Talk:Rhyming slang/Archive 1

True origins?
I'e always thought it originated with criminals, needing to conceal talking about their activities from listeners. It is particularly suited for this, because you can make up your own rhymes on the fly, even without saying the second part. First, you use the rhyme once where the context is obvious. The listener knows the sentence makes no sense, and therefore must be rhyming slang, and knowing what word should be there from the context, deduces the rhyme instantly. It may then be used by either person when the meaning is no longer obvious from the context.

24.7.0.240 (talk) 21:11, 16 January 2012 (UTC)


 * That sounds like it may well be a brilliant thesis you could use, but unfortunately a wikipedia talkpage is not an appropriate place to publish it. All we can really use here must be regurgitated from existing sources. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 21:17, 16 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Flat Horsehoofers? That's a Ta-ta kiss, mate. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:01, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

The Three Investigators
Should The Three Investigators #22- The Mystery of the Dead Man's Riddle be included in the "Rhyming slang in popular culture" section? http://www.scribd.com/doc/14646455/22-The-Mystery-of-the-Dead-Mans-Riddle —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.7.103.88 (talk) 08:12, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Brass Tacks?
Not sure if it's really rhyming slang. I've heard too many other origins... request removal as it is stated in a manner that makes it seem like the only/correct origin. We've quite a nice page on brass tacks as it is, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brass_tacks

A better US example would be pussy (pussy cat, twat). 78.146.31.207 (talk) 05:23, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

No, people from the US pronounce the "a" in cat and twat totally differently, and as an American I can tell you that is not rhyming slang. 71.234.82.176 (talk) 01:02, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

I've always heard both words pronounced with a short a, unlike words such as bath and grass which are pronounced by some speakers with a short a and others with a long a. I cannot imagine pronouncing cat with a long a (it would sound too like cart). Does this mean that Americans pronounce twat with a long a? Can someone enlighten me - all the Americans I've met have been too polite to use the word. 92.2.95.177 (talk) 11:39, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

It depends on the regional accent, but I've heard Americans pronouncing it "twaaaat" more often than "twat". This really is nothing to do with rhyming slang though. 92.4.189.82 (talk) 20:15, 22 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Having spent some time in the former colonies, I can affirm that the most common US pronunciation of "twat" is "twot". The late George Carlin mentioned the difference in one of his many (spoken) sketches about words: "Twot's twat, and that's that".--JH49S (talk) 08:09, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm born and raised in NY, we pronounce it "twot."

I feel a bit sorry for the Americans, pronouncing it "twot"... it loses all it's punch. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.28.203.69 (talk) 15:13, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Quicken Speech?
You don't drop the second word because of that -- you drop it to make it impossible for others to understand. This is like Butcher's Back Slang (speaking words in reverse) which was used by London butchers at one point. The idea is that other people who are not Cockney's don't understand it. I speak as son of a true Cockney (by the Bow Bells definition) who was also a linguist in later life and discussed this with me. 218.102.78.57 10:31, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

82.45.78.94 21:17, 28 December 2006 (UTC) He's right you know. I speak this as a cockney as well - though not a linguist.

Defn of CRS
I'm at work so I don't have time to address this right now - but this article focuses a little too much on CRS in East London, and fails to explore the way it has spread across the world. CRS is very common in Australia, and has even turned up in the US - eg. the term "Raspberry" for a fart, derives from "raspberry tart" (source: David Crystal - The English Language). It's still a very good article though - just needs a bit more depth. - MMGB Er, I'm struggling to see how an article on Cockney rhyme slang can fail to focus on East London the home of Cockneys born within the sound of Bow Bells... But I am being slightly disingenuous. Rhyming slang has indeed taken on a global context, but probably would be better dealt with under, say, Rhyming slang, crosslinked to CRS. sjc
 * Doesn't the term "raspberry" refer to a fart-like sound made with the lips rather than to the sound of a real fart?
 * Does the term "cant" apply to CRS or am I thinking of som other form of jargon?
 * user:eclecticology

I disagree, mainly because it has spread across the world, and is generally referred to as "cockney rhyming slang". Examine Bryson - Mother Tongue, and Crystal (cited above). It is not called simply "rhyming slang", it is always referred to as "Cockney rhyming slang". Rhyming Slang is quite different - to call a "beer" an "ear" is rhyming slang, to call a beer a "bullock" is CRS (as in "bullock and steer"). Whether the expression itself is used in Cockney territory is not the point, CRS also refers to a style of linguistic usage. It's definitely used and referred to as such in Oz and NZ. I've been aware of CRS since I was a child, and long before I was even aware what "cockney" actually referred to. I doubt Americans would recognise the term as such, but nonetheless the books I have read on the topic clearly identified its heritage. That's all :) - MMGB

V. persuasive, Manning, I don't have any particular problem with that approach. sjc

I'd disagree (but then I would, I wrote the (original) article). Cockney Rhyming Slang is *by definition* what Cockney's use. Other people may come up with rhyming slang (my friends and I use to use economic = economic slump = dump (defecate), so when you ran out of toilet paper it was an economic crisis!), they may have been inspired by CRS, and they can call it CRS, but it isn't. Similarly saying that something 'is a great value' can be described as English, but it isn't, it's American English (the English would be 'is great value'). I can see your point about CRS representing a step away from a direct rhyme such as ear/beer, but I can't think of any widespread use that is made of such a construction, so I don't think we need to allow for it. But please provide evidence otherwise :) Another analogy - I was at the store last night, and they were selling Yorkshire Ham from Vermont. Verloren

Hate to differ - but you're failing to acknowledge two points. 1 - CRS has spread across the worldwide, particularly to the antipodes, and 2 - when it spreads it is called "Cockney ryhming slang", not "rhyming slang" and this is validated by citable references. Simply because a particular instance of slang didn't originate in East London doesn't change the fact that that is what it is called. Your argument would imply that Americans can't refer to "French toast" because it isn't French. They do, you may not like it, but that's how it is :) - MMGB

A very good point. The difference I see is that 'French' becomes a method of preparation, rather than a point of origin, and is needed to differentiate this from 'normal' toast. That's why we say American Football, to distinguish a particular instance of a more general class, and why Canadians don't play American Football (because they changed it). I see no such need with CRS (I can't think of an example of rhyming slang that doesn't follow the CRS pattern, and to stretch the analogy this is why we don't say American trousers), whereas it could be useful to differentiate between phrases with Cockney origins and those without. For example, the phrase "It's all gone a bit Pete" became popular on BBC Radio 1 in the UK. It means wrong, derived from a DJ named Pete Tong. A good and useful phrase, but has nothing to do with Cockneys, and to be able to distinguish that is useful. What I've not convinced even myself of is that just because it's useful it's actually used! Maybe in the same way we need to say American English, except that the Cockney community is smaller, so any interest in differentiating them is proportionally less. Verloren

I'd beg to differ here...just because Pete Tong is a DJ on Radio 1 doesnt mean the radio station made it up (ie Pete Tong (as in wrong)). As far as I know this originated on the dance/rave scene completely independent to any radio station. With the rave scene always having very strong connections with working class people from London/Essex that implies that is has very strong connections to Cockneys/Londoners.With the rave/dance scene (unlike the largely middle class rock/indie scene)being the music of choice of the younger sections of the late 80s and after London working class it is no wonder it produced so much widely used CRS eg cheesey quaver (raver), radio rentals/chicken oriental (mental) etc

Out of curiousity, why "extension to (of??) English" rather than my original "idiom particular to..." or whatever I wrote -- I am pretty sure that, philologically and linguistically speaking, CRS is idiom within a particular dialect, but admit I'm on a limb here...JHK

I blew away what you wrote purely because I thought my version was a little more comprehensive (while covering everything you said), and I'm no good at reconciling these things when there are two edits at the same time, NOT because it was wrong, or badly done. So I think the 'idiom particular to' type construct works better (idiom isn't a word I use a lot in conversation, so it didn't occur to me!). Please update it to reflect that :) Verloren

-

I would also like to add that CRS was and to some extent still is used to get around censure, most notably by the Goons (Spike Milligan, Peter Sellers, Harry Secombe and in the early days Michael Bentine). Hence the common usage of such expressions as, Hello Charlie (Charles Hunt) and characters with names such as Hugh Hampton (Hampton Wick). I think that this point would be of use and would allow a tie in between the Goons and vulgar language used in mainstream media
 * The liner notes to the first Traveling Wilburys album mentioned 'Professor "TINY" Hampton' and were themselves credited to Hugh Jampton. I cannot cite a reference but believe that the liner notes were written by Michael Palin (late of Monty Python team), George Harrison, or both of them. --JH49S (talk) 08:09, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

- - - - - - - - - - - -

My thoughts are: CRS means something specific - not general. It refers to a specific idiom, not something just anyone can make up and it isn't anything to do with American usage of words or modern inventions. It's from a certain time period in a certain area of London (although those from outside London may think it's just a fun, invented word game). It's historically important. Authentic CRS is easy enough to date authentically. The page content will mean nothing is any old rubbish is put in. I think the current list is too long if anything. Link to another page off site if we need a long authentic list.

Maybe we need a general 'rhyming slang' page for modern or questionable usage with no historical context. Spanglej (talk) 22:46, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Barney
From Ocean's Eleven:

"Looks like we're in a bit of Barney, then." - Roscoe Means, british demolitions expert (puzzled looks and shrugs from Americans) "Barney. Barney Rubble?  Trouble!"
 * Only thing is Barney doesn't come from Barney Rubble and doesn't mean trouble, it means a fight or an argument


 * Barney Fife, strife?


 * No. The most likely explanation is that Barney comes from Barn Owl which (in a cockney accent) rhymes with row (argument). So it's a little obscure to non-Londoners. Mintguy


 * As a Londoner I can't see how you can possibly make Barn Owl rhyme with row. Eastenders might lighten that final 'l' but it's still there. I think this is one of the many cases where a slang expression used by Londoners isn't CRS SteveCrook 00:41, May 16, 2005 (UTC)
 * Owl sounds like row when I say it. Although I tend to alter my accent depending on the social situation that I'm in - I'm a law student and I would never find work if I use my natural accent. I think that the Barn Owl = Row theory seems possible. Zestos (talk) 00:49, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm also a Londoner, by the way. Zestos (talk) 00:50, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

"Barney" (meaning "a lark or spree; Humbug, cheating; an unfair sporting contest; a noisy dispute or altercation") is not rhyming slang.

However, as rhyming slang has no "official version", and like all slang is invented by the people all over the world who speak it, if people want to say "Barney" and mean "Barney Rubble = trouble", or say "Barney" and mean "Barn Owl = row" or "Barney" and mean "Barn raising = altercation" OK I invented that one, but why not? then those constructions become rhyming slang by the very act of their being used as rhyming slang. Languages are changed by their speakers, slang changes quicker than written language. pablo hablo. 05:09, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

- I don't think that Barney is rhyming slang. Among other meanings, it meant a prize-fight, so by extension any type of brawl or quarrel. Engelsepiet - I can't stand that guy's fake Cockney accent. - I can't contribute to the origin of Barney, other to say that it pre-dates The Flinstones cartoons. My Grandfather claims it was in common use during WWII. dougo 07:39, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Barney goes even further back. My Grandfather (born 1885, died 1963) used it regularly--essentially it means a punch up. I have no authority for the origin--but here is a suggestion. At Highbury Hill there was a venue called the Old Barn. During the 1840s to 1850s it was a highly popular venue for dancing, music, carousing, music hall acts and grew and grew. Eventually it became so rowdy, with regular punch-ups, that the authorities closed it down in 1871. I submit that like my fellow Mods and Rockers in the 1960s, where we planned to go out for a beer and a punch-up on a Saturday, our Victorian predecessors would do the same--"'ere, less go up 'ighbury for a Barney!" There was also a useful boxer called Barney Barnato in the 1870s who became a famous Randlord in South Africa and an East end hero. His "act" was to walk into East End Pubs and challenge anyone in the room to three rounds for a night's drinks--more of him below.

More stuff, CRS spread around the world, especially to Australia, with those free sea cruises called Transportation. Its a fair bet that after the Irish the biggest export from The Old Bailey was cockneys. CRS must also have traveled with the army. In South Africa a few CRS expressions exist, even among Afrikaans speakers ( Jam=Jam-jar-car,Egg and Spoon--Coon,Ginger Beer-Queer etc)--perhaps a relic from the early mining days or the Boer War. It is documented that Barney Barnato, an East End Jew, used CRS to fool his public school educated rival Cecil Rhodes in business meetings. Re the Army/military--Our family is from mid-Kent and both my Grandfather and Father used common CRS expressions, especially for "rude" actions ( Jimmy Riddle, Tom Tit, Right Charlie!, Berk etc.), even though they were far from the social level of the East End. Neither my Grandmother or Mother knew these expressions, so I guess they learned them in the Army, Air Force or the pub. Another anecdote. East Enders gave CRS lessons to the public schoolboy Officer class in prison camps in Germany and the Far East during WW2 to provide a "cover language" that the Germans and Japs could not follow when discussing escape plans (James Clavell) --Gaptech (talk) 09:55, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * "Barney" is a dialect word, not rhyming slang. "Barney Rubble" has come about because people assume it is rhyming slang. pablo hablo. 23:15, 17 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The Concise Oxford English Dictionary [OED] (11th edition) describes 'barney' as British, 19th Century, and of otherwise unknown origin. Seems to me that's safest unless somebody knows what the full version of the OED has for it --JH49S (talk) 08:09, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Dead-tree OED says:
 * Barney. slang and techn. a. Humbug, cheating. b. A prize fight. c. Mining (see quot.).
 * 1865 B Brierley Irkdale II. 19, I won thee i' fair powell one toss an' no barney. 1881 Raymond Mining Gloss., Barney, a small car attached to a rope and used to push cars up a slope or inclined plane. 1882 Even. News 2 Sept 1/6 Blackguardlly barneys called Boxing Competitions. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 17:36, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Dogs, razz and 'arris
I'm pretty sure that dogs is not rhyming slang and doesn't come from dogs meat; and although raspberry = raspberry tart = fart, I don't think razz has its origin in cockney rhyming slang either. Certainly I've never heard the word razz used to mean a fart. And one more - I don't know the origin of aris, but I'd always believed it was a cockney pronunciation of Harris, i.e. 'arris, but I could be wrong. A lot of these words you take for granted without wondering about their origin. Mintguy (not a true cockney but spent most of my life speaking and living amongst people who speak CRS).

As a youngster growing up around the Elephant & Castle in London, I knew the word 'aris' as meaning 'arse', but only learnt about the 'Aristotle' connection when I was much older. I think that it's more likely to be a play on the sound of '(H)arris' and 'arse' than double rhyming slang. Engelsepiet
 * My father, who grew up in Leyton and whose mother was from Bow, assures me both that dogs = dogs' meat = feet (frequent complaint, "Me dogs are barkin'.") and that Ar[r]is = Aristotle = bottle = bottle & glass = arse. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 17:44, 27 July 2010 (UTC)


 * The razz or Bronx cheer is performed by sticking the tongue between the lips and blowing hard, keeping the lips pressed as tight as possible. Thus, razz, raspberry tart, fart.
 * Not all rhyming slang is Cockney folklore. I'm sure it was the wittiest Cockneys who made it up, and lots of people outside the sound of Bow Bells have heard of it and are capable of making it up too.  Same for dog's meat.  People do call their feet their dogs, you know.  I don't have my references before me, but I'm confident about razz and less confident about dogs. Ortolan88


 * I don't doubt that many CRS expressions have origins outside London. but many slang words have obscure origins and sometimes people assume that the origin is in CRS. I don't think dog in this context comes from dog's meat. I looked razz up in the Chambers dictionary and it appears to only be in common ussage in North America, which is why it's an unusual expression to me. Certainly raspberry in this context is common in Britain but not razz. Mintguy


 * The OED has ten cites on razz, two from Punch, also Spectator and Times Literary Supplement, says it is of US origin, from Brit use of raspberry. No mention of CRS. Ortolan88

OED2 says it's rhyming slang, without mentioning Cockney. It defines razz as orig. US slang, "short for RASPBERRY 4", then defines RASPBERRY 4 as "elliptical use of raspberry tart (b) ", then defines raspberry tart (b) as "rhyming slang (a) heart (b) fart". -- Heron

There are quite a number of websites which all give Raspberry tart = fart for the definition (to blow a rasperry/raspberries)--Dieter Simon 22:48 Feb 24, 2003 (UTC)

...that is for Rhyming Slang...--Dieter Simon 22:51 Feb 24, 2003 (UTC)

I'm still not convinced that aris/'arris is CRS. On http://www.odps.org/slanga.html it states..
 * "arris n. buttock cleft, f. (1) pos. corrup. of arse, but could be from the literal meaning "sharp edge at the meeting of two surfaces". Strangely the term is used with its correct meaning in bricklaying! (2) possibly "double" Cockney rhyming slang - Aristotle=bottle, bottle and glass=arse. The latter also helps explain the term for someone who has panicked, i.e. "lost his bottle" as in "shit himself" (ed: however, on balance I think perhaps the first is most likely)"


 * I tend to agree with the author. The double rhyme would be unique AFAIK. Mintguy

Arris and bottle
The expression "lost his bottle" is quite common where I come from, so I prefer explanation (2) in the above. Here are two alternatives from http://www.cockneyrhymingslang.co.uk/
 * Aris Arse: derived from aristotle (bottle) meaning bum (bottle of rum).
 * Aris Arse (derivation: Aris = Aristotle = Bottle = Bottle and Glass = Arse).

At http://www.users.on.net/brett/ (confirmed at http://www.recoil.co.uk/forum/qa/pworld.htm) I found a triple rhyme:
 * plaster = plaster of Paris = arris = Aristotle = bottle = bottle and glass = arse

Double rhymes are rare but are sometimes found. Here's one from Australia:
 * pom = pomegranate = jimmygrant = immigrant

(source: http://www.word-detective.com/back-m.html). -- Heron


 * Actor Roger Lloyd Pack (Trigger in Only Fools And Horses but actually a clever man and a student of London slang) reported some time back that he'd heard someone say "She's got a lovely April" which turned out to be April in Paris = Arris = Aristotle = bottle = bottle and glass = arse. SteveCrook 00:41, May 16, 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes to lose your bottle is common, but I don't believe there is any evidence to suggest that aristotle was ever used as a rhyme of bottle.


 * I don't see the need for the intermediate rhyme of jimmygrant.


 * Er... plaster? Never heard anyone use the word plaster to mean 'arse'. Mintguy

Bill Bryson gives the plaster-to-arse derivation in his book Mother Tongue (1990). -- Heron 20:54, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * From the Bill Bryson page on Wikipedia - Bryson has written two works on the history of the English language, Mother Tongue and Made In America. However, these books have been criticized for their abundance of factual errors, urban myths, and folk etymologies. While Bryson is passionate about languages, he holds no degree in linguistics. Mintguy (T) 07:50, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * I know. You are right to be sceptical.  I wasn't claiming him as an authoritative source, merely as a collector of anecdotes.  --Heron 08:12, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Do the BURTON!
To do the burton, commenly used when making a hasty exit. Where does the the word BURTON originate? Possible answer Burton - Burton on trent - trent - went.


 * The Bloomsbury Dictionary of Popular Phrases says the expression arose in the RAF during World War II, but that its origin is unknown. It is probably not rhyming slang.  One suggestion is that a 'Burton' was a brand of beer being advertised at the time, and it replaced the word 'drink' in the existing RAF phrase 'gone for a drink', meaning 'shot down over the sea'. -- Heron


 * "Gone for a Burton" - perh. to buy a civilian suit (from Burton's the gents outfitters), similar to "buying the farm", the dream of many wartime aviators, used to euphemise death, as in "old Charlie bought it, yesterday". Rich Farmbrough 21:04, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The word Burton originates from the British actor Richard Burton. In CRS, Richard Burtain means curtain (like in a theater).


 * Then it would be "gone for a Richard" which would be very confusing.... Rich Farmbrough 00:50, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
 * "Gone for a Burton" comes from an old India Pale Ale Billboard advert, that showed a very long bus queue, with a silhouette as part of the queue, in which was written; "Gone For A Burton!"Lion King 17:23, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

I think it is generally accepted among experts that the origin of the phrase is unknown. There is little or no evidence to support any of the above theories. See http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-gon1.htm


 * But given that the source above suggests that Burton-on-Trent is the most likely source, and supports what I have always understood for the last 50+ years, I'd go with that explanation. Even though that source is patently misled on one thing: Burton beers are still around today, and Burton connection is still a selling point.

Taters
I am trying to trace the origin of the phrase "taters in the mould", for the benefit of this Wikpedia article. Some books say that it's from an old song. The oldest reference I can find is the line "It was cold as 'taters in the mould", from the song Anti-Carol (1972) by John Pole. Did Pole create the phrase, or does anybody know of an older source? -- Heron 12:35, 23 Oct 2003 (UTC)


 * it's much older than that for sure,


 * You are right. Thanks to Google Books, I've just found a reference in Partridge's Shorter Slang Dictionary that says that it was used (as "potatoes in the mould") in the late 19th and 20th centuries. --Heron (talk) 21:17, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Plastered
I really don't buy this double or triple rhyming thing. I was already convinced that 'aris isn't CRS, but I'm coming to the conclusion that 'plastered' isn't CRS either. Some sources say that 'plastered' first appears around 1912, the same time as a number of other words for drunk that have no connection with CRS, like blotto and steamed. Some sources say that it's Irish in origin. Mintguy (T) 03:27, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * ISTM that multiple remove slang formations occur when the purpose is to conceal. Typically this applies to anatomical or sexual terms, and also to the police, once the slang term becomes assimilated into normal language, it loses it's conealment value.  Does anyone know where "fuzz" for the police orignates? Rich Farmbrough 21:12, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * See http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-fuz1.htm Mintguy (T)

Also see Low Speak: A Dictionary of Criminal and Sexual Slang (London, 1989) by James Morton. He opines that: The OED has, among several senses of plaster (verb), "to load to excess", "to defeat utterly" and (First World War slang) "to shell heavily". Any of these could have led to the "drunk" sense.
 * 1) the rhyming-slang explanation for plastered is "an extremely complicated theory", and
 * 2) fuzz is "originally American east coast slang taken up by hippies and now in general use", and "perhaps" derives from fuss.

American Tramp & Underworld Slang by G. Irwin, 1931, has "Fuzz, a detective; a prison guard or turnkey. Here it is likely that 'fuzz' was originally 'fuss', one hard to please or over-particular." --Heron 21:38, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Perhaps  'aris/arris/Harris should be moved (along with plastered) out of the main list and into a section detailing words that may not be CRS? Mintguy (T) 21:56, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure. The principle sounds good, but how would you decide which ones were "genuine"?  Sometimes the CRS derivation gets bolted on to an existing piece of slang (e.g. scarper), and sometimes the CRS and slang version seem to evolve simultaneously (e.g. arris).  There is probably a core of terms that are undisputed (e.g. apples and pears), but the boundary is blurred.  I think you would need three lists: true CRS, retro-CRS, and undecided. --Heron 08:13, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I always thought that aris came from Aris - building trade term for a 90 degree corner - but also sounds vaguely like arse. --Mcginnly | Natter 15:41, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Pie grater
According to the article Hamish and Dougal, there was a gag in which a buzzing pie grater caused much embarrassment by sounding like a vibrator. Apparently it was a doubly aural joke because of the rhyming of "pie grater" and "vibrator". Would this be an example of Cockney rhyming slang, with the full phrase being used instead of just the first word? &mdash; Jeff Q 20:05, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * In a word. No. Mintguy (T)
 * According to my reference books, CRS doesn't require the rhyme to be shortened to the first word - that's an optional step. However, "pie grater" was created by fictional Scots, not by Cockneys, so I would call it rhyming slang, not CRS. --Heron 21:16, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Pie grater in Google gets 3 hits, one of them from Wikipedia and another from a mirror. It's not slang by any definition, it is merely a ficticious object which sounds like vibrator for the sake of a joke. Mintguy (T) 21:36, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * OK, I concede. I suppose it's just "fictional slang", in the same category as "Naff off!" from Porridge. --Heron 07:52, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * "Naff" is genuine slang, abeit not CRS, it's Polari, it means "dull", but one would not tell anybody to "Dull Off". Lion King 21:18, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * No, it's not slang. Nobody, not even the characters in the sketch are using 'pie grater' as a colloquial substitute for vibrator. The characters are talking about an object called a pie grater, they are not taling about a vibrator. When the characters in the sketch mention the buzzing of the pie grater, the audience think buzzing vibrator and snigger. It's stupid schoolboy humour really. Mintguy (T)


 * Duh, I get it. Sorry, I was being obtuse.  As you say, it's not slang. I suppose it's really a rough double entendre. --Heron 09:46, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Hu Jintao
recently added an entry "Hu Jintao = cow". I have a problem believing that, simply because it was added by 50Stars. I know that goes against assuming good faith, but once it was confirmed that 50Stars is a sockpuppet account (see WP:ANI#User:Amerinese, User:DINGBAT et al.), any faith that was left on my part has disappeared. I removed the entry at some point, and 50Stars added it again with edit summary "Hu Jintao is currently used in London banking cirlces." I've just removed it a second time because I have a hard time believing this (why would London banking circles talk about cows a lot?). I'm not opposed to adding it back, but only if there is a credible source for this claim. --MarkSweep 20:00, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Catching up
I'm new to this section but I've been a Londoner all my life and there are a few points I'd like to raise or query here. This discussion area has got to be a bit messy but I've added some comments inline above about some of the wilder claims.

My main point would be that I was brought up to believe that CRS was mainly used by market traders (barrow boys, a remarkable clever & quick witted bunch) so that they could talk to each other without the customers knowing what they were saying. It's a form of code! Part of this obscuring of the meaning is that they pick a word or phrase that rhymes with the word they want to encode - and then (usually) discard the rhyme. No Cockney would say "I'm going up the apples and pears". They'd just say "I'm going up the apples". But remember that it's a form of communication (with your friends) so it's no good if they don't know what you're talking about.

My second point would be to stress that not everything said by Londoners is CRS. Not even all the slang they use is CRS. What about "My dear old dutch" (as in the song)? That's just an abbreviation of duchess.


 * ... itself an abbreviation of Duchess of Fife. Not at all uncommon and many people know the derivation - so that one is CRS.EmleyMoor (talk) 11:21, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Then I'd add that there are a lot of web sites (& books) out there that are desparate to fill up the space available with more examples - so they just make them up. But the real test is if you used them in an East End pub or cafe, would anyone know what you're on about? Most of the examples in the list for this article would fail that test. SteveCrook 00:41, May 16, 2005 (UTC)


 * I would also say that we should delete any examples that are marked as being Australian (shouldn't they be in their own article?) or "invented by ...". Just because it's found on a few web sites doesn't mean it's CRS. Most of the examples on those lists are made up and then copied from one web site to another (or into books). Wouldn't it be better to have a list of examples that were real CRS rather than a list where 90% of them wouldn't be understood by most cockneys? A classic bad example is "Jack the dancer = cancer". When spoken in a London accent "cancer" doesn't come close to rhyming with "dancer". Unless I hear some objections I'll start clearing out the bad examples. SteveCrook 22:40, May 16, 2005 (UTC)

I was hoping for some discussion here but after nearly two weeks there's no sign of any so, following the Wiki philosophy of Being Bold I decided to act anyway. I've removed a few examples that were marked as Australian, they should really have their own entry. I've removed some that were obviously wrong. I've marked many others as [dubious]. The trouble with slang is that you're not likely to find any reliable quotable sources. Just because they're in a few web pages doesn't mean they'd pass the "pub test". If you used them in an East-End pub I doubt if they'd be understood. I suspect most web pages are compiled by people who have never heard any Cockneys (except Dick van Dyke in Mary Poppins) or who just make them up to pad out their web sites (or even books). SteveCrook 19:47, May 28, 2005 (UTC)


 * I've "undubioused" a couple, and removed "bottle" as courage altogether. The derivation is far more juvenile, "what's the matter, lost your bottle" I.E. someone who is crying like a baby that has lost his feeding bottle, or looks as if they might.  Hence "he hasn't got any bottle" or conversely "a lot of bottle".


 * That comment about lost your bottle makes sense. BTW in Australia, a bottler is something very good, often a racehorse. I'll still disagree about some you've "undubioused" but I'll leave them for now in the hope of other opinions. I see you've marked Merchant Banker = wanker as dubious. I've certainly heard that used - and it does describe a lot of them :) SteveCrook


 * Elephants = Elephant's Trunk = Drunk  I think this originated in a Ronnie Barker sketch.  Whether it passed into common usage I couldn't say, so I've not changed it.


 * I heard "He's a bit Elephants" as I was growing up. So it's a lot older than The Two Ronnies. Or might it have been some of Ronnie Barker's very early work? SteveCrook


 * My Grandad was using "Elephants" before BOTH those prats were born! Lion King 20:28, 17 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Could that be the reason why pink elephants appear when Dumbo gets drunk in the eponymous film? Just a thought.  Blue Caper  (talk) 02:12, 18 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Jack jones certainly means alone. Not sure if it's a rhyming derivation, but I would guess so. Lion King 20:28, 17 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Mickey Bliss = piss (as in "take the Mickey" = "take the piss" = satirise) I have my doubts about this one. I wondered if the word "micturate" may be involved?


 * I have severe doubts that it's rhyming slang. And Cockneys are clever as in sharp witted, that doesn't mean many would know the definition of micturate SteveCrook


 * Anyway I'm glad someone shares my doubts about some of these, although I'm aware my familiarity is somewhat limited of recent decades. Rich Farmbrough 00:43, 29 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Mickey Bliss is genuine CRS. It's widely thought that like Charlie Hunt, (proper Charlie) he was a "local character" most likely Irish like Patrick "hooligan" Houlihan, now long gone. It's derivation is certainly not latin. Hope this helps. Lion King 14:58, 17 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I also seem to remember Jodrell => wank. Rich Farmbrough 00:53, 29 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I seem to recall that one from school. SteveCrook


 * Jodrell is from "Jodrell Bank', which dates the usage to 1957 at the earliest. That was when the place became more widely known, because of the radio telescope on the site. --JH49S (talk) 08:09, 20 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Bubble barf is larf isn;t it? And Peter is safe, but I don't knowe if there's a rhyming connection. Ansd what about drum (home) Is that from Humble abode -> hum-> drum?, tanner, monkey, pony and all the other money slang, even if it's not rhyimg slang it should be in a cockney/London slang article. Rich Farmbrough 00:59, 29 May 2005 (UTC)


 * A Bubble is definitely a Greek. It's not unknown to have two words mean different things, but it's not very common. Drum for house and Peter for safe are both London slang but I don't think they're rhyming slang. I think they, like Tom for prostitute, might all be police slang that's been picked up by the other side. We need a Copper's Nark to tell us. I think there should be a section for London slang that isn't CRS. As London was a port (and hub of Empire) for so long there have always been a lot of immigrants (most are welcomed by most people). And English as a language has always been keen on borrowing terms from other languages. Someone once said that English pretends to be a nice language but then entices other languages down a dark alleyway and mugs them for all their best words! :) SteveCrook 02:22, May 29, 2005 (UTC)


 * Good grief you've marked some classic CRS as dubious. you need to get out more. Jooler 19:41, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Dunno about "classics" some of them seem to have quite recent references to this old geezer, but I agree with most of the ones you've OK'd. I'm glad to see that you're keeping up the traditions and many are to do with drinking :)
 * I suppose Barclays Bank is now better known that J. Arthur Rank
 * Britney Spears can't have been in use for very long, or is it already a "classic"?
 * Scooby Doo was probably helped by the films being released
 * It's an ever changing language which is why we love it.
 * I still feel there's something missing from "On my Jack". If it is CRS then it doesn't rhyme SteveCrook 00:23, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

Examples or a dictionary
It seems the Examples section is trying to become a dictionary, which isn't the point of Wikipedia.

What do others think of reducing this to say five common phrases and their origins?

Wiktionary already has a list of Cockney rhyming slang and would seem to be a better place for this.

— Barefootguru 23:57, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree the Dictionary has all the commonly used CRS and none of the other made up stuff, seems to better policed and would certanly make you look less of a fool in an east end pub. Perhaps the examples section here should be used to illistrate a few good examples rather that an exhaustive list. I suggest Apples, Frog and Rosie would be a good selection of classic CRS. What the disabled and Australian rhyming slang is doing there is beyond me, and if you want a good tip as to what is going make you look like a proper berk, if the rhyme is the name of a current pop star then it is doubtful it is being widely used.....

Andy (Essex) 1st September 2005
 * Actually if the rhyme is the name of a current pop star it is more likely to be widely used, if only for a short time. Jamie Blunt is now filling the shoes occupied by James Hunt and Gareth Hunt in the 1970s. Paul Tracyundefined

It's been a couple of weeks with no other feedback, so I've gone ahead and removed all but 3 examples. I also added some hidden comments requesting it not be extended (again). Note that pretty much all additions in the last few weeks have been from non-registered users.

Here's the examples I removed:


 * Adam and Eve = believe = as in "would you Adam and Eve it?"
 * Alans = knickers = as in Alan Whicker (UK TV personality)
 * Almonds = almond rocks = socks
 * Alto Rag = old bag (derogatory term for a prostitute)
 * April = April in Paris = Aris = Aristotle = bottle = bottle & glass = arse
 * Aris = Aristotle = bottle = bottle & glass = arse
 * Artful Dodger = lodger
 * Ayrton Senna = tenner (a ten dollar/pound note)
 * Ascot races = braces (called suspenders in the U.S.)
 * Aunt Joanna = piano (or just Joanna) (note the cockney pronunciation of 'piano' is 'pianna')
 * Baked Bean = queen
 * Ball of chalk = walk
 * Band of hope = soap
 * Barclays = Barclays Bank = wank (i.e. masturbate)
 * Barnaby Rudge = judge
 * Barnet = Barnet fair = hair
 * Beezun = bees and honey = money
 * Bengal Lancer = chancer (person unqualified for the work he/she is doing)
 * Berk or Burk = Berkeley Hunt = cunt (used as a surprisingly mild insult — a fool or jerk, never as an anatomical reference)
 * Bill and Ben = pen
 * Billy = Billy Bunter = punter (i.e. customer or mark)
 * Billy Hunt = cunt
 * Billy lid = kid
 * Bird's Nest = chest
 * Biscuit drum or crumb = bum (rear end, buttocks)
 * Bluebottle = bottle and stopper = copper = policeman.
 * Boat = boat race = face
 * Bob Hope = soap
 * Boracic (freq. contracted to brassic) = boracic lint = skint (i.e. 'skinned', meaning 'penniless')
 * Bottle = bottle glass = ass
 * Brahms = Brahms and Liszt (classical composers) = pissed (i.e. drunk)
 * Brad Pitt = shit (as in to have)
 * Brass tacks = facts ("facks")
 * Bread = bread and honey = money
 * Bricks and mortar = daughter
 * Bristol (or Bristols) = Bristol City (UK football club) = titty (i.e. breast)
 * Britney Spears = beers
 * Brown bread = dead
 * Bubble = bubble and squeak = Greek
 * Butcher's = butcher's hook = look
 * Cain and Abel = table
 * Canary Wharf = dwarf (disability rhyming slang)
 * Captains log = bog (slang for lavatory)
 * Cardinal Wolsey = cerebral palsy (disability rhyming slang)
 * Chalfonts = Chalfont St. Giles = piles (i.e. haemorrhoids)
 * Charlie = Charlie Smirke (an English jockey, 1930s-50s) = berk (i.e. a fool) or Charlie Hunt = cunt
 * Cheese 'n' kisses = missus = wife [dubious, see Trouble below]
 * China = china plate = mate
 * Cobblers = cobblers' awls = balls or bollocks (i.e. testicles, but usually meant in the sense of 'rubbish' as in "You're talking a load of cobblers")
 * Cock and hen = ten
 * Creamed = cream crackered = knackered (i.e. exhausted or beaten)
 * Currant bun = sun or The Sun newspaper
 * Daffy Ducked = fucked (as in broken, not working or fouled up)
 * Daisies = daisy roots = boots
 * Dame Judy = Judy Dench = stench
 * Dead 'orse = sauce, as in a dog's eye and dead 'orse = a meat pie and sauce
 * Derby Kell = Derby Kelly = belly (see Music Hall song Boiled beef and Carrots)
 * Desmond = Desmond Tutu = 2.2 (lower second class Bachelor's degree using UK system)
 * Dicky = dicky dirt = shirt
 * Dicky or dickie = Dickie Bird = word = as in "not a dickie", or even "not a dickie bird"
 * Dog = dog and bone = phone
 * Dog's eye = pie, as in a dog's eye and dead 'orse = a meat pie and sauce
 * Donald Ducked = fucked (as in broken, not working or fouled up)
 * Doris Day = gay
 * Duck and dive = skive
 * Ducks and geese = police ("pleece")
 * Duke of Kent = rent, also bent
 * Dukes = Duke[s] of York = fork, i.e. hand, now chiefly when balled into a fist
 * Dustbin lid = kid
 * Eagle and Hind = blind ("Eagle and Hind" is a common British pub sign) (disability rhyming slang)
 * Eartha kitt = shit
 * East and west = breast(s)
 * Economics = loo = bathroom (from voo doo economics)
 * Eighty-sixed = nixed (as in kicked- or thrown-out) [American rhyming slang from the 1930s]
 * Elephants = elephant's trunk = drunk
 * Farmers = Farmer Giles = piles (slang for haemorrhoids)
 * Fatboy Slim = gym
 * Fireman's hose = nose
 * Flowery dell = (prison) cell
 * Fourby = four by two (a common size of timber) = Jew
 * Four wheel skid = Yid (a Jewish person)
 * Fox = fox and weasel = diesel
 * Frank Zappa = crapper (lavatory)
 * Frazer = Frazer Nash = slash = to urinate
 * Front wheel = front wheel skid = Yid = Jew
 * Gareth = Gareth Hunt (English actor) = cunt
 * Gary Ablett (Australian Rules (AFL) footballer) = (ecstasy) tablet
 * Gary Glitter = shitter (anus) ("He took it up the Gary Glitter")
 * Gay 'n' hearty = party
 * George Raft = draught
 * Geoff = Geoff Hurst (English footballer) = First (degree result)
 * Germans = German bands = hands
 * Gianluca Vialli = Charlie = cocaine
 * Ginger = ginger beer = queer
 * Granite = granite rock = cock (penis)
 * Gregory = Gregory Peck = neck, or cheque
 * Grim 'n' gory = story
 * Grumble = grumble and grunt = cunt (a girl, as in "a nice piece of grumble")
 * Gypsy's = gypsy's kiss = piss
 * Half-inch = pinch (i.e. steal)
 * Half ounce of baccy (i.e. tobacco) = Paki (pejorative term for Pakistani)
 * Hampsteads = Hampstead Heath = teeth
 * Hampton = Hampton Wick = prick (i.e. penis)
 * Hamilton = Hamilton Accie = Paki
 * Hank = Hank Marvin (guitarist in The Shadows) = starvin'
 * Harry holt = bolt (to run away)
 * Honky tonk = plonk (cheap wine)
 * Hovis = brown bread = dead
 * Iron = iron hoof = poof
 * Jack = Jack Jones = alone ("On my Jack" = "On my own")
 * Jack and Jill = restaurant bill or contraceptive pill, depending on context
 * Jack Horner = corner
 * Jam jar = car
 * Jam tart = heart
 * Jay kay = takeaway
 * Jessica = Jessica Tandy = Brandy.
 * J. Arthur = J. Arthur Rank (1930s UK flour magnate and film producer) = wank (i.e. masturbate)
 * Jimmy = Jimmy Riddle (unknown person, not the character killed during the Waco siege) = piddle or widdle (urinate)
 * Jekyll and Hyde = snide
 * Joe Blakes = the shakes = experienced after a heavy night drinking
 * Joe Blake = a snake
 * Judiths = Judith Chalmers = farmers = Farmer Giles = piles (haemorrhoids)
 * Jugs = jugs of beer = ears
 * Jungle Jim = Tim (Irish Catholic, usually a Celtic supporter)
 * Kerry = Kerry Packered = knackered (worn out, broken or tired)
 * Khyber = Khyber Pass = arse
 * Kick and prance = dance
 * Lady Godiva = fiver (i.e. five-pound note)
 * Leo = Leo Sayer = all dayer ("I'm on a Leo" — drinking all day at the pub)
 * Lionels = Lionel Blairs (English variety performer) = flares (as in flared trousers)
 * Listerine = [from "Anti-septic" derived from "septic tank" = "yank"] disliking Americans [Listerine is clever slang but isn't really rhyming slang]
 * Loaf = loaf of bread = head ("use your loaf")
 * Loop the loop = soup ("nice cup of loop the loop").
 * Marie Corelli = belly = stomach
 * Merchant banker = wanker
 * Mickey Bliss = piss (as in "take the Mickey" = "take the piss" = satirise)
 * Mickey Mouse(r) = Scouse(r) = person from Liverpool
 * Minces = mince pies = eyes
 * Moby Dick = sick
 * Mutton = Mutt and Jeff = deaf = named after Mutt and Jeff, two early 20th century comic strip characters (also rendered "Mutton Jeff")
 * Nails 'n' screws = news
 * Nat King Cole = Dole (usually Old King Cole)
 * Nelson = Nelson Mandela = Stella (Stella Artois), a Belgian brand of lager
 * Nobbies = Nobby Stiles (English footballer) = piles (haemorrhoids)
 * North and south = mouth
 * Nuclear Sub = corner pub
 * Oily = oily rag = fag (i.e. cigarette)
 * Old Jack Lang = slang
 * Old King Cole = dole
 * Ones and twos = shoes (doubtful, see Rhythms)
 * Optic = optic nerve = perv = to look, usually with a sexual nuance, or a pervert
 * Orchestras = orchestra stalls = balls (Orchestra stalls = part of a concert or other hall. Example = "A kick in the orchestras.") [Coincidentally, "orchi-" is also the Greek root meaning "testicle."]
 * Oxford = Oxford scholar = dollar (Five shillings in pre-decimal currency)
 * Pat Malone = alone
 * Peckham Rye = tie (i.e. necktie)
 * Pedigree chum = bum (i.e. buttocks)
 * Pen and ink = stink
 * Pete Tong = Wrong (Also used in the name of a movie "It's all gone Pete Tong")
 * Pigs ears = beers (Ale)
 * Pineapple = chapel (Roman Catholic Church)
 * Ping-Pong = strong
 * Plaster = Plaster of Paris = Aris = Aristotle = bottle = bottle and glass = arse (a three-stage rhyme) ]
 * Plates = plates of meat = feet
 * Porky = pork pie = lie, e.g. "He's telling porkies!"
 * Pony = pony and trap = crap (note: Cockneys also use "pony" to mean £25 — hopefully the meaning is clear from the context)
 * Pride and joy = boy
 * Rabbit = rabbit and pork = talk, as in "She can rabbit on."
 * Radio Rental = mental.
 * Raspberry = raspberry tart = fart (as in "blowing raspberry/ies" = making rasping noises with your mouth)
 * Raspberry ripple = cripple (disability rhyming slang)
 * Read 'n' Write = fight
 * Richard = Richard the Third = turd (lump of faeces)
 * Ringo's = car keys (ringo starr = richard starkey = car key)
 * Road cone = motor neurone (disability rhyming slang)
 * Rock 'n' roll = Dole
 * Round the houses = trousers
 * Rub-a-dub-dub = a sub (an advance on wages)
 * Rubber and plastic = spastic (i.e. cerebral palsy) (disability rhyming slang)
 * Rubbity = rub-a-dub-dub (or just rub-a-dub) = pub = public house
 * Ruby = Ruby Murray (popular singer in the 1950s born in Belfast) = curry
 * Salmon and trout = snout = tobacco/cigarettes
 * Saucepans = saucepan lids = kids
 * Scarper = not rhyming slang, derived from the Italian word 'scappare' meaning 'escape'. Commonly and incorrectly ascribed to rhyming slang for Scapa Flow.
 * Scooby Doo = clue, as in "Sorry mate, haven't got a Scooby Doo". Alternative usage "I'm scoobied".
 * Septic (often "Seppo") = septic tank = Yank (slang for an American)
 * Sexton Blake = steak
 * Sherbet = Sherbet Dab (child's sweet with Licorice & Sherbet) = (taxi) cab
 * Sherman = Sherman Tank = wank. Also Yank, i.e. American.
 * Sigourney = Sigourney Weaver = beaver (vagina)
 * Single = single fish = pish (urinate)
 * Skin = skin and blister = sister
 * Sky = sky rocket = pocket
 * Sky diver = fiver (i.e. a five-pound note)
 * Snout = salmon and trout = smoked salmon = smoke = a cigarette
 * Stoke-on-Trent = bent (homosexual)
 * Strawberry roan = motor neurone (disease) (disability rhyming slang)
 * Saint Louis Blues = shoes.
 * Sweaty = sweaty sock = jock (a derogatory term for a Scottish person)
 * Sweeney = Sweeny Todd = Flying Squad a serious crime, fast response metropolitan police dept.
 * Syrup / sirrup = syrup of figs = wig(s)
 * Taters = potatoes in the mould = cold (e.g. "It's bleedin' taters!")
 * Tea leaf = thief
 * Teapot Lid = Yid (a Jewish person)
 * The Sweeney = Sweeney Todd = Flying Squad, a special division of the Metropolitan Police; used as the title of TV series The Sweeney
 * Thrup'ny bits = tits (breasts) threepenny bit (an obsolete pre-decimal coin worth three old pennies-when there was 240 pennies to a pound)
 * Tiddly = tiddly winks = drinks
 * Titfer = tit for tat = hat
 * Thomas the Tank = wank.
 * Thomas the Rhymer = alzheimer (disease) (disability rhyming slang)
 * Tod = Tod Sloane = own (as in "on your tod", meaning "alone")
 * Tom Dick or Tom and Dick = sick
 * Tom = Tomfoolery = jewellery
 * Tom Kite = shite
 * Tom Tit = shit
 * Treacle = treacle tart = heart or sweetheart
 * Trouble = trouble and strife = wife
 * Tulips and roses — multiple sclerosis (disability rhyming slang)
 * Two-an = two-and-eight = state (as in "He was in a right two-and-eight.")
 * Vera = Vera Lynn (famous British wartime singer)= gin, heroin
 * Vitus Geralitis = arthritis (disability rhyming slang)
 * Wallace = Wallace and Gromit = Vomit, as in "it made me want to wallace".
 * Wally = Wally Grout = shout (buy a round of drinks), as in "It's your Wally." Also stout or snout depending on context [could be Australian, Wally Grout being an Australian Cricketer.]
 * Walter(s) = Walter Mitty = titty (breast) = as in "a crackin' pair of walters"
 * Whistle = whistle and flute = suit = as in "a nice whistle"
 * Winona Ryder = Cider
 * Willy = Willy Woofter = poofter (Homosexual) Also Wooly

Barefootguru 02:51, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

I have come across the following: 1)Jack Palance-dance 2)A Laugh & A Prank -wank --
 * I'm really glad this list has been pulled. It was full of utter rubbish and blatant non-cockney stuff. Much better to leave three undisputed "classic" examples. MRSC 06:50, 11 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Glad it's still here for our amusment though. Trouble with Wicktionary is it's getting immensely compicated, trying to define every word in every language in every other language, that's probably 2E12 definitons, plus entymology, usage etc.... See for example Ginger beer, which has traslated the primary meaning into Polish and Slovene, and the CRS meaning only into English - if that's a translation.  Rich Farmbrough 15:12, 12 October 2005 (UTC)


 * You may have been a little overzealous; a few of the terms are still used in the article (berk, dukes) without a complete explanation of their meaning. Pimlottc 08:39, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
 * By the time I got to it, berk was defined in the article, but I don't see the harm in reintroducing "dukes" to the glossary. The alternative would be to define it in the sentence about American use, which would be pretty convoluted and ungainly, IMO. Lusanaherandraton 07:02, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

07/19/2012: 'Jeremy Hunt' is now commonly used as an alternative to 'Berkeley Hunt' - just to demonstrate in the article how fast cockney rhyming slang moves...which from a linguistics perspective, is important. 212.139.103.212 (talk) 18:33, 7 October 2012 (UTC)twl212.139.103.212 (talk) 18:33, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

FYI: New Template
What is this?! --FlareNUKE 10:21, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it’s meant to be one of those ‘I speak this language at level x’ boxes you put on your user page… Barefootguru 18:11, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Does it work in reverse?
e.g. Does anyone ever say, for example, "I'm going to eat some stairs" (i.e. apples and pears)? (I'm afraid I couldn't work out how to get the title of this section onto a new line - tried blank lines and  ) Arganoid 01:16, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Bap?
The section on Northern Ireland usage says that calling hair "bap" has something to do with "loaf of bread"="head." Can anyone clarify? Lusanaherandraton 07:02, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * 'Bap' is a largish round flat bread roll. It's commonly used in particular parts of Great Britain - although if I suggest one or two I will inevitably miss one out.   (ponder... there's enough material to start an article on "Regional British words used for bread rolls") --JH49S (talk) 08:09, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Dukes
According to this, there is a derivation that goes from Dukes of York, to fork, which implies hand, which implies fist. According to the Romani Language article also in Wikipedia, 'dukes' is a word borrowed from the Gypsies, directly translated as 'fist'. Can anyone provide at least a personal knowledge of the CRS derivation? 75.13.41.181 05:44, 20 June 2006 (UTC)Patrick
 * "Dukes" is not CRS, but is, as you correctly state directly "borrowed" from the Romani language. Hope this helps. Lion King 23:52, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Both sides of my family are from Millwall and Southwark - not one member including myself has ever heard of "Fork" as being CRS for "Hand". The correct CRS is "German", German Band = Hand, from the old music hall song; "Down At The Old Bull And Bush" ("hear the little German Band.. just let me hold your hand dear"). Hope this helps. Lion King 16:45, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Removed. Rich Farmbrough, 10:27 12 September 2006 (GMT).

Use Modern Examples!
Apples and pears? Frog and Toad? Barnet Fair? I think we should get rid of these and replace them with examples that are used by people other than pensioners. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.43.2.155 (talk • contribs • WHOIS )

I find this comment "ageist" and highly offensive. Without "pensioners" there would be no rhyming slang - do you think it came into being sometime in the late 1990's? Lion King 12:06, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

You find something you read on the internet by someone you dont even know offensive? You need a girlfriend. And a life. But no, i dont think it came into being in the 1990s, i was merely saying that people dont use apples and pears etc any more. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.43.2.155 (talk • contribs • WHOIS).


 * You know, there's not much in the world as pathetic as someone like you who spends their lives stewing about whether other people have a "girlfriend". You've just lost whatever support you might have had from me for your arrogant assumptions about things that are none of your business. 70.105.41.182 14:01, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Especially when they state blatant assumptions as facts and assume that just because it's written online (er, typed, but the point is still there) it's less offensive than if it were to be said to one's face. CameoAppearance 02:32, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I dont have your support? Oh dear, thats a shame. So...back to apples and pears... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.43.2.155 (talk • contribs • WHOIS).

For entering into such a petty, mud-slinging debate, I think you're all twats! :D Hang your heads in shame, stop the personal attacks, and get on with the editing of the encyclopaedia. --84.71.118.198 23:38, 8 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I take it that you consider calling people "twats", not to be a personal attack then? Interesting.... Lion King 15:47, 10 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Get a sense of humour, you... oh, for crying out loud, see what you made me do? --84.71.118.198 10:18, 15 July 2006 (UTC)


 * A Sof! A Sof! Alaichem sholom. Lion King 13:57, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry I added 'bread' before I read the comment, but I then thought "this is an important example because it is used even in the US", so I left it. JMcC 18:13, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

As I am not familiar with Rhyming Slang I would find it very helpful if the examples were in some way classified as "obsolete", "obsolescent", if they are no longer used or if their use is restricted to the older generation of speakers.Unoffensive text or character 09:37, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I stall have a large batch of Heat (magazine) from c.2003 and the term "dodgy barnet" is ubiquitous. Format 21:23, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Modern examples of rhyming slang go out of fashion almost as soon as they are in. They are unimagninative and usually involve the name of some celebrity. The traditional ones have stood the test of time - Apples and Pears is an excellent example. Another example: the traditional rhyming slang for "beer" is "Pig's Ear" and preferable to Brittany Spears - Beers, which can only be used as a plural. How do you say you want one beer? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.218.42.62 (talk) 21:00, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
 * There are far too many examples, and I agree that ones based on 'celebrities' names are ephemeral eg James Hunt → Gareth Hunt → James Blunt. But that's the reason this slang, or any slang (or indeed any language) endures - it's adaptable. If you have no mates, and require a single beer, you could always ask for a Germaine Greer.  pablo hablo. 23:09, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Even though there are examples that may be used less today (and who can verify that here?), they will clearly continue to serve to enlighten people about the history of rhyming slang. --JH49S (talk) 08:09, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The English language is constantly evolving and it's also true for Rhyming Slang (Cockney or otherwise). A source, whether it be dictionary or encyclopedia, should be slow to introduce words that are recent and slower to remove words because somebody believes they are archaic.

CRS?
Must we have an acronym in this article? Although the Manual of Style says nothing to forbid it, it looks unprofessional to me. I certainly haven't ever seen anyone use such a term in print before, and it doesn't seem to have a purpose other than you guys being too lazy to type 'Cockney rhyming slang' out in full. The Google Test will back me up: 189,000 for "Cockney rhyming slang", and 452 for that phrase plus "CRS", a lot of which are probably Wikipedia leechers anyway. --84.71.118.198 23:38, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

No Change, Only Rearrange
I rearranged the article into a more logical flow. Also, spritzed up the formatting. --TallulahBelle 18:50, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

The references section does not cite its references!
Ahh, Wikipedia, you've done it again. --210.49.99.248 12:13, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I'd like to suggest we pull this tag. The bloody section IS a list of references! RandyKaelber 04:21, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Why the length limit?
Hello - A comment line in this article says we shouldn't add any more examples. But why not? As they say, the Wikipedia is not paper. The only legitimate worry I can think of is that the entries might not be authentic. To cover this, we should require that each new entry be backed up by a reference source and footnoted with

The reason I'm asking is because a random user asked on the Talk page for piano (which I edit) why "Joanna" is slang for "piano". It ought to be possible to refer people to Cockney rhyming slang to explain such cases.

"Joanna" would in fact qualify for inclusion under my proposed criterion, as it is listed in the most authoritative of sources, the OED. Cheers, Opus33 04:24, 13 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, we really want a length limit. The reason is policy: For more detailed reasons, see WP:WINAD, particularly the section 'Wikipedia is not a usage guide' where it says:


 * "Wikipedia is not a hacker/computer usage or other slang and idiom guide. We aren't teaching people how to talk like a hacker or a Cockney chimney-sweep; we're writing an encyclopedia. See Knocking her dead one on the nose each and every double trey for a historical example."


 * --ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 12:25, 13 March 2007 (UTC)


 * If you want to add more examples of rhyming slang to answer the Joanna page, you certainly should do so - but do it at the right place. Wiktionary accepts and even seeks those definitions and is well-formatted to maintain them.  See, for example, definition 4 of frog (or the longer version at frog and toad).  Wikipedia, being an encyclopedia and not a dictionary, is not structured to maintain lists like that.  We should have a few examples to explain and synopsize the concept but must limit ourselves to that.  Rossami (talk) 22:03, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

How does it spread?
Something I've always wondered about. How does a phrase become 'current'? After a certain point, enough popular people using it would cause a larger view, but how does someone create a new one? Does he just start using it and explain it every time, or what? --StarChaser Tyger 05:01, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

origins
Something that amazes me in discussions about how various verbal styles develop: the absence of the word "fun". I searched the text in the article and in the discussion here, and it surprised me that "fun" did not make an appearance. I suppose I'm just stupendously naive -- but while the various hypotheses offered for "why" people start talking the way they do and why and how various forms catch on and spread are fascinating, I find it odd that no one seems to entertain the radical idea that people do it because they enjoy it. Bacrito 06:39, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

"a garden with Richard"
I couldn't find anything on the Web except this article to attest to such an expression. Bacrito 06:51, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Page move
I have moved the page for three reasons:
 * We didn't have an article on RS in general (i.e. non-Cockney RS)
 * I don't believe it's an established fact that RS originated solely with Cockneys/East Enders. There are examples from other languages, not to mention in America, Ireland, Scotland, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Since it was not documented in London until the mid-19th century it's even possible that it originated elsewhere...
 * All of these places have their own localised RS. Chunder for vomit originated as Chunder Loo, an Aussie cartoon character and Aussie RS for "spew". My dad, like a lot of Aussies of his generation, refers to snakes as "Joe Blake", I bet you don't get many of them in the East End. "Barry Crocker" (for shocker) has come into widespread use in Australia and has been traced back to one person (Fatty Vautin); bet you never hear that one in the East End. And so on.
 * Who's to say that CRS doesn't pick up rhyming slang from elsewhere? This page used to have RS terms that are familiar to me as an Aussie. It appears they have since been removed as uncommon or extinct in CRS. Q.E.D. I think. Cheers, Grant  |  Talk  16:30, 21 November 2007 (UTC)


 * You rest your case? Based on what? Conjecture? Let's look at your source, namely: "Most likely it was the lexical invention of Cockney and Irish navvies and only later made its way into the cant of the victorian underworld." So Irish navvies "invented" it along with Cockneys. No. Irish navvies didn't even understand it, let alone help to "invent" it, Henry Mayhew writes in London Labour and the London Poor: "The slang language of the Costermongers is not very remarkable for orignality of constuction; but they boast that it is known only to themselves; it is far beyond the Irish, and puzzles the Jews." So that takes Irish navvies out of the picture. I think we all went on a day trip to Earls Court and picked it up from you lot, me old cobbler - yor avin a bubble! La linqua non ha ossa ma rompe il dorso! Lion King (talk) 11:38, 22 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Australian Rhyming Slang Lion King (talk) 13:34, 22 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't know if Australians did invent RS; I wouldn't assume that, any more than I would assume that cockneys did. It is possible: many Australian slang terms which have made their way into English more generally. The start date usually given for RS in the UK, being the 1850s, coincides with the Australian gold rushes, during which there was a phenomenal flow of people backwards and forwards between the UK and Australia. More research is needed.


 * We should accept that many Australian and British slang words have a wide commonality of usage, even though there are examples that clearly originated in one country or the other. It's easily explained by the extremely strong connection between the two, historically and linguistically. A fertile ground for slang. --JH49S (talk) 08:09, 20 March 2010 (UTC)


 * The Convict Creations site is a bit of a J. Arthur Rank (IMO); riddled with errors and there is hardly a reference to be found. Mayhew's LL & LP is a well-known and reasonably respectable source but it is only one source and who knows what Mayhew's research was like. I'm sure people just off the boat, such as Yiddish-speaking Eastern European Jews and Gaelic-speaking Irish people, did struggle with Cockney slang. To say that they can't have invented RS is only correct if one assumes that RS started with CRS. And we don't know that for sure.


 * Anyway, regardless of where it started there are several forms that now have little or nothing to do with the CRS, although m=none of the variants are sealed off from each other, and there appaers to be a fair exchange of RS terms among fellow English speakers. I doubt that it is possible, in a lot of cases, to say "this term comes from CRS and that one did not". Grant  |  Talk  15:07, 22 November 2007 (UTC)


 * J.Arthur? lol! Now that one, coming from J. Arthur Rank is very suspect, although I used it along with "Barclays" when I was a kid. There are however, documented examples from records that were held in Horsemonger Lane Goal (which was between Kent Street and The Elephant & Castle) from the 1830s in which (English) inmates were compaining of "Pains in their Plates" and that they "worried about the Trouble" - come on, you know that Cockneys invented everything, worth having that is:) Cheers! Lion King (talk) 16:02, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

World War II
It should be noted CRS was used by the British to confuse Germans during WW II sometimes in case of interception. Rmccoy0017 (talk) 19:19, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

General cleanup tag on Rhyming slang
Hi Mizu onna sango15. You added a general cleanup tag to this article on 21 May. As the article isn't on your personal cleanup list, can you explain what needs particular attention please? There are several ways to do this: This will help to motivate a cleanup, given that there's no-one obviously taking care of the article (it has been edited 1116 times by 653 different editors, more than 50% of them anonymous, and no single contributor has made more than 5% of the edits in the past twelve months). Thanks - Pointillist (talk) 09:10, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Use more specific cleanup tags in the article - there are over 100 specific tags (see this list) that can help.
 * Put a comment on the article's talk page here.
 * Put a note on the May 2008 cleanup list.
 * Yes, I must've neglected to add it to my list. My appologies. I see it is a rather inactive article; I'll do my best to assess this, and perhaps, if I get the time, clean it up myself. I shall also use a more explicit tag to specify what it is I think needs to be improved. Again, I appologise for the mistake. :) Cheers, -- Mizu onna sango15 / 水 女  珊瑚15  18:55, 27 May 2008 (UTC).

Pommy
POME is an acronym for Prisoner Of Mother England. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.173.188.154 (talk) 02:46, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I've also been told that POM is the Australian slang term for an English-born person, and is derived from "Prisoner of the Motherland". 64.47.42.66 (talk) 22:36, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

That's bollocks. Acronymic etymologies are never true, simply because we don't use acronyms in every day speech. The same goes for "NAFF" supposedly meaning "Not available for fucking". Again this is simply bollocks. Most likely Pommy is an abbreviation of Pomegranate.


 * I agree. Anything other than Pomegranate is a load of fetid dingoes' kidneys. I have always understood the origin of "Pommie" to be Pomegranate, because there was a perceived similarity between the color of Pomegranates and the faces of newly arrived British immigrants who weren't so used to the effects of the sun.  And, even now, there is a product called "Pom" which is pure pomegranate juice. --JH49S (talk) 08:09, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

My understanding is that it was derived from POHM written on the back of convicts uniforms during transportation and it stood for Prisoner Of His/Her Majesty. its also where the arrows on convicts uniforms come from as this was a symbol associated with any item belonging to the government  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tooty1967 (talk • contribs) 14:35, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

This issue is addressed here. Format (talk) 20:42, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

‘Cockney Rhyming Slang’ or ‘Rhyming Slang’ – Criteria for a rewrite
The issue of whether this entry should be listed under ‘Rhyming Slang’ or ‘Cockney Rhyming Slang’ has been controversial among contributors to the talk page.

Much of the rhyming slang used today clearly did not originate among Cockneys. I agree that ‘Britney Spears’ as a rhyme for ‘beers’ does not have more than a passing place in an erudite discussion of Cockney rhyming slang. On the other hand, usage of rhyming slang as used by Cockneys has a documented history dating back to the early- to mid-19th century and for this reason I cannot see any credible reason why ‘Cockney Rhyming Slang’ should not have an entry in its own right in this encyclopaedia. Neither can I see any reason why ‘Rhyming Slang’ should not also have its own entry, or ‘Australian Rhyming Slang’, or ‘American Rhyming Slang’ and so on if contributors wish to provide them. But if a reader wishes to research ‘Cockney Rhyming Slang’ and types those words into the Search field, that is the entry he expects to find. This also makes sense in the context of WikiProject London.

As correctly indicated at the head of the entry the current article requires a complete rewrite. I am happy to do so, but first I would like to see a credible and persuasive reason why 'Cockney Rhyming Slang' should not stand in its own right.

HonestArry (talk) 10:02, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * It'd be nice if there were conclusive evidence about when and where rhyming slang originated. Sadly there isn't, unless you've found some.  pablo hablo. 10:42, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Eric Partridge, the acknowleged authority on English slang, in the Penguin Dictionary of Historical Slang (1976) is quoted p12: "Rhyming slang dates from ca 1840; originated among Cockneys, where now still commonest; eschewed by the middle and upper classes ...".

HonestArry (talk) 12:39, 5 January 2010 (UTC)


 * An earlier commentator (and possibly Partridge's source for the 1840s date) John Camden Hotten in his 1859 Dictionary of Modern Slang, Cant and Vulgar Words describes rhyming slang as "The secret language of chaunters and patterers"(page 133) and makes a distinction between them and costermongers. London chaunters and patterers were based in Seven Dials, but were a "nomadic tribe", travelling back and forth to all large provincial towns (p135).

Even if we accept that rhyming slang originated in what we now know as London, Seven Dials is nowhere near the East End. You would need to define "cockney" as anyone from London (I think that this is closer to its original meaning, certainly it is still used in the North of England as synonymous with "Londoner") and forget about the "East-end costermonger" myth. All in all I think this article is at the right title, "Rhyming slang" includes what is widely known as "cockney rhyming slang", and anyone searching Wikipedia for "cockney rhyming slang" will be directed here. pablo hablo. 13:04, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Seven Dials is about three miles from Bethnal Green Road. Nowhere near the East End?? With respect, I don't feel that this argument negates mine for having a separate entry for cockney rhyming slang. HonestArry (talk) 13:58, 5 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Three miles maybe, but one's in the "East End" and one's not.
 * "a separate entry for 'cockney rhyming slang'"? That's a different matter. Personally I think it would be a pointless fork. But edits like this are not about creating a separate article.  pablo hablo. 15:24, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

'Arry my son, you could always start a separate CRS article, but that would obviously duplicate a lot of what is here.

A problem here is that slang is often localised and/or influenced by media exposure. Consequently, it seems, non-Cockney examples have been weeded out by a succession of editors, simply because the Cockney examples are the only ones they have heard with their own ears. (By way of analogy, this is a bit like a WP editor who told me that non-spherical balls are not balls because "balls are spherical".)

Is there any any problem with WikiProject London using the article with the present title and content, once it is fully referenced? I'm sure I don't need to explain what is wrong with tailoring the content/title of an article to suit the aesthetics of one project.

Cheers, Grant  |  Talk  09:42, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Sorry if I misled anyone by referring to a separate article on Cockney Rhyming Slang. I meant this present article with the word ‘Cockney’ in front of ‘Rhyming Slang’. Personally, I feel that it is more likely than not that rhyming slang originated in London, probably in the East End. But whether it was in the East End, Seven Dials, or anywhere else in London, and whether among costermongers or itinerant salespeople, is largely irrelevant. The practice became strongly associated with a group of Londoners called ‘Cockneys’ and this is the context in which rhyming slang is extensively perceived today.

My point was, or was supposed to be, that if we accept this origin then the title 'Cockney Rhyming Slang' is a logical one and the article can easily encompass any other form of rhyming slang. If other writers wish to go into a particular variant in more detail they are free to write separate articles.

Personally, I don’t have a problem with keeping the title as 'Rhyming Slang' rather than 'Cockney Rhyming Slang' provided the article gets rewritten, which I am still happy to take on. My main concern was to get the title right. There are a few other issues that need addressing.

In order to tidy up the current first sentence of the introduction to ‘History’ could somebody please provide examples and citations for languages other than English that use rhyming slang. Also, the final sentence of this paragraph suggests that rhyming slang stopped being common in Australian slang after the late 20th century, which is probably not the intention.

Does anyone have a citation for the origin of ‘berk’ as a contraction of ‘Berkeley hunt’? In southern British English, ‘Berkeley’ is pronounced ‘barkley’, so ‘berk’ seems an unlikely contraction - although it would work in American English. ‘Berk’ is also listed as a contraction of ‘Berkshire hunt’ in the list of Common Examples. Which one is correct?

The list of Common Examples is much too long. Since comprehensive dictionaries are available elsewhere I suggest that the list of Common Examples be removed and that selected examples be included in the body of the article to illustrate particular points.

The section on ‘Rhyming slang in popular culture’ is out of hand. I suggest that a rewrite should include a few examples, no more than around five, included in the body of the article and not given as a list.

Without meaning disrespect to any individual authors I suggest that a long list of random references is not necessary and that many of the existing references should be removed.

HonestArry (talk) 06:14, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

No comments received to the contrary so I have proceeded with a rewrite on the above basis. Additional work is still required. HonestArry (talk) 13:58, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Belatedly: Arry I am glad that the article hasn't been moved to "Cockney rhyming slang". As an Aussie with a maternal grandfather born and brought up in Silvertown, perhaps I have a unique perspective on this ;-)


 * I do feel that the problem of a shortage of serious research leads to paradoxes such as: while there are well-known or well-documented Cockney examples, the well-known are not necessarily well-documented and vice versa.


 * Also, the research problem is even greater for the non-Cockney examples. That in itself does not mean that they are less significant. As I have said before: there is a BIG, insidious, temptation, if we start with the assumption that rhyming slang is primarily Cockney, to delete examples of rhyming slang that do not fit that idea. That is what is known, in WP circles, as systemic bias. Cheers, Grant  |  Talk  03:19, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

"Chevy Chase" from "Chevy Chase" the comedian/actor? Eh???
This article explains the origin of the phrase "Chevy Chase" (face) to have been Chevy Chase, the comedian/actor. I don't think so. I believe that it existed for some years before Mr. Chase became sufficiently well known in England to have something named for him. I believe that it either comes from "The Ballad of Chevy Chase", or - the place that gave the ballad its name - Cheviot Chase, which is part of the Cheviot Hills (which are around the eastern border of England and Scotland) and which was set aside as an open space for hunting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.21.193.230 (talk) 06:35, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
 * For anyone who missed an aspect of 66's dry humour, it should be pointed out that the US comedian Cornelius Crane "Chevy" Chase was presumably (self?) nicknamed for one of the places in the US called Chevy Chase after the original British locality. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 17:54, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Also popular in Ireland
Not sure where to mention it, but cockney rhyming slang is also popular in Ireland, in the large cities at least. Gronky (talk) 19:56, 15 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Here's proof: Ross_o'carroll_kelly. Set in contemporary Dublin using colloquial Dublin English, it's a set of 15 books that have been pretty much all best sellers in Ireland.  Rhyming slang is used throughout. Gronky (talk) 12:30, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

China Afrikanerism
As with the generic use of butchers, another example: China is an Afrikanerisms for friend, but I have never met an Afrikaner who knew that it derived from the the rhyme "china plate = mate". (see List of South African slang words). If someone has a reliable sources it would make an extra tip bit for the article. -- PBS (talk) 22:39, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

bread
Americans (of which I am one) commonly use the word "bread" to mean money. Does anyone know if this is a reference to the CRS bread→bread and honey→money? Dick Kimball (talk) 18:59, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
 * This site seems to think so . The expression is also still used generally, if infrequently, in the UK, although was more commonly associated with 60s pop/ hippy culture. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:15, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

ATM Usage
Would it be appropriate to include mention of ATM machines speaking RS? Ref: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/money/consumer_affairs/article6808494.ece Kevink707 (talk) 15:07, 3 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Seeing as you've found a reliable source, and it's certainly on topic, I say 'By all means!' Fascinating article btw; I see that was a year ago - how has it turned out since then, I wonder? Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 15:18, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

List of words and phrases.
I have been trying to tidy up the article on British slang (which is mostly a list of slang words) and it occurred to me that some of the words/phrases could be moved here. Having read the talk page, it appears there used to be a list but it was removed. Is that right and is the consensus still against a list?--Ykraps (talk) 08:03, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
 * As per normal WP guidelines, we shouldn't turn this article in to a list, but a specific article like List of rhyming slang might be a useful addition. OwainDavies (about)(talk) edited at 09:11, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay, well I might start one later then.--Ykraps (talk) 09:49, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

CRS meaning
What the F does CRS mean? There is no reference to Cuntin' Ruddy Stupid (CRS) or CRS (Cuntin' Ruddy Stupid) or whatever. EXPLAIN what you mean when using initials. Molbrum2 (talk) 16:03, 22 April 2012 (UTC)


 * See here and here. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 22:20, 22 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I dind't realise we were here simply to justify Google. That helps to explain, but doesn't wholly convince. Is there just one good secondary source? Or is it a load of old Google pony? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:31, 22 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Well you could take your pick from here Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 22:37, 22 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I could. But I'll leave that one to you. Good old Google, eh? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:56, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Funny?
Forgive my ignorance, but I can't see anything terribly funny about this kind of 'joke' - it's hard to understand to anyone who doesn't know the omitted words, and it seems the whole concept behind it falls flat in globalized English usage... I think it'd help if there were a short list of the most commonly used 'euphemisms' up front. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.16.80.82 (talk) 08:31, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

HARRIS i.e She has a tidy harris
The word HARRIS is commenly used when refering to somebodys rear, the question i raise is where the word HARRIS originates from? A good example being "She has a tidy Harris"


 * Perhaps a splitting of the word arse into two sylablles? Just a drunken guess... quercus robur 00:40, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)


 * Prolly a couple of years too late but nm. 'aris is short for 'Aristotle', 'Aristotle' is CRS for 'bottle', 'bottle' is short for 'bottle and glass' which is CRS for arse.

Rhyming Slang Arbitration Board
I took this sentence out:
 * It should be noted that not all these slang phrase examples, nor their definitions, are generally accepted as equally valid.

Accepted by whom? I think it's valid if it a) rhymes and b) people use it. I know that the French have a government department which rules over their language, but I don't think that the (worldwide) community who use rhyming slang do. And if they did it would be just as successful as the French version. Paul Tracyundefined


 * I'm not trying to be prescriptive by any means. As I said above "It's an ever changing language which is why we love it." But the important clause I think is that people use it (and someone else understands it). Just because it rhymes isn't enough. It is meant to be a code to get a meaning across. Anyone can make up a rhyme but if nobody knows what they mean it's not very useful. That's why I apply the pub test, "would it be understood by anyone in an East End pub?" I do have trouble believing some like Joe Bashpoint = Cashpoint. Some examples of where they have been heard, and how often, would always be helpful. There were so many examples in the list of examples that were obviously made up on the spot that I felt I had to do something. SteveCrook 00:26, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)
 * And this is just meant to be for Cockney Rhyming Slang. Any other rhyming slangs can have their own pages and link to this one. SteveCrook

Maybe you could somehow segregate "classic" CRS from "modern" CRS? Wahkeenah 00:33, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Or maybe even let the list of examples be just that, a list of examples. Rather than trying to include everything which I think is probably impossible. SteveCrook 00:48, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

Charing Cross
"The term "Charing Cross" for example (a place in London) has been used to mean "horse" since the mid-19th century[3] but does not rhyme unless "horse" is pronounced as "hoss" - possibly indicating the local-dialect pronunciation of the word at the time."

To my memory (growing up near there and using Charing Cross Station from late 1940s to mid 1960s) the opposite is true: the local pronunciation was Charing Crawse (rhyming with horse). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.159.222.77 (talk) 05:51, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Aris
This has always been my favourite...


 * Aristotle = bottle ->
 * bottle and glass = arse

A two stage rhyme has got to be worth a mention hasn't it?

Artasadrug (talk) 16:50, 2 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Yeah, that is why we have it in paragraph four. Or do you mean it is so good we need to mention it here on the talk page as well? Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 16:58, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
 * probably deserves to have an article of it's own!! Martinevans123 (talk) 20:12, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Untidy reference section
The references are inconsistent: some titles are italicized and some are not. I would suppose that there is a house style which is not being adhered to. 86.185.216.158 (talk) 12:15, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

RHYMING SLANG ON THE MAIN PAGE
RHYMING SLANG ON THE MAIN PAGE

Good afternoon, as you will surely know we are working to bring Rhyming Slang to the main page of Wikipedia, please make your comments in the relevant sections Above.

Yours,

Horatio Snickers (talk) 00:15, 19 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Awwight! Don' getcher 'oratios inna twis'. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195) 212.95.237.92 (talk) 14:44, 8 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Is the title of this section supposed to link to this discussion?--Ykraps (talk) 12:32, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Sub-class of Cockney Slang
You also need to place it within the wider category of Cockney slang, which is generally classified as:
 * Rhyming slang
 * Cant

Extending to backchat, a thieves argot using local references intermingled with the other forms of slang. Backchat is particularly disrespectful to authority, and occasionally surfaces in the popular view of politicians and nobility. It also includes local references. There is some cross-over between the different classes, so you may find individuals nicknames (for example, in "Only Fools and Horses" Del refers to Boycie as "Jaffa" (ie seedless) after he's discovered to have a low sperm count) following similar rules, and prominent local personalities and events also entering the slang reference base. This is truer of the East End than Bermonsey.
 * Rom

A large gypsy community identifiable from its Catholic devotion settled in Bermondsey in the 19th Century, and contributed a number of Rom words such as Rawney ("Princess", now applied to any respectable young woman - it's since extended from the arrival of the Bangladeshi community, which has the same word indicating a possible Bengal origin for some Gypsy tribes) into the Chav slang of the East End. However, the word predates the arival of the Bangladeshi community. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.10.230.15 (talk) 00:15, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Usage
So how many people ever talked like this? how much of the vocabulary did two people who spoke it but did not know each other have in common? Did people talk like this for whole conversations when no one that did not know it was around / or was it only limited to a few gimmicks? --85.151.204.175 (talk) 21:57, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

Edits of this date
I reviewed all appearing citations, completed all book citations, removed redundant citations (using the markup), and in so doing, discovered a host of problems here.

Stated in short, the article is essentially a long tract of WP:original research—paragraph after paragraph of idseas and examples out of editor knowledge and experience, and so without any structure based on scholarly writing. The only sources that are of great value, are the various dictionaries that are cited to justify editor's choices of examples. (Even there, there is no distinction in citing slang dictionary entries, and the introductory material in the dictionaries, wherein the arguments regarding history and evolution would appear; page numbers are given unevenly for the book sources, throughout the article.) But, frankly, for the most part, editors writing here have been very comfortable simply adding material here, without a thought to sourcing at all.

As well, with the addition of the popular culture section, the article is nearly given over wholesale to editors adding whatever case of rhyming slang that they have heard of late, again, without source.

The bottom line is that the article has been bad for some time, and can only get worse, with the patterns that are set by the example of most recent editing (and acceptance of edits).

The long and the short is that an expert is needed to begin to take the article in the direction of being encyclopedic—in structure, so the article is structured the way a review of book by an expert would cover the subject; in terms of categories, so that it includes important scholarly understandings about history, origins, cultural parallels, etc., and excludes much of the overly expansive current stream-of-thought student content; and encyclopedic also in terms of examples (where the current, preeminent appearance given to bulleted rhyming slang for anatomical parts and noises hardly inspires confidence in this article).

Otherwise, please leave the essay (for this is what it currently is, objectively speaking), and especially the citation tags, because the article is off track to being a GA article, until the glaring WP:OR and/or plagiarism issues are addressed. Cheers, Le Prof Leprof 7272 (talk) 10:34, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

I'll leave it to someone else to determine the best way to do it
But not having Ian Dury mentioned somewhere in the music section is definitely a glaring omission, and a rather eminently notable example. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.224.74.221 (talk) 09:04, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

Top of Rome?
"Top of Rom" (home), doesn't even rhyme; never mind that I've no idea what the "Top" of Rome might refer to. I reckon it's a keystroke error for Pope of Rome, which at least rhymes. Unless anyone objects, I'm going to amend it accordingly.

Nuttyskin (talk) 16:45, 28 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Don't know what "Top of Rome" means either but it's listed alpahbetically with phrases beigninning with "T" in the existing ref and supported by the other refs I've added. Mutt Lunker (talk) 17:27, 28 April 2019 (UTC)


 * This has just been reverted; though with my original assertion of a typo (Rom for Rome) included within the reversion.


 * Now, does anyone have any info as to what Top of Rome is supposed to mean or refer to?


 * Nuttyskin (talk) 17:27, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

April
In Only Fools & Horses Del Boy often refers to his bottom as his April but I’ve never understood what the background of this rhyming slang is can anyone help? Penrithguy (talk) 09:35, 6 November 2019 (UTC)


 * April in Paris, aris, Aristotle, bottle, bottle and glass, arse. Mutt Lunker (talk) 10:32, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Suggesting additional section
Seems to me there are several elements not discussed in this article that should be. They are all centered on the understanding of this slang, i.e. Communication.

Specifically that it requires the speaker and the hearer to share a common background and/or experience to be understood. Slang based on place-names or local celebrities will only make sense to those that share these things. The wider the cultural inclusion the great the possibility of understanding. Someone from East End can easily create a slang that someone from Shropshire would never understand and vice versa. Either of them could create mutually understandable slang, however, if they shared a common bound, e.g. military service. So the common bond becomes the focal point of the slang, indeed it is a requirement. Interesting to note that rhyming slang has a unique feature of carrying the key to break the code within the slang itself but only in so far as the speaker and listener share a common bond. This is unlike other slang origins.

The slang also depends on a sharing common accent. Very localized accents can impart an "encoding" that becomes difficult if not impossible to crack. How we pronounce words is almost as important as the word itself when trying to decode the slang. This was touched on in the article concerning the rhyming of cross and horse.

The point being that this would make an excellent topic to explore in this article within the context of communication. And communication, or restriction of communication, is a fundamental purpose in slang.

Do you see other branches of this that could expand this topic? Cwoliver55 (talk) 20:15, 6 February 2020 (UTC)


 * That all seems perfectly valid. But unless you have some good sources which discuss and develop these ideas, it would just be your own WP:OR. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:04, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Barney
Barnaby bright, Barnaby bright, longest day and shortest night. Thus our ancestors would sing on 11th June, St Barnabas' Day. Longest day? Well, at that time it was the longest day. Until we had changed from the Gregorian to the Julian calendar in 1752. . Barnaby Bright, hence fight.--JeremyCorney (talk) 01:04, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

But honestly though, how about some modern examples?
I see the last time someone tried to raise this issue it got into a very silly argument. The point is rhyming slang is alive and well - every Brit likes a cup of Rosie, not to mention a Ruby Murray. So how about some modern examples? Or is this all written for septics?

I agree. I think we should have the terms: rabbit, bristols, septic, cobblers, porkies, butchers, and jack jones. just my opinion.

I'm not a fan of modern examples, because firstly we don't preserve the old stuff well enough, then in the Seventies we got some comic additions, which was probably acceptable, but now anyone can make up anything, usually with the desire to be clever or pretentious. E.g. we had farmers, then Chalfonts (from The Two Ronnies?), and now we have Emma Freuds, as though anyone knows or cares who she is. There was never anything wrong with farmers. I wish people wouldn't use the full expression either. It's cobblers, not cobblers' awls, so why Emma Freuds? Emmas isn't going to work though, is it! Forsyte Saga, Lager, anyone? I don't think so!


 * I have added Gary as a modern example. I can attest it's still in use, I have provided a source evidencing it, and it has an interesting history being clearly linked to Merseyside rather than London. Here's another source in addition to the Vice article I used as the source in the main article https://taleoftwohalves.uk/columnist/gary-ablett-was — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.199.221.58 (talk) 06:59, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

How in the hell....
Can Ian Dury not be mentioned in the music section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.224.73.221 (talk) 21:09, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Scarper off
"Scarper" is given an origin in "Scapa Flow", but the place didn't enter common language as much until the 1919 scuttling there of the German fleet. Instead, the word was documented as long ago as 1851 by Henry Mayhew https://dl.tufts.edu/teiviewer/parent/5x21ts300/chapter/c2s1 under"Scene with two Punchmen", and has a clear Polari connection, not one to Rhyming Slang. I've removed Scarper from the list.JH49S (talk) 17:54, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

"Raspberry" used in the US
Anybody willing to find a source that mentions "blow a raspberry"'s use in the United States? That statement comes from an American. Blue Caper  (talk), 18 December 2012 (UTC) 02:08


 * Anybody willing to find a source that mentions the use of dog, bucket, broomstick, umbrella-stand and hootenanny in American usage? No?! Maybe because they speak English in America, like everyone else in the Anglophone world!
 * Nuttyskin (talk) 17:16, 15 August 2023 (UTC)