Talk:Richard Ponsonby-Fane

Category
I don't know how to classify the private secretary to colonial governors in the British Empire. Should this article be included in some sort of Empire civil servants or Empire civil service categories?

In my view, Richard Ponsonby-Fane's notability has to do with his work as an historian; but his unprecedented access to Japan's Imperial family is not unimportant. In part, his natural diplomatic skills would have been affected by his experiences in colonial governments -- most particularly as private secretary to the Governor of Hong Kong, which no doubt led to his choice as interpreter for Crown Prince Hirohito who visited the Crown colony en route to Europe in 1921.

In terms of Wikipedia categories, I don't quite know how to handle this? --Tenmei (talk) 19:02, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Montcute House
"Young Richard also spent part of his youth at his uncle's country home, Montacute House in Somerset. " Yes he did, but it was only a couple of miles from his own home, he would go there for an afternoon, he never spent any real time there. Giano (talk) 20:16, 5 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Giano -- The edit which deleted the sentence above was no doubt well-intended and doubtless informed by sources not known to me. The edit summary below is transparent:
 * 20:18, 5 February 2009 User:Giano II (3,584 bytes) removing this phrase, it was his aunt (Constance) who married into the Phelips's of Montacute
 * Moreover, I admit freely that I do know next to nothing about the Phelips of Sommerset.


 * My focus is not so much devoted to developing better understanding of the British aristocracy during the first half of the 20th century, but rather more to do with explaining how and why this unique Japanologist came to contribute to international understanding of Japan, its culture, and its history.


 * I dare to restore this one sentence on the basis of the following sentences, which were initially referenced with an in-line citation (but not linked to convenient on-line text):
 * "In his boyhood he had a very happy time visiting his uncle at Monatcute, whose residence was a castle built in the seventeenth century and one specially protected by the government; and his grandfather at Brympton whose mansion was still older, its chapel having been built in the day of the Anglo-Saxons. It was because he was brought up in such surroundings that he was much interested in and had a good deal of knowledge of architecture."<:ref>Ponsonby-Frane, p. 517.
 * From our perspective in the 21st-century, these matters would seem trivial; but I suspect that this is precisely the sort of thing which would have been noted and valued by the Imperial Household Agency. In other words, it is reasonable to guess that this sort of detail is likely to have been amongst the factors which explain why the Imperial Household Agency permitted Ponsonby-Fane extraordinary access to members of the Imperial family, to obscure historical records, to Shinto shrines, etc.  Do you see my point?


 * Without a proper citation, these views would be naught but speculative musings -- but in the verified context, I would have thought that it becomes an appropriate factor in decisions about what to have included or excluded from this article.


 * Even if this not sufficiently persuasive, it does at least provide a foundation for further discussion? --Tenmei (talk) 02:07, 6 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Giano -- I note that no mention of Montacute House is included in the Britton article in Prof. Nish's book; and perhaps that fact could be interpreted as a kind of validation of your concerns? --Tenmei (talk) 03:04, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't have references I just know these things (I'm afraid) but it must be all checkable. Richards paternal aunt - Constance married the owner of near by Montacute House, which is in no way a castle, but one of England's first purpose built houses. Brympton is indeed older, but has no chapel, it has a parish church standing very close. Montacute is walking distance (almost the next village from Brympton) I expect to impress the Imperial household and gain access his highborn credentials were exagerated. Incidentally, Richard only spent a a couple of weeks a year at Brympton, the house was lived in by his sister Violet and her husband Edward Clive (a descendent of Clive of India). Richard's family were not aristocrats but a members of the gentry. Montacute was not protected by the government and never has been, in fact in the early 20th centurey it was almost demolished, but saved at the last moment by Ernest Cook. I expect, knowing details of his life that I do, that he chose to live out of England for personal/lifestyle reasons than for his health - (he was an anglo-Catholic,never married and described by his own family as an aesthetic.) Please ask if you want to know any more, I'm sure it can be all be referenced if you know where to look. Incidentally his sister was a great eccentric too, and I rather like eccentrics. I agree, these facts are unimportant in relation to Richard's work, but they may as well be correct in the page -a little human interest livens a page up. Giano (talk) 09:03, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Queen's scarf
Ponsonby-Fane's scarf seemed peculiar to me; but it became more understandable when I stumbled across this tidbit:
 * Eight scarves crocheted by Queen Victoria were awarded to soldiers in the Boer war. The Queen's initials, VRI, (Victoria Regina Imperatrix) are embroidered in cotton in the lower left hand corner of the scarf. One of these scarfs was presented to Private Henry Donald Coutts of the 1st New Zealand Mounted Rifles; and in 1913, Coutts presented his scarf to the New Zealand Government. It  was displayed in the General Assembly Library before being presented to the Army Museum.<:ref>National Army Museum, New Zealand. Did you know, "Queen's scarf"

This helps me to appreciate Ponsony-Fane's scarf, but I don't know how to integrate this into the main article text. --Tenmei (talk) 14:39, 30 July 2010 (UTC)