran-Iraq war, where tens of thousands of civilians and soldiers in Iran still suffer from their effects.


 * And speaking of Gaddafi, the same NATO that hail themselves, ironically, as "liberators of Libya" (In spite of causing civilian casualties) now want financial concessions from that war-torn country! Disgusting Westerner is still a disgusting Westerner.


 * Do us all a favour and do not speak of human rights, hypocrite. If the Iranian nation has performed self-flagellation throughout her past, your empathy as a feeling human being is welcome; your judgement, while you wave the German flag, is not.


 * The Persian Cataphract (talk) 18:35, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Inconsistent with rest of article
As of 2012-03-20, the current fourth paragraph in the Later Years of Reign section, which begins "The parliament assented to his decrees...", is highly inconsistent with the tone and objective of the preceding three paragraphs of that section. There are possibly also factual inaccuracies in it, as it references incarceration of Mohammad Mosaddegh which is AFAIK something that occurred a decade AFTER Reza Shah's reign, during the tenure of his son, Mohammed Reza Pahlavi. Could someone with better knowledge of regional history and impartiality please review this paragraph and edit it to be consistent or remove it if warranted? Macraig (talk) 01:13, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Update: I am further convinced that this was an erroneous insertion by someone attempting to be critical of Mohammed Reza Pahlavi's reign, not his father's. I am tentatively removing the entire paragraph subject to review and analysis by someone better versed in the subject than I.  Better to have NO information than MIS-information. Macraig (talk) 01:18, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

The final short paragraph in that section may also be suspect, but I am leaving it for the time being, subject to further comment. Macraig (talk) 01:22, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Unbelievable POV and bias
This article reads like Reza Shah literally came down from the heavens and bestowed light upon Iran. The page treats all of the historical criticisms of him as either anachronistic or simply ignorant. Frankly I do not know much about Reza Shah; I studied his rule in one class in college. From what I remember he was an uneven monarch, and ultimately failed (in part due to his method of modernization, in part due to Iran's unfortunate position during WWII) to unify Iran sufficiently to modernize the entire nation.

I honestly am tempted to delete entire chunks of this article, even though I don't know what I'd replace them with. Maybe I'll check out some books on Reza Shah from the local library so I can more intelligently edit the page. But right now we're in flagrant violation of Wikipedia standards. I'm surprised the article hasn't been suggested for deletion, given its overall quality. Spectheintro (talk) 05:05, 23 December 2012 (UTC)spectheintro


 * Ok, I've edited the first 25% of the article. It's getting late so I'll leave the rest for later. Hopefully I can knock the rest out tomorrow and re-submit this for consideration beyond start-class, although given my general lack of expertise I'm not sure it'll happen. (We still have shockingly few academic sources.)Spectheintro (talk) 06:50, 23 December 2012 (UTC)spectheintro

Copyright problem removed
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Removing diacritics
Why is the name of this page 'Rezā Shāh'? It's not normal to use this kind of letter (ā) in the names of individuals unless they have written their names like that. I don't know why "ā" is used. We have Ahmad Shah Qajar, Naser al-Din Shah Qajar, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, etc, and their names and titles are written in a normal form using Shah or Reza not Shāh nor Rezā. I suggest moving the page. Keivan.f Talk 09:09, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 20 August 2015

 * The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was move per request, as the common name form used in reliable English language sources.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 12:15, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Rezā Shāh → Reza Shah – As commented on the article's Talk page by on 24 May 2015, the diacritics seem generally absent from the name of this topic in English-language sources (and are probably also generally absent in non-English-language sources as well). They are also mostly not used within the article itself (e.g., they do not appear in the boldfaced title name at the beginning of the article). The article was moved to its current name by on 22 March 2010‎. That move had no edit summary and was apparently not discussed. I suggest for it to be reverted. —BarrelProof (talk) 23:38, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Support - English language sources don't use the diacritics in this case. Stickee (talk) 00:25, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Support - we don't use diacritics for non-Latin font names. In ictu oculi (talk) 06:00, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Support - I have never seen his name being written like that in English language sources. Keivan.f  Talk 20:12, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Support as it appears to be a lesser used form of the subject's name in english sources. Per WP:COMMONNAME  Scr ★ pIron IV 14:58, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Support - more common usage in English language.--Staberinde (talk) 15:38, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

His mother Noushafarin Ayromlou is Azerbaijani
His mother Noushafarin Ayromlou is Azerbaijani:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayrums — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.192.69.179 (talk) 03:22, 21 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Hello. Using a Wikipedia article as reference is not allowed. You have vandalized sourced content twice by now ( - ), despite that three sources were added. Her surname makes me believe she was an Azeri (indeed, of the Ayromlou subgroup) from Georgia, but we cant add anything like that without sourcing. All souces simply state that she was Georgian or Muslim Georgian. - LouisAragon (talk) 03:53, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Was Reza's mom Georgian or from Georgia?
Georgian and a person from Georgia are two different things so who exactly was his mother? Jaqeli 23:28, 4 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I think it would be misleading to say that she was "Georgian" without some clarification. Her name for one is definitely not Georgian. Also, if "Georgian" in this case simply refers to the country of provenance, that's also misleading because at that time Georgia as a state formation did not exist. With that logic it should say "Azeri immigrant from the Russian Empire", or lands recently annexed by Russia.--Damianmx (talk) 01:33, 5 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I agree with the comments above. Ayroumlou suggests affiliation with the Ayrums, a Turkic tribe, which did live in great numbers in the area where modern borders of Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia meet, but this does automatically mean ethnic Georgian origin. I suggest stating simply "Muslim immigrant from Georgia". Parishan (talk) 01:47, 10 August 2016 (UTC)


 * I agree, "Muslim immigrant from Georgia" would be the most correct thing here. - LouisAragon (talk) 02:02, 1 September 2016 (UTC)


 * I propose "ethnic Turk from Georgia." The Muslim population of Georgia is only about 10%, most of whom live on the border region of Azerbaijan and Armenia. Numerous sources state that Noush-Afarin Ayromlou was a Turkish Qashqai immigrant from Georgia.
 * “رضا شاه فرزند عباسعلی خان از طایفه پهلوان های آلاشت از توابع سوادکوه مازندران و از مادری بیگانه به نام نوش آفرین که از مهاجرین قفقازی می باشد“
 * (Translation: Reza Shah Abbas-Ali Khan of the Pahlavi’s was of Alasht of Savadkih, Mazandaran. His mother was Noush-Afarin who was a Qafqaz [Caucasian, non-Aryan] immigrant.)
 * Some sources: 1) Source 1, Source 2, Source 3, Source 4.
 * As this discussion hasn’t been active in some time, I’m going to go ahead and change it. Of course if anyone is around and objects we can revisit the issue. – LissanX (talk)
 * Wikipedia is written by using reliable sources, not WP:OR "proposals" and theorycrafting. - LouisAragon (talk) 13:07, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
 * He wasn’t qasqhai, your source is a lie . The shah was an Azeri from Georgia and his dad was mazani. The ayrums are an azeri tribe 2607:FEA8:92E2:2200:B40C:EF87:3DC3:2BD3 (talk) 20:34, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

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Semi-Protecting the Page
This page is being used by some as a promotional tool to enforce only biased information glorifying and eulogizing Reza Pahlavi, as opposed to being an informational resource. It seems that this issue has been brought up previously several times (i.e. [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Reza_Shah#Unbelievable_POV_and_bias "Unbelievable POV and bias"), [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Reza_Shah#A_sugercoated_view? "A sugercoated view?"]. This petty, arbitrary erasing of even the name of Reza Pahlavi and his relatives, as if it is forbidden, indicates that this page requires further protection from unscrupulous individuals who wish to take advantage of this article to disseminate a perverted, redacted narration instead of verifiable facts. There is no legitimate reason to be wiping sourced information on this article. LissanX (talk) 20:58, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

you have no consensus for your edits. your sources are at best poor and you often misrepresent what they say. stop accusing other editors of vandalism because you're the only vandal trying to push his nationalistic agenda. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:1AF8:4700:B240:1:0:0:4F7 (talk) 21:17, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Padlock-dash2.svg Not done: requests for increases to the page protection level should be made at Requests for page protection. Danski454 (talk) 21:30, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
 * The sources cited are reliable and include the renowned Encyclopædia Iranica, renowned authors like Ervand Abrahamian, dozens of books and news outlets. Falsifying excuses like "your sources are poor" and resorting to baseless accusations like "you're the only vandal trying to push his nationalistic agenda" are malicious and legitimate. You have no right to wipe large amounts of sourced information because it opposes your partisan political views. LissanX (talk) 21:31, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

"Shah Pahlavi" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shah_Pahlavi&redirect=no Shah Pahlavi] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at until a consensus is reached. NotReallySoroka (talk) 00:32, 29 March 2023 (UTC)