Talk:Richard Kuklinski/Archive 1

Huh?
(It should be noted that in 2006 Gravano was serving a 19 year prison sentence for running an Embassy Suites in Arizona)

What?
 * Yes, this needs explanation. As far as I know, running an upscale chain hotel is not not illegal. 75.76.213.106 (talk) 23:35, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Family?
Why isnt there any details about his family(Wife, children)? 151.197.14.192 (talk) 07:31, 26 June 2008 (UTC)Annisina

Mister Softee
The part where it makes note about Richard Kuklinski using the Mister Softee van for some of his murders, my understanding from reading the book 'Ice Man' (Author Philip Carlo, Publishers St. Martin's Griffin (September 18, 2007 Paperback Reprint), St. Martin's Press (July 1, 2006 Hardcover), was that Mister Softee was only used by Robert Pronge.

They may have tagged along with one another on killing sprees, but I'm pretty sure (going off memory) that Richard did not confess to using Mister Softee for his own killings.

Perhaps there may be an misunderstanding on Kuklinski's encounter of the Mister Softee era? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nez trikki (talk • contribs) 03:05, 21 May 2008 (UTC) Mr. Softee was Robert Prongay not Pronge and when exactly did Prongay ask Kuklinski to kill Ellen and either of his 2 children? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.226.93.32 (talk) 17:25, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Cite tags
I added a fact tag to the part about him using strips of rawhide. He did admit to tying them up, but he never mentions rawhide. SteveB67 (talk) 02:47, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

and who ever put that he--WerLdWyde (talk) 20:49, 30 April 2009 (UTC) had his first murder at thirteen is dumb. he did his first murder in a bar by hitting the guy with a que stick a few too many times as he said it.

mafia or police nick name
By all other mafiosa he was known as 'the polack'. It was only the investigating police that dubbed him the Ice Man. Surely therefore his actual nickname should be put in place of the latter. Just a suggestion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.136.200.243 (talk) 19:14, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Both names should be used, because both were given to him. That's like saying john gotti shouldn't be called the Dapper Don, or the Teflon Don, instead of Johnny Boy, or Gotti, or whatever. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.201.193.254 (talk) 17:18, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Name
The claim about Steve Austin being inspired by Kuklinski is blatantly false. Austin has said in several interviews that the name came from his wife, a British native, who was familiar with the phrase "stone cold" as opposed to the American "ice cold," and used it in reference to Austin not drinking his tea until several minutes after it had come out of the kettle, hence, letting it get "stone cold."70.241.29.250 00:48, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

He was not well-liked and he routinely physically and verbally abused his family, often threatening their lives. I'm watching a live interview with his family on CNN right now and they are discussing the fact. --72.66.4.90 01:40, 27 June 2006 (UTC) Brett George

This is true. I saw an interview with Austin and his wife where they discussed the origin of his "stage" name.

Removed the item from article.

Also, stone cold is a part of the American idiom, e.g. "stone cold" killer or "stone cold" dead. Americans never make statements like, "stone cold beer."

And we never call a tea pot anything but...a tea pot.

watch "the stone cold truth" dvd about steve austin you`d hear it from the man himself saya that he formed his wrestling persona after kuklinsky. as far as the name goes i think thats from that cheesy motorbike/ gangsta movie "stone cold" from the early 90`s. and thats the bottom line cause stone cold said so! T

The character basis for "Stone Cold" Steve Austin came from this man. The name "Stone Cold" came from his ex-wife. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.173.112.72 (talk) 21:46, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Re-write?
Incoherent and awkward writing style. can someone re-write?

I thought it was fine67.42.181.87 (talk) 02:25, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

No, it really is a shitty write up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.196.174.201 (talk) 07:05, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree that this article is terrible. it follows no pattern, and does not stress any of the facts e.g. could be split inot confirmed killings, then the ones he claimed he was part of. it needs to be stressed more that there is little evidence behind many of his claims - the article is misleading and poorly written. needs to be structured and references more linked to text. anyone willing to take up challenge? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.139.181.249 (talk) 19:03, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

I was about to propose deleting the article but maybe we can avoid that, but we do need to find some reliable sources.Thesniperremix (talk) 00:21, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Filmed?
This is not a criticism of this article, but a discussion on the topic of filming a victim.

He stated in an interview that he left a Super 8 camera running and thereby filmed a man's being devoured by rats in a cave.

A common Super 8 film reel is only about 3 minutes long. Even the largest film magazine he would have had would not have been longer than ten minutes.

So he would not have filmed much without being present to change reels the entire time.

Add to this that even the fastest exposure film would not produce an image in such low-light conditions, unless we are to believe that he used lighting.

And where would he have had such a film processed?

So this most sensational claim is dubious.

--APDEF (talk) 16:14, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree. This claim, as with most of his other claims such as involvement in the Carmine Galante and Jimmy Hoffa hits, is nonsense. There is a 2005 Bollywood film that i have seen which has the same scene in it. In the end of the movie, the heroine ties her backstabbing boyfriend with a rope and leaves him to be devoured by rats in a cave. I am not trying to say for a fact that Kuklinski copied the scene from a Bollywood movie. It could have been the other way around. However, the similarities are ironical. Joyson Noel (talk) 16:31, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

===It should be noted that, "The Big Guy," as Roy DeMeo often referred to Richard as, worked as a film tech a a young man. Perhaps that is how he had knowledge of film development.

--If you were to read his biography, he was using the cameras also used to record pornography and a motion detector.The rat-based murders were done on the latter years of his life, even if they are recounted a lot due to its gruesome circunstances. Whatever grain of salt he might have added, doesnt change the fact that this was extensively documented on the biography and asking where he would have had films processed when he worked processing movies show a total lack of research by the person asking. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.244.42.23 (talk) 17:47, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

General Conversation About Kuklinski No one will ever be able to figure out exactly which murders he had done or if he was involved in the Paul Casteleno hit, etc. But it is obvious that Kuklinski was an above average hitman, because seeing that he could afford an upper middle class lifestyle during the time and knowing that his main business was murder, he must have been well known amongst the various crime families, and making a substantial amount of money. Saying that he was even a back-up shooter is a vary likely story, if not one of the main shooters in the hit, as even high ranking associate Joe Watts was accused of being a back-up shooter during that notorious murder. Bottom line is he probably was involved in a lot of murders that by others looked substantial, but to him didn't mean much as not being able to be a made member and have allegience to one of the LCN familes. However it is a possibility that later on, once seeing that telling extended tales of the truth might be entertaining to himself, he gave a little something more to the audience. Then again with every lie there is a grain of truth, so most of what he says is probably true. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.206.148.46 (talk) 15:54, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

False Implication
"Despite being a devout Roman Catholic, Anna Kuklinski was also abusive to her children, sometimes beating them with broom handles." I think this sentence could be changed. Specifically, it could do without the word "despite". In fact, the two pieces of information (the religion and the abuse) should be separated, since they aren't connected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.183.23.68 (talk) 10:19, 18 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for pointing that out, I've fixed it. --CliffC (talk) 14:24, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Cave full of rats?
As an old country boy who grew up in the same eastern woods that Kuklinski refers to, I am dubious about a cave full of rats. Ordinary rats, such as the Norway, live symbiotically with people, living off scraps and garbage produced by humans. So where are the people to supply the rats, if the rats are ganged up together in a cave in the middle of nowhere?

I might add that in all my years in the woods, I never saw a common rat in the wild. When I read Kuklinski's book, I immediately dismissed it as bull byproduct. I think Kuklinski is the underworld equivalent of the "stolen valor" wannabes who claim to have won the Medal of Honor while serving in some military unit so super-secret it never existed.

Georgejdorner (talk) 15:18, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Cause of death
The article never actually describes the subject's death, though I gather he was poisoned. Could someone who knows more please clarify the "Incarceration and Death" section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oconnor663 (talk • contribs) 04:09, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

School murder
It states in the article that his first murder was committed while he was in high school...Kuklinski is purported to have murdered a fellow student. It appears that he wasn't arrested for his deed? How did he slip through the cracks? 21:02, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Image
The mug shot in this article appears to be taken from a television frame-capture of a video recording of the actual photo. Surely, Wiki can do better than this. Can anyone procure a scan of the original mug shot? Alvis 06:25, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

According to the photo caption this image was taken in 1978. However, the date in the image itself is 1982. Thoodo81 (talk) 16:30, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Height
Where has this been taken from? Looking at footage of him (where he has aged, admittedly) he appears to be shorter than 196 cm. 79.136.61.156 (talk) 19:03, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Cyanide
Can someone point me to a murder that he committed by spilling or spraying cyanide on the victim? Where does this fact originate from - was it proven in court that he killed someone in this manner or was it boasting on Kuklinski's part? --210.18.236.150 (talk) 06:30, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Some of it is boasting. But I remember that one of the murders that he was directly linked to involved cyanide. He murdered an associate who could potentially testify against him. However for whatever reason he also strangled him. If he hadn't done that, the death probably would not have been ruled suspicious. --Harizotoh9 (talk) 10:08, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Remove Philip Carlo quotes
These lower the quality of the article. If so little about this man is known, but what's been sensationalized by the media, then the article should stick to the facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peterius (talk • contribs) 10:04, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Richard Kuklinski
can anyone tell me if Kuklinski was left or right handed? I notice in the interviews that th very rarely looks to the left, and almos never up and to the left, thease are signs [looking left] of recalling memories, whereas to the right and down [where he prodomiently looks is a sign of 'projection' this would not be true if he were left handed as thinking in the hemispheres of the brain is reversed. SO, if anyone knows if he was left handed, ...let me know. ...[redacted]...thanks.89.242.177.8 (talk) 10:19, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Yea, watching this I wondered the same thing and had to try and find out. I'd guess right handed cause he just looks like a pathological liar. The psychiatrist is probably aware of these techniques and was playing him like a fiddle. Haven't found any sources though. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.25.152.6 (talk) 04:55, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Roy Demeo and Richard Kuklinski
I am an aficionado of the Mafia. I read both Murder Machine about Roy Demeo, and Roy's son's book about him. I also saw a biography of Roy on the biochannel. In none of those places was Richard Kuklinski mentioned. In Murder Machine, about 10 members of his crew were mentioned, none of them Richard Kuklinski. I am curious as to what is known about his ties to organized crime as a fact, and what are just conjectures.

If you are looking for a stone cold killer, Roy Demeo, and Tommy Pitara are the real things, not Richard Kuklinksi. (Richard may or may not be the real thing)

Mark47 (talk) 12:25, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

There has never been a member of the Demeo crew or Gambino family who acknowledged hiring Kukinski for any Mafia hit. None. Nada. Even cooperating witnesses like Domnick Montiglio and Sammy Gravano who were both defriefed by the FBI never mentioned this guy.

This clown wanted to make himself sound important. He lost all credability when he suggested he killed Jimmy Hoffa and Paul Castellano. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.126.132.198 (talk) 01:40, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

I have after a fair bit of onlline research come across a website entitled SWALLOWING THE CAMEL this in my opinion is the best piece that i have come across that Completely squashes this story 99%.Richard Kuklinski WAS a fraud,HE WAS A BRUTAL KILLER but nothing like Philip Carlo's book he killed probable more than 5 but perhaps no more than ten,and most of these were HIS associates and it is likley that his killing began in the 1980's as opposed to the 1950's or even 1970's,his links to the mafia were thin,he was NOT a contract killer for them,Carlo's book is at best 80% lies and perhaps as much as 90%....Carlo wrote some excellent book's but unfortunatly he accepted the word of a liar and this is to his detrement,because perhaps had he not passed away so early in his life he MAY HAVE returned to his book on Kuklinski and admitted it was poorly sourced and essentially a work of almost total fiction...of course we'll never know now...the bottom line is this Kuklinski was/is up there with the most notorious hoaxers there has been in criminal history.Bullseye30 16/10/2013. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bullseye30 (talk • contribs) 09:31, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

"4 × 2 foot cube"
Say what? Too Old (talk) 17:44, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Reliability
The introduction notes that he is only known to have killed a handful of men. His claims to have killed hundreds are contested. Yet the article is full of accounts of his alleged murders. It should be noted that this is all based on his unsubstantiated claims.101.98.175.68 (talk) 03:58, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Kuklinski was not a bad story teller and so, Philip Carlo picked up on this so-called talent (a lot of jailbirds have it), and wrote a best-selling book about him. Our article is mostly about that one book by Philip Carlo. Many sources are rehashing Carlo's story. Therefore, we are not that different from them. Poeticbent talk 18:30, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

Really strange not to consider one of the obvious hypothesis, that he could be a killer AND a big lier. After all he is a psychopath. If you look at the documentaries, you could se that he often blinks and looks away when asked to be specific. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.208.9.84 (talk) 19:40, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Corroboration
For the sake of the Wikipedia we MUST seperate the fact and fiction of this mans life,to many things are are unverified and it is vital to know which is which,for instance i have read that the supposed lead investigator in bringing him to justice says that the Philip Carlo book is a very accurate portryal of Kuklinski,he says that kuklinski was everything that he says he was i read this on an AMAZON review of the book THE ICE MAN by P.Carlo...even so i'am reminded of a phrase about other supposed true crime criminals where an author says "i suspect that fifty percent of what he has said is bullshit the problem is which fifty percent?"it cannot be hard to pick half a dozen of his supposed murders a find out wheather they actually happened.Bullseye30 15/10/2013

Corroboration continued-- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bullseye30 (talk • contribs) 10:17, 15 October 2013 (UTC) Has anything that might make this person worthy of a Wikipedia article been corroborated outside of the HBO interviews? It seems likely to me that he is low-rent psychopath who conned HBO into thinking he was something greater than he was.

Is there a record of a mysterious crossbow murder in the 20th century?

Is there a record of poisoning deaths?

What was he sentenced for? 30 murders? 200 murders? 12 million murders? Or a couple murders and a conspiracy charge?

He is a proven liar, no? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.1.40.132 (talk) 06:14, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * You got it exactly right. This guy was a junkie and a loser who killed a couple of people.  His story is complete bullshit. 72.209.63.226 (talk) 20:39, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Just watched "The Iceman Tapes" (the 1991 and 2001 interviews with Kuklinski), and I was thinking the same thing. Many of his claims / stories seems far fetched, and they way he's telling his stories seems like he's improvising on the spot -- lots of unnecessary embellishment and lots of obvious bragging. Mortene (talk) 22:51, 16 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I am flabbergasted that somebody would ask if this person should have an entry on Wikipedia. Do you even know the genre???  My guess is, "No".  True, this guy may have been a prolific liar, and made up many of his "murders", but the truth is, the cops found the evidence to convict him, and he WAS proven to have "iced" his victims (to prevent law enforcement from determining the time of death).  Hey, maybe you should propose the deletion of John Gotti Jr because you think he is not notable???  Get out of here.  It is people like you that are ruining Wikipedia.  It happens so often now - time after time again, I go to research a mafia person, and it says that the "page has been deleted" - usually due to somebody who doesn't know anything about the mafia claiming that the person is "not notable".  Go figure.  This place is now garbage.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.148.131.250 (talk) 09:29, 4 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Oh, and, by the way, I am very well aware that much of what Kuklinski says is obvious bragging about stuff that he didn't do - he wanted to become a celebrity (in his own twisted mind) - but is that justification for deleting this entry??? He WAS convicted of horrendous crimes.  And he DID put several of his victims "on ice" - to throw off the authorities as to the time of death.  But according to you busybodies, if the criminal later lies about his crimes, and exaggerates them, then he should be given a pass and no Wikipedia page exist on the guy.  I have concluded that you are a bunch of teenyboppers that get off on deleting pages.  Go get on your magic broom and fly off and bother other people.  I mean, heck, why not go to the numerous physics pages of Wikipedia and start deleting them because you don't think the entry is important.  Twits.  Teenyboppers.

You can separate the verifiable from the non verifiable. But you cannot separate what is fact from what is fiction. Not everything that is a fact can be verified. And not everything that has a source, no mater how reputable, is true. Rxantos (talk) 09:50, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Section on his death
Why was all the info about his family suspecting Kuklinski was poisoned in prison and Michael Baden performing an autopsy removed from this article? I see no reasons in the history why this was done, and no reason why it should be.

If I don't a quick response on this, I will be adding all of this information back into the article.

108.49.94.203 (talk) 03:41, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

ERROR REGARDING ROY DEMEO'S POSITION (Both on documentary and on this site)
It is well known that Roy Demeo was not a full fledged "caporegime" or "captain" in the Gambino crime family. Roy Demeo had his own "crew" for a long time yes that is true, but it took him many years to become a made member in the Gambinos. The Boss was very slow to let him in the family. See "Roy Demeo" and it says he is a "soldier." The RK documentary gives him the high ranking title of captain which is false. Roy barely became a made member, he made a lot of money, but with the way the Gambino boss was trying to move things, I think he wanted every excuse to not "make" Roy a friend, and thus soldier. Maybe I am wrong, but I don't think Roy was ever a captain, only a "soldier" or made honored member who happened to have his own crew. Being a Captain in the family would have placed him in a much higher income bracket most likely despite the fact that he lived on Long Island. However Roy was a notorious member, and made a ton of money. He had the "Roy Demeo Crew" for sure, but I don't think he was a Captain. John Gotti had his own "crew" before he was made I believe. That is a similar situation.

Section on his death
Ok, I asked why the entire section on his family's suspicion of him being poisoned in prison and the subsequent testing by Michael Baden was deleted without reason.

I got no response, so now I've put it back in. And I will revert EVERY attempt at removing it again until I get a legitimate reason for its removal. Understood?
 * First of all, it was removed because it is unsourced, in violation of Wikipedia policy. Secondly, you "asked", meaning you did so previously? No, the above edit is your first to Wikipedia. Thirdly, watch your tone and drop the threatening attitude. And finally, if you continue to restore the information without a reliable source, you will be blocked from editing. Understood? Sundayclose (talk) 14:31, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Kuklinski is widely believed to have suffered from verbal diarrhea, https://swallowingthecamel.me/2013/07/17/the-iceman-lieth/, the above rule states that "This is not a forum" but it seems that all that is written in this article is "gods honest truth" and therefore beyond questioning, so its "hardly a factual" article either, fact is his biographer had a book to flog/sell and "believed" the shpeel coming out of this clearly dishonest mans mouth.Bullseye30 (talk) 18:44, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

His family doesn't think he was poisoned, but the actual fact is that he told his family that he thought they were poisoning him in prison. The context is unclear, as we don't know if he literally meant that they were trying to kill him or that he just disliked the taste of the food. The time of death had always been a reason for suspicion as he was about to testify against Sammy Gravano, the case was dropped shortly after Richards dead as there was no case without his testimony. And of course the fact that there is no official cause of death feeds the rumors about him being killed instead of a natural cause dead. ChrisRoad (talk) 30 August 2015 —Preceding undated comment added 19:40, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Wouldnt it make him Polish-American even though he was born in USA, his parents were from Poland?Snowonweb (talk) 02:37, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

I was friends with richard and i can tell you first hand we never knew nor would you.. he was the nicest guy you would ever meet even played with my youngest more then once if you werent in the mob you were safe that simple he was framed for things he may have done but to seriously bad people weather he killed 5 people or not they were 5 real bad mobsters so it dosent matter seems the fbi was more into protecting the mobsters then going after them at that time so pin it all on the iceman and whats funny the name did nor does not fit at all there was nothing icy about it he was a warm loving guy outside his work and does it really matter he killed other murderers no ...... (talk) 06:35 May 09 2017

Pronge link
The Robert Pronge link in the article body redirects to same section of the article. Is there a reason for this, or is it an error? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.36.254.142 (talk) 22:04, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

Re-write desperately needed
This is not remotely encyclopaedic. It's written like a fanzine. Its main source is a book Kuklinski contributed to - the article is essentially sourced to the subject.

The man was a notorious and overt fantasist. He wasn't involved in the Hoffa murder. He didn't kill Paul Castellano. He wasn't a mafia hitman or an international criminal, and he didn't hang around with an ice cream van driving serial killer.

What's encyclopaedic is he was a smalltime crook involved in a burglary ring and some bootleg video tapes who, in an incompetent fashion, knocked off some members of his gang. That's it. Unless someone can prove any of the rest it's just fantasy and has no place here other than in a section detailing his long list of crazy lies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.75.108.166 (talk) 13:23, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

jail, prison, and law library job
I question this in the article: "Kuklinski was kept in Bergen County Jail in NJ in solitary confinement." I wonder whether someone already sentenced would be in a jail, rather than a prison. Whatever facility he was in for the final time, according to Carlo's book Kuklinski had a job in the facility's law library and I wonder if someone in solitary confinement would have a job. Nick Levinson (talk) 00:55, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Was he a serial killer or not?
This article states in the opening paragraph, "He is not considered a serial killer." Three short paragraphs later, it says, "Law enforcement are confident... that he was a serial killer." So which is it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lcduke (talk • contribs) 21:44, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Serial Killer
As cited, Kuklinski meets the FBI's definition of a serial killer. End of. There is no denying that, unless one wishes to redefine the term entirely. Further, the page is already in multiple serial killer-related categories. Unless you have issue with that, I advise dropping the subject. 47.55.89.182 (talk) 22:33, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Its been widely debated by his biographers whether or not he fits it, and most have their doubts. Serial killing has always been associated with perverse reasoning (Killing because of sexual attraction, for instance). Even if being a hitman qualifies for serial killing (which it does not) it is still redundant. It would be the equivalent of saying "John is a robber and a criminal". Also, you do not own this article, as your editing and tone reeks of WP:OWNERSHIP, and if there is an issue with it, someone will fix it as they see fit.SuperWikiLover223 (talk) 22:50, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

47.55.89.182, you have misapplied the source that you attempted to use. On page 8 of the report that you cited, it clearly states Further, you are not allowed to use synthesis of materials to make such an inference that a hitman is a serial killer. If that source does not state explicitly that Kuklinski was a serial killer then it is not usable here. — Berean Hunter   (talk)  00:43, 8 August 2019 (UTC)