Talk:Richard D'Oyly Carte/Archive 1

D'Oyly Carte
I removed extra "D'Oyly's". After the name is first given, Richard D'Oyly Carte the man is always referred to as "Carte," not "D'Oyly Carte." There are many examples of this, including Gilbert's letters to him, which were always "Dear Carte." Similarly, his granddaughter, Dame Bridget D'Oyly Carte, was always "Miss Carte." In contrast, the opera company is always the "D'Oyly Carte Opera Company," or "D'Oyly Carte."

Yes, it can be confusing at first, but one quickly gets used to it. Marc Shepherd 15:20, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

In that case, I suggest you do the same with Mr Carte's own entry, which last time I looked had references to him as "D'Oyly Carte". Birdhurst 21:14, 6 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I tried to catch all of them, but if I find any others I'll correct them. Marc Shepherd 22:16, 6 April 2006 (UTC)


 * It's happened again...someone added extra "D'Oyly's". Except when stating the full name, he was normally referred to as "Carte," not "D'Oyly Carte." Marc Shepherd 02:37, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Expert Needed
This article is incomplete. It skips many years of Carte's history, credits him for keeping the G&S partnership together, but does not mention his role in its dissolution. Marc Shepherd 02:37, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The article has been expanded now. More refining is needed, however, and the article should be check to see if it harmonises well with the articles on Savoy Theatre, Helen Lenoir, and Rupert D'Oyly Carte.  Best regards, -- Ssilvers 02:03, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

The Doctor in Spite of Himself'
I have removed two references to The Doctor in Spite of Himself (1871) because I believe, after checking contemporary press cuttings, that this work was a straight play, albeit presented on the same bill as Carte's operetta, Marie.(e.g. The Era, 27 August 1871; Issue 1718: "...the new management decided upon producing Moliere's comedy Le Medecin Malgre Lui in English, with the title of The Doctor in Spite of Himself, and, by way of variety, commencing with a comic operetta and concluding with a ballet.") By way of corroborative detail I note that the ODNB lists only Dr Ambrosias: his Secret (1868), Marie (1871), and Happy Hampstead (1877) as Carte's operettas. Tim riley (talk) 09:36, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
 * This has crept back and I have removed it again, for the above reasons. - Tim riley (talk) 15:21, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Ainger, p. 92 says that Carte wrote The Doctor in Spite of Himself, but I agree that your research into contemporary accounts trumps this. Thanks! -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:39, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I am distinctly underwhelmed by Ainger. There are too many errors that leap out at one (and for all I know many more that I haven't spotted). I have already pointed out that Ainger is wrong in imagining that Carte wrote an operetta based on Le Medecin Malgre Lui, and in supposing that the Ministry of Works existed in the nineteenth century. I have lately run across a review by David Mackie in Music and Letters, August 2004, pp. 466-469, which lists a deplorable number of errors – though I note that many have been corrected in the 2009 paperback reissue that I have. Even so, one's feeling is Modified Rapture. - Tim riley (talk) 13:34, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Early life
"Soho's Greek Street in the West End of London" strikes me as information overload. I'd prefer "Greek Street in Soho, London" or "Greek Street in the West End of London". --GuillaumeTell 21:48, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Tim, would you please pick one of these and revise? I yield to the gentlemen from across the pond on matters such as this!  :-) -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:52, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. I've gone for the more general term. Greek Street is indeed in Soho, but I think perhaps in the present context the West End is more to the point. Tim riley (talk) 07:41, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Legacy
I've finished looking through the article and making a few amendments here and there. I'm not particularly knowledgeable about Carte, so I was mainly looking for typos, duff punctuation, infelicities, etc. One question relating to the above section: "She continued to produce the touring companies" sounds to me like "she continued to produce rabbits out of hats". "She continued to produce performances by the touring companies" or something similar might be better. --GuillaumeTell 16:54, 22 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Point taken, but I'm afraid that your formulation implies that she produced some, but not all of the performances. In fact, she was the exclusive producer of all professional G&S in Britain and Canada and all other D'Oyly Carte productions, whether in London or on tour.  The touring companies often toured year round, and she also was producer of all of DOC's American and other foreign tours.  We should make it clear that she was the sole producer of everything that they did.  Tim, can you suggest a solution that will preserve as much brevity as possible?  I'm afraid that try to say this more than once. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:03, 22 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Done. Please check you're happy with my redraft. (I chuckled much at GuillaumeTell's vision of the rabbits.) - Tim riley (talk) 19:07, 22 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Perfect. I added the word "London" to clarify that the London company continued to perform after Carte's death.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:43, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

See the new Helen Carte here. -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:01, 23 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Remind me where the rollback button is! Tim riley (talk) 14:47, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Comments by Wehwalt
Here are a few comments aimed at improving the article. I will be doing this in bits.


 * Thanks! Some changes made and responses below.  If Tim has anything to add on any of this, I'd be please to know it.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:16, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Lede:
 * A one sentence lede paragraph seems to me to be a bit small. Even if you are not planning to go for FA, I'd enlarge it a bit.  Just throw in one or two of the best known facts on RDC.


 * Thanks. I expanded first paragraph.  Is it too much repetition, taken together with the other paragraphs in the Lede?  -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:16, 27 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Was the reason RDC built the Savoy to host the G&S operas? Obviously they did, but was that the actual reason for the building?  Or did he have bigger things in mind?  After all, he could not know how long the partnership would last, and given the difficult relationships among the three of them, that's a slender reed to build a theatre on.


 * For several years, Carte had dreamed of building a theatre to present English light opera. By the time he actually started building it, however, it was definitely with the intention of presenting more G&S.  He was young and cocky and never doubted that he could keep the partnership together - indeed, soon after this, he persuaded them to sign a five-year contract.  Gilbert and Sullivan got along pretty swimmingly between 1879 and 1881.  There were no difficulties in the relationship at that time.  It wasn't really until after Princess Ida opened that they had a serious disagreement.  I think all this is pretty well supported by the text and references further down.  Bottom line, I think it is fair to say in the Lede that it was built to host G&S. -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:16, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Early life:
 * Rose. I would suggest putting in a death date of unknown or a question mark there, otherwise the implication is she's still alive and kicking at 156.


 * Are you sure? I think it is standard, when you don't know the death date to do it the way we have it.   If the person is alive, you leave in a dash like this: (1960– ).  Unless the GA reviewer doesn't like it, I'm inclined to keep it as is.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:16, 27 October 2009 (UTC)


 * (D'Oyly is Norman French) Ambiguous, suggest saying that D'Oyly derives from Norman French or is a Norman French name.


 * OK, good. Done.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:16, 27 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Maybe put the sentence about his parents as the second sentence in the paragraph, otherwise it feels like you are telling the story backwards.


 * Done. -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:16, 27 October 2009 (UTC)


 * The sentence about him leaving with his brother Henry is a bit awkward. I'd try moving the clause about Henry to the end.


 * Done. -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:16, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Career:
 * "Carte's musical training ..." I take it we are talking about the experience he gained during this time?  I would just say so.


 * No, sorry, I meant his musicianship, or his musical talent. Change made.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:16, 27 October 2009 (UTC)


 * "At the same time" as we are talking about a nine year period, it is a bit of a problem here. I would suggest something like "During this time," or similar.  And if it is at all possible, perhaps tell a bit more about what he was doing?  Nine years in a man's life is considerable.  Was he working at his father's firm, or accompanying companies on tour (sort of implied).  I know we are all anxious to get to the good stuff, the G&S stuff, but a little more detail might be good.


 * OK, I changed it. We already said about the 1860s, "He studied music during this time and composed some pieces".  Then we discussed his compositions from 1868.  Then we pick up in more detail with 1874.  We say pretty clearly that he was still working at his father's firm until he moved the talent agency to its new quarters.  Sources are not crystal clear on what the date of that was, but it must have been around 1870 or so.  I don't know if we have any other details, except that we know he managed certain artists.  Can you add anything, Tim?  -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:16, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * From the classified ads in The Era: 20 November 1870, p. 7: ad for "Rudall, Rose, Carte and Co Opera, Concert and Choir Agency, under the management of Mr R D'Oyly Carte", states that the Agency was "established by Messrs Rudall, Rose, Carte and Co as a branch of their ordinary business in the Autumn of 1868." The Agency's address is given as 20 Charing-cross, London, SW. In a similar ad on 26 November 1871, the Agency's title is now pruned to "Rudall, Carte and Co's Opera and Concert Agency". R D'Oyly Carte is still manager, and the address is unchanged. An ad in February 1872 shows the same details. By 16 February 1873 (p. 13) the address is unchanged, but the Agency's name does not mention Rudall etc, but is given as "R. D'Oyly Carte's Agency". By 1 November 1874 (p. 16) the agency is "D'Oyly Carte and Co", still at 20 Charing-cross. By 27 December 1874, (p.1) D'Oyly Carte and Co is at "9a Craig's-court, Charing-cross, or 6 Hereford-road, W." Make of that what you will. Tim riley (talk) 09:36, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

More later, or possibly in a couple of days, depending on my crazy schedule.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:44, 27 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Looking forward to it. -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:16, 27 October 2009 (UTC)


 * "She became fascinated by his vision for ..." Perhaps shorten to "Fascinated by his vision ..., she became ...".
 * "Lenoir was well-educated and had a grasp of detail and diplomacy and an organisational ability and business acumen that surpassed even Carte's; she became intensely involved in all of his business affairs" Awful lot of ands in there.
 * Oooh, good one! Fixed.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:38, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * "Carte himself was the musical director ... " Is the word himself really needed?
 * ". They chose talented actors, most of whom were not well-known stars, and Carte's agency provided many of the artists to perform in the new work." Surely this can be shortened, as we know the artists are to perform in the new work?
 * True enough. Done. -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:38, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

More later. I am sorry for the slowness of the review, I'm traveling and it is hard to buckle down to concentrating on a review.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:09, 29 October 2009 (UTC)


 * No worries. Doing it bit by bit makes it easy for me too.  I hope your trip is going well!  -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:38, 29 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Reasonably well, thanks. Going back a bit:


 * "The Sorcerer in 1877, about a tradesmanlike London sorcerer." Perhaps a different word than sorcerer?  And is The Sorcerer really about him?  The Mikado is not about that humane monarch, after all.  I won't bore you with the argument, you know the operas better than I do and can supply my argument for me!


 * Changes made. -- Ssilvers (talk) 06:01, 30 October 2009 (UTC)


 * promenade concert: Suggest link to Promenade concert, which is about the historic musical walkabout, not the Albert Hall events.


 * Done. -- Ssilvers (talk) 06:01, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Early opera successes:


 * "tours of each of the Gilbert and Sullivan operas." Suggest that the word "new" or similar be inserted in there.  Thespis, after all, did not tour.


 * Good idea! Done.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 06:01, 30 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Wilde: Had the misconceptions that Bunthorne is based on Wilde arisen at that time?  If so, and if the three took advantage of it to send out Wilde, might be worth a mention.


 * No, it's a modern misconception. Wilde was an up-and-coming poet, and one can see aspects of him, or his "type", in each of Bunthorne and Grosvenor, or vice versa.  I don't want to promote the misconception by trying to explain it.  It is explained in good detail at the Patience article.  Here, we say that Carte, who was his agent anyway, sent him to America to explain aesthetic art, and that's exactly what happened.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 06:01, 30 October 2009 (UTC)


 * "front-of-house". Unless there is a particular British usage in phrasing it with hyphens, suggest front of house.


 * Ah! I wasn't aware of the article.  Thanks!  -- Ssilvers (talk) 06:01, 30 October 2009 (UTC)


 * "queue system". Not sure what this means.  (I know what a queue is, I just mean the phrase).


 * People used to wait at the entrance to the theatre and rush in to get first-come, first-served seats. Carte started numbering the tickets so that there would be an orderly line for seating.  I fixed some redundancy there. -- Ssilvers (talk) 06:01, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a rock concert with general admission!--Wehwalt (talk) 03:05, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure I quite concur with the above: I don't think the cheap seats were numbered. I think they continued to be unreserved, and it was still first-in-best-placed (as e.g. it still is at the Proms for Promenaders) but Carte, with the help of the police, stopped the traditional scrummage and enforced orderly queueing, so that early arrival rather than musclepower secured the best seats. Tim riley (talk) 09:46, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Later: on re-examining the article, I think it's correct and I misinterpreted it. Pray disregard the above. - Tim riley (talk) 18:01, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

More later.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:27, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay, in my limited time on WP, I was distracted by other things.


 * "As an example of their level of activity ..." The "example" refers to "many other projects".  I suggest combining the sentences so the example becomes the laundry list of activities Carte was engaged in.


 * It used to be one sentence, but Maria suggested splitting it up; I think she's right.


 * "increasing their popularity". Certainly, from context, "they" refers to the works, not to the societies.  All the same, I'd make this clear so as not to slow down the reader.


 * OK, done.


 * "Carte was able to coax eight comic operas" You might also want to specify how many of these took place under the five year contract.


 * I don't think the contract ought to get any more air time. Carte and Helen had to pet Sullivan constantly to keep him on board.


 * "He was a full participant in the producing partnership with Gilbert and Sullivan. " You might want to tell the reader just what he did in production.  Lytton's comment really doesn't answer it.


 * Tim, do we have more information about his exact day-to-day producing duties? I know he was involved in casting.  I can guess at other duties, but I don't think I've ever seen any specifics.
 * As well as his responsibilities as producer (in the modern sense) - publicity, employing the performers and theatre staff, Carte was responsible for stage rehearsals of all the touring companies (see Joseph, p. 90) not to mention for casting them. And though in London, Gilbert was stage director of the G&S operas, and Carte closely followed Gilbert's stagings in his touring productions, staging the non-Gilbert works was entirely down to Carte: he usually got his assistants Charles Harris or Richard Barker to act as director (see Rollins and Witts pp. 15-18) but it was down to Carte to hire designers for the scenery and costumes. Even in the G&S operas, where Gilbert designed some costumes and instructed the designer about others, it was Carte who hired Faustin, Percy Anderson, Henry Emden, Wilhelm et al. - Tim riley (talk) 10:15, 7 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Queen: Might be helpful to the reader if you mentioned (in most versions of this story that I've read) that the Queen was following the libretto closely.  Doubt she had the opera committed to memory!  Although, you never know, I've read she was a tremendous music fan as a girl, with a keen interest in the stars of the day.


 * Done.


 * "amount of the charge was not great" Five hundred pounds in 1893 is equivalent to at least forty thousand pounds today.  I generally use http://www.measuringworth.com


 * The cost of producing a new West End show is tens of millions today. The amount of the carpet was, as I say, "not great" in relation to the total cost of The Gondoliers or its incredible profits.  The main thing was that Gilbert was convinced that Carte was skimming profits, and it didn't matter to him that The Gondoliers was a gold mine.


 * "Gilbert won the dispute, but the partnership disbanded." Unclear why a "but" is used.  Winning a lawsuit against your partners is not conducive to keeping them as partners.  Neither is losing one, I guess either.


 * OK, I tried to clarify.


 * "his touring companies continued to play throughout Britain and in America. In 1894, for example, Carte had four companies touring Britain and one playing in America." The reader is going to wonder if they played G&S or not.


 * I think some were G&S, and some were not. The mix depended on what had been playing at the Savoy.  In 1894, right after Utopia, most of the tours would have been of Utopia and companion pieces, the rest would have been mixed rep, including some G&S and some of the Savoy Operas of the 1890s.  Tim has R&W which would say exactly.  Am I right, Tim?  If so, it seems like too much information.  After 1903, the non-G&S tapered off, until the rep was just G&S and maybe some companion pieces.
 * According to Rollins and Witts, pp. 23–116, [in addition to many tours of the G&S works --Ssilvers], Carte's companies toured the UK with the following non–G&S works: Rip Van Winkle (1882), Claude Duval (1882), The Nautch Girl  (1891–92), The Vicar of Bray (1892–96 and 1899), Haddon Hall  (1892–94 and 1899), Billee Taylor  (1893), The Chieftain  (1895), Mirette  (1894–95), His Majesty  (1897), The Grand Duchess of Gerolstein  (1898–99), The Lucky Star  (1899), The Rose of Persia  (1900–01), and after Carte's death The Emerald Isle  (1901–02). Rollins and Witts don't give full details of Carte's overseas tours, and I cannot therefore say which of the above were toured in the US and the Empire. This might make a footnote, but needn't, me judice, be added to the main text.  By the way, I have just noticed that from the breach with the Comedy Opera Company to 1888 the companies are billed in Rollins and Witts as "Mr. D'Oyly Carte's Opera Company"; from 1889 they are billed as the "D'Oyly Carte Opera Company". - Tim riley (talk) 08:26, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Further to my comments, above, in response to Wehwalt and Ssilvers, I note from Rollins and Witts the following bits of info about Carte's touring companies.
 * In 1884 he had seven companies touring the UK (with, variously: Pinafore and Pirates (1 company); Patience (2 companies); Iolanthe (2); and Ida (2)). (R&W, p. 24)
 * R&W also mention tours to the US (1882, 1885, 6, and 7, 1890), Germany (1886 and twice in 1887, with dates in Austria and Holland also), and South Africa, 1896-7.
 * Six companies (by which I assume R&W mean Carte's companies, not pirate ones) were presenting The Mikado in Canada and the USA during 1886. (R&W p. 59).
 * In 1887 the "E" company played three nights in Calais and a week in Boulogne. (R&W p. 65). - Tim riley (talk) 08:51, 7 November 2009 (UTC)


 * "Gilbert's aggressive" POV?


 * Not POV; just descriptive. He was a terrier with a rat when he thought he was right.  Unless you think it should be expressed in some other way?  -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:33, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

That's really all I have. Well done!--Wehwalt (talk) 03:05, 3 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Of course, the above responses are just my opinion.  If Tim disagrees, or if you disagree strongly, we can make more changes.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:33, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Carte's father, Richard
Great new image, Tim! -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:21, 28 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Carte senior looks so very English compared with his son's Napoleonic looks. D'Oyly must have got them from his mother's side. Tim riley (talk) 18:04, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, particularly the moustache! -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:40, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Note 84
Why aren't Dark and Grey included in the reference section?
 * Ooh! Good catch!  Done now.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 01:52, 11 January 2011 (UTC)