Talk:Richard D'Oyly Carte/Archive 3

Name
It is unclear from the text whether the name D'Oyly was used by him as a middle name or part of a compound surname. His father's name seems to be Mr. Carte, and D'Oyly was his son's middle name. But Richard's daughter's name looks as if he treated D'Oyly as part of his family name - as do the names of his companies. It could even be that he preferred D'Oyly as a better first name that Richard. Myrvin (talk) 17:59, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I found this in the DNB: Carte, Richard D'Oyly (1844–1901), theatre impresario, was born on 3 May 1844 in Greek Street, Soho, London, the son of Richard Carte (d. 1891) (originally Cart; he frenchified the surname) and his wife, Eliza, née Jones. The name D'Oyly, arising from his mother's side, was a forename (not part of a double surname), by which he was addressed.

. I'll add something. Myrvin (talk) 18:05, 18 May 2014 (UTC)


 * These things are slippery. Setting aside the lunatic prescriptiveness of the ODNB, which ignores all except the last word of compound surnames ("Home, Alec Douglas-"), when does a given name dished out to all family members become a surname? See, e.g. Andrew Bonar Law and his descendants. He was plain "Mr Law", but several generations on, with all the descendants named Xyz Bonar Law, that has in practice morphed into a double-barrelled surname. Likewise with D'Oyly Carte, but there is no doubt whatever that Rupert D'Oyly Carte (son of Richard) thought of himself as "Mr Carte". Richard's granddaughter, Bridget clearly thought the same. She married and divorced, and on divorce changed her name back by deed poll, with the surname Carte and the given names Bridget D'Oyly (dropping her middle given name Cicely, which she disliked), but she reverted from being Countess of Cranbrook to Miss Carte, not Miss D'Oyly Carte. The import of this long spiel (sorry!) is that Richard was certainly Mr Carte. Ought we to make this plainer in the text, do you think? –  Tim riley  talk    18:21, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't see how you can say that the DNB IGNORES a part of the name, when it is there. Douglas is there as well as Home. I suppose, to be consistent, the DNB decided to key their entries by the final part of the name. It makes sense to me. Myrvin (talk) 21:29, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
 * David Lloyd George is another interesting case. Myrvin (talk) 21:35, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

See my edit. Myrvin (talk) 21:21, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, everyone agrees that the surname is "Carte". But, Myrvin, we already cited the DNB in the article, and there is no need to repeat that info in the footnote, as it is crystal clear, and there is no disagreement about it. I've streamlined the text and footnote accordingly. -- Ssilvers (talk) 02:56, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Being new to the article, I missed the DNB ref. I read it first because I was confused about the surname, and I didn't find it crystal clear at all. It is better now - and thanks for your changes. I do miss the reference to his fathers's "Frenchified" name though. Myrvin (talk) 06:48, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

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Lucas D'Oyly Carte
The image in the foursome, previously labelled here as Lucas is in fact Richard D'Oyly Carte. It appears in The Sketch, 1st May 1901, page 73. Labelled "The Late Mr D'Oyly Carte at the age of 18". This can be found on the British Newspaper Archive (subscription necessary). Lucas did not die till 1907 so he was still alive when the photo was published. Bkesselman (talk) 03:44, 22 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks to Tim Riley for correcting the image. Bkesselman (talk) 10:29, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Alias?
These sources ( and  - indicate that his birth name was Richard Doyle McCarthy, which somewhat contradicts some of the statements in the article. How should this information be integrated? DS (talk) 22:44, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
 * It shouldn't, because it is not true. These sources (no doubt one copied from another, which is how myths like this get spread) are wrong. Carte's grandfather was Cart, his father spelled the name Carte and our man was born with that surname. The registration of birth (1844) is available online via Ancestry.co.uk (subscription needed to view), and his name there is Richard D'Oyly Carte. The myth that he was "Doyle McCarthy" seems to have begun during his lifetime, but it is demonstrably untrue.  Tim riley  talk   12:00, 22 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Just to amplify Tim's response, there are thousands of better sources that have Carte's name correct, including Seeley's in-depth biography of him, the numerous in-depth biographies of Gilbert and Sullivan, Carte's official birth records, the 1851 Census, the 1861 Census, his university records, every in-depth book and article about the D'Oyly Carte Opera Company (see Joseph), and every item from his artist agency from its earliest days. This repeated typo is entirely nonsense. -- Ssilvers (talk) 12:26, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't think it was as innocent as a typo. From the 1880s press cuttings is it evident that the originator of the rumour wanted to smear Carte as pretentiously poshing his name up. I have attached a scan of the 1844 official Register of Births, showing that Richard D'Oyly Carte was indeed his real name.  Tim riley  talk   13:43, 11 April 2022 (UTC)