Talk:Richard Proenneke/Archive 1

More about Richard Proenneke?
I would like to know more about Richard Proenneke of Alone in the Wilderness fame; his early years especially. - Dave Mantor, Fairmount, IN

I would like to know the legal side of Mr. Proenneke's life in Alaska. Did he stake a homestead claim? Did he buy the land? Was it simply unowned by anyone? - David Gilbert, Englewood Colorado 1. When he moved to Twin Lakes in 1967, the land he occupied was just unclaimed land. In the Late 1970s and early 1980s the prospect of a National park came on the scene. He was worried that the land in which he lived became a national park that he would be evicted. This never happened and in the end his Homstead has become a protected site in the Lake Clark National Park. 2. Did he buy land?- No he never purchased the land where his cabin is located,but he did spend a whole forty dollars on the construction of it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.197.240.12 (talk) 14:01, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Try asking at the reference desk. -- Scott ei&#960;  08:06, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

The DVD / Documentary
Does anyone have a catalog number or reference for the documentary as shown on PBS? Perhaps in DVD form? --Ds13 00:54, 11 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Here you go: Alone in the Wilderness at IMDB and Alone in the Wilderness at Amazon

Objectivity
This article's tone is a bit too familiar and makes many assumptions.

The above comment is extremely polite: this reads like a cross between a high school essay about this guy and a discovery narrative special. It practically oozes ill-informed love for Mr. Proenneke (who sounds like a pretty cool guy to me). I think someone should take an hour and try and tighten this up. We should probably lose a little information in the first round; there's quite a bit here that to me doesn't belong in the wikipedia: This entry is nearly longer than Pope John Paul I's entry, for instance.


 * Don't be absurd. People have a choice what to read in an article. To delete information is to deprive them of some of that choice. This is not a paper encyclopedia, with expensive paper issues. I dont think there's too much, I would have liked to read more on the guy.


 * The article does seem ill-informed. I work in this area in the summer, and have visited Proenneke's cabin several times.  He does not live in the "high mountains of Alaska."  His cabin is on a lake at less than 2000' above sea level.  The mountains around him are about 5-6,000.'  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tlikakila (talk • contribs) 19:18, 19 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I've put in the { { story } } tag. I mean, come on, if "his gold was his environmental reputation and attractive lifestyle" or "Proenneke was a wonderful journalist" are objective statements, then I'm king of England. This whole page is very unprofessionally written. Take for example: "As is common among Alaskans, Proenneke was always searching for gold". One would think most Alaskans dig for gold on the weekends. Chengiz (talk) 01:09, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Missing information / explanation
I very much enjoyed watching Bob Swerer's "Alone in the Wilderness" DVD which was made using video footage by Richard Proenneke. In the video and on WP it is explained that Mr. Proenneke used a tripod mounted camera and videoed himself, which is true for most of the footage. However, there are a few scenes (notably in the canoe) where the camera is obviously being hand-held by another person. If anyone finds out who this was, it could be interesting. I suspect that on occasion he had his pilot friend or some other visitor man the camera for him--in any case, whoever the other person (the visiting camera-man) was, he had a very steady hand and was good with video cameras. I'm pretty sure that the old real-film camera they used didn't have built in image stabilization and holding a camera that steady while sitting in a boat isn't for everyone. Thanks! - Jesse


 * You are confusing "film" and "video". Mr Proenneke did not use video cameras. Most of the shots were made on Ektachrome (why not Kodachrome? -- the color wouldn't have shifted as much) on a spring-wound Bolex. A 16mm Bolex is not a tiny camera; its mass would have helped image stability. The "Alone" DVDs include video inserts to illustrate his writing. They're jarring, but not a problem if you understand they aren't his work. WilliamSommerwerck (talk) 20:34, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Dick Proenneke received occasional visitors, especially folks coming in on float planes in the summer. Many locals in the nearby town of Port Alsworth remember visiting with him for hikes or blueberry picking. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tlikakila (talk • contribs) 19:20, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

The other Cameraman, in Part 2 at least world haft to be his brother "Jake" (AKA Raymond) who stayed with him for awhile. He is introduced just before the gold panning scene. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.160.134.110 (talk) 06:38, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Reference links to Bear Grylls and Les Stroud, modern day equivalents. Les Stroud uses the same camera technique.

Civil War
Why does it say in bold that his grandfather "did" serve in the Civil War? Who is saying that he didn't? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Omarcheeseboro (talk • contribs) 22:52, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Great question, this whole article is a mess. I'm going to go ahead and remove it. M855GT (talk) 17:19, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Trivia
Maybe I'm just being nitpicky, but I have some qualms about this trivia sentence: "Had his health not failed him, Dick intended to spend the rest of his life in Twin Lakes." I mean, is it just me, or is there something of a contradiction in this phrasing? Your health will necessarily fail you if you intend to die somewhere. I understand what the sentence is trying to convey, but I still think it has a flawed construction. However, I can't say that I honestly can think of a better way of saying it. Thoughts anyone? CharacterZero |  Speak  15:08, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm a technical writer. How about... "Dick intended to spend the rest of his life in Twin Lakes. But his health eventually declined to the point where he no longer felt he could take care of himself." WilliamSommerwerck (talk) 20:37, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Quotations from article body
I've moved these here for later reference if needed (as I don't like cutting big chunks out of articles), but they don't fit with Wikipeida's encyclopedic style guidelines. Chris b shanks (talk) 04:07, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


 * A pilot from Talkeetna, Alaska shares, "Dick Proenneke's book is pretty interesting, I would recommend it—especially if you plan to ever go and see the cabin. Last summer I flew tourists up there making it a stop sometimes many times in a day, and the ones that had read the book or seen the movie got the most out of the experience. I myself did it in reverse order; saw the cabin then the movie...Amazing fella this Dick was. Covered a TON of country on foot, and made a bunch of "personal inventions" that still exist there today. The cabin is located at Hope Creek on Upper Twin of Twin Lakes--probably one of THE most beautiful places in Alaska I've ever seen to begin with. There are two NPS volunteers that stay up there throughout the summer and actually this year (2004) have said they will stay until New Year's. It is only accessible on floats or skis, unless you're into a 60 mile (100 km) hike through the Alaska Range."
 * T.J. Hinkle from Nikiski, Alaska shares, "I knew Dick. He helped my partner and I pack a couple sheep out of the upper end of Twin Lakes before Jimmy Carter locked it up. Couple of interesting facts.... He was not a bunny hugger. He had no problem with hunting as long as it was done properly. He was also a pilot; although on his own admission not a very good one. After his first year in Alaska, he decided he needed to have a plane. He went back to the lower 48 got his license and bought a Piper J-3. He and his brother (Ray) flew it to Alaska. In spring of 1976, somewhere around Sheep Mountain, East of Palmer, the engine quit. The plane wound up in the trees, Dick walked out to the highway. That ended his piloting career. He continued to use Babe Alsworth to do all his hauling into and out of Twin Lakes. More -- this is second hand information so I don't know if it is altogether true. Maybe someone out there does. After Carter made the park, the heroes in the park service were going to take his cabin. Mary Alsworth said, nope. She then used part of her native land allotment to claim land around his cabin so they couldn't take it. Dick was a quiet gentleman and I was privileged to know him."
 * Gary Reeves from Lake Clark National Park, Alaska shares, "I met Dick, but did not know him well. He was a really interesting man. His conversational style was to ask questions. When he wintered in Port Alsworth, little children and dogs would follow him. I would too. The place on Twin Lakes is a park place now. It doesn't look or feel like Dick's anymore. It is what the Park would have wanted it to be. But the place is not like Dick's. The park is using it as a destination. New back country campsite, with wood and a privy. Still a wonderful place to be and a good place to ponder what Dick did."


 * Bob Coviello, an Alaska Airlines pilot based in Anchorage, and then living in Wasilla, offered that he used to go visit Dick when he went caribou hunting West of East Twin Lake where Dick lived. "This was in the 1980s, when Dick no longer lived year around in his cabin. Park Rangers would often stop by during my visits, or would be there when I arrived, because by this time Dick was considered a "National Treasure," and the Rangers felt very fond of him, and wanted to make sure he was OK. Dick had lots of other visitors by this time as well. Jay Hammond, Alaska's first governor, would often show up with one World dignitary or another who had either read or heard about Dick, and wanted to meet the man. Dick did his best to play himself, kind of a man frozen in time by his own accomplishments, but that man really was Dick at the same time. I was always amazed at how simply he lived there, with most all of what was shown in early photographs of his cabin still there, and in daily use by him. He had one old white-gas single burner camping stove he seemed to cook everything on, and if there's anything that stuck in my mind about him it was that. He didn't seem to feel the need to keep up with anyone materially, and just lived his life for himself. He always kept his old tripod out, with a spotting scope mounted on it, and spent a lot of time even then, entranced by the wild things around him, as if he simply could not get enough of it. I've moved on and out of the country since those times, but it would be difficult for me to go back now, and to see the place on which he made such a mark by hardly making a mark at all, no longer there, over run by tourists who didn't know the man, except by the book or the movies. I have to admit that I keep the copy of "One Man's Wilderness" that he autographed for me when I first met him, with a picture I took of him that day, taped inside the front cover, as a treasure, and a remembrance of a gentleman I felt most fortunate to have known." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.248.42.172 (talk) 03:42, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Justification for changes
I feel like I should justify the changes I have made to the article as of the 24th of Sept 2008, as they have been reverted once. This is from the reverter's (osbojos) talk page, but is also appropriate here.

On the Dick Proenneke article:
 * 1) I had changed the link of computer science cache to the biological cache. You reverted?  You say Dick Proenneke is not a squirrel?  I would like you to check where the first link for cache actually goes (a computer science article) - he did not create "a collection of data duplicating original values stored elsewhere or computed earlier, where the original data is expensive to fetch (owing to longer access time) or to compute, compared to the cost of reading the cache. In other words, a cache is a temporary storage area where frequently accessed data can be stored for rapid access." He did, however, much more accurately, create a "store of food made by many species of animals [which includes humans] for future consumption," to protect it from "other species" (eg. bears) that may want to steal it.  And yes - humans are a 'species' that does this - not just 'squirrels.'
 * 2) You made '-50 °F' redundant again: '-50 °F degree'. Note that the small circular symbol '°' means degree.  Thus you are saying 'negative fifty degrees Fahrenheit degree.'  This would be the same thing as writing 'Politician X got 50 % percent of the vote in the election,' i.e. '50 percent percent.'  I am a copy-editor, this is a simple mistake.
 * 3) 'In civilization' is just unnecessary - it is assumed by the context and is somewhat meaningless.
 * 4) The quotes were removed because they disagree with Wikipedia's style guidelines - this is not my judgment, this is how Wikipedia works. Wikiquote is designed for the purpose of extended quotes - you may make an article for them there if you desire.  If what the speakers said could be integrated into the body of the article, they would be appropriate.  In some articles, in some contexts, extended quotation is allowed, but only when it is fundamentally necessary to the context of the article, for example, see the article for the United States Declaration of Independence.
 * 5) You removed the coordinate notation which is Wikipedia standard - it automatically links to the coordinates in the article, and also shows them in the upper right-hand corner of the article. It is unencyclopedic to give instructions to the reader on where to go and what to enter to see the location - hence the Wikipedia standard of coordinate notation.
 * 6) All the edits were summarized under a misleading edit summary which only referred to one of the changes - they must all be mentioned, or done as separate edits.
 * I am going to redo the changes, as per my explanations - If there are any of them you disagree with, please discuss them here or on the talk page, rather than just putting them back. I am only trying to follow Wikipedia's style guidelines to the best of my ability.  Thanks Chris b shanks (talk) 04:42, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Coordinate error
The coordinates need the following fixes: I visited there this month. The coordinate you have is wrong. The coordinate you are giving is closer to Spike's Cabin (Caruthers). The coordinate I have for Dicks is. 24.147.239.167 (talk) 22:04, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Write here

The geographic coordinates (60 38 59 N 153 48 38 W) appear in the article in a paragraph associated with the Park, not with either of the two cabins, and are therefore ambiguous. The closest map I've seen so far, published online, is the National Park Service [Lake Clark Brochure], and that map does not have a scale fine enough to distinguish between the two sets of coordinates given above. A reliable published source that declares the coordinates of the Proenneke cabin would help. BrainMarble (talk) 22:39, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Pronounciation
"Proenneke" ist obviously a name of German origin. The pronounciation in the article is not the one used in German. Why would there be a correct English pronounciation and who decides this? --188.109.88.191 (talk) 20:03, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

raw footage
My understanding is that the raw footage from Proenneke's 30 year sojourn was found rotting in a closet in 2010, which calls into question how much of the documentary is from actual footage, and how much was shot after the fact from his journal descriptions. My understanding is that exposed 8/16mm movie film has a short life unless stored in a temperature and humidity controlled environment. I believe that the article should address this issue. Dougsnowslide (talk) 10:05, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

What is your source for thinking footage was found in 2010? Alone in the Wilderness was made in 2003. Much of it features Proenneke in the frame; there don't seem to be any grounds for questioning that it is authentic original material from circa 1968. (However, the voice-over narration is by Bob Swerer, speaking Proenneke's words.)-96.237.13.111 (talk) 22:34, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Proenneke regularly returned the exposed film for processing, as is shown in part II. (In that climate, the exposed film could probably have sat for months without a major loss of image quality.) What I find odd is that he used Ektachrome, rather than Kodachrome II. Once processed, the latter has a much more stable image. WilliamSommerwerck (talk) 20:44, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

There are numerous impossible camera shots, e.g. Proenneke paddling along in his canoe from a close and moving vantage point. Scenes of Proenneke walking where it's obvious the camera lens is moving to keep him in view. Maybe some of it or even most of it is authentic, I don't know but the failure to disclose portions that seem to be obvious re-enactments calls it all into question in my opinion. Dougsnowslide (talk) 01:18, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Adak naval base at Kodiak
Until June of 1972 there was a Naval Air Station on Kodiak Island. At the same time there was a Naval Air Station on Adak Island. There has never been an Adak Naval Base on Kodiak. I don't know where he was, I assume it was Kodiak, but that nonexistent base needs to be removed.AK Oldman (talk) 10:45, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

I am going to change it to the Naval Air Station on Kodiak. If someone finds out he was actually on Adak please correct it.AK Oldman (talk) 10:47, 29 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Hmm. Obviously it was wrong before but I am a bit concerned that we are now essentially guessing what the right answer is. His biography would be the best place to look to verify either Adak or Kodiak... Beeblebrox (talk) 17:02, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Looks like Kodiak is indeed the correct answer per . Beeblebrox (talk) 17:06, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Descriptive phrases
Recently, one editor added "mountain man" and another editor just added "American hermit" as descriptive phrases for Richard Proenneke. I wonder if other editors agree with either or both of those phrases. I have seen the documentary film that he made about his years living in the wilderness and I don't think he qualifies as being a hermit. I believe he built a house in the wilderness and lived there and documented it with film because he loved the wilderness, not because he wanted to be alone. His love of nature, including animals and birds, is apparent in his film. He spent his later years in California. I think "mountain man" is faintly pejorative and I don't like that one, either. I feel that "naturalist" is the best phrase to describe him. – CorinneSD (talk) 17:05, 7 March 2014 (UTC)


 * i'm not sure that trying to categorize him in the lead is helpful. IMO just describing his accomplishments for their own sake is enough. I liked the improvements you recently edited into the lead by the way.Ward20 (talk) 07:55, 9 March 2014 (UTC)


 * I don't think the phrase "and modern day mountain man" is necessary. I agree with you that it is not helpful to categorize him in the lead. Also, I skimmed the article in the link, Mountain man, and from what I read, the term was used to describe men who lived in the wilderness in the 1800s and made a living from either trapping and selling furs or serving as guides. Of course, Richard Proenneke lived off the land while he was in Alaska, but since he had saved money from earlier work he was not living completely off the land in the same way that 19th century mountain men were. Would you go along with deleting that phrase? Would you also remove "American naturalist", or leave that? (I would leave it in.) I noticed that he is called "an amateur naturalist" in the WP article Twin Lakes. – CorinneSD (talk) 17:36, 9 March 2014 (UTC)


 * I agree that "modern-day mountain man" is not a good phrase for the lead in that he doesn't fit the description described on the Wikipedia article. I'm neutral on "American naturalist" because he did study nature in his Twin Lakes area. "Living simply" in the lead seems too vague to describe his lifestyle. I think more could be added to the lead about how he lived off the land but he did have supplies flown in periodically. Also, after reading other articles about the man it seems that he had a fair number of visitors throughout the summers, and also interfaced with Rangers in the area. I don't think this is conveyed in the article.Ward20 (talk) 07:11, 11 March 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm also neutral on "American naturalist". He was an amateur naturalist (as is said in the article on Twin Lakes). Perhaps that is the best phrase. If you agree, go ahead and delete "modern day mountain man" and change "American naturalist" to either "amateur American naturalist" or "amateur naturalist". He wasn't a professional naturalist. That's great that you have access to some articles about him. Perhaps you could add some information to the article and include the references. CorinneSD (talk) 15:14, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I've removed the "modern day mountain man" phrase as I agree it is a bit silly as well as inaccurate. Don't have a strong opinion on the other issue. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:38, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

amateur naturalist
An edit removed the word amateur which I believe is a better description of his activities at the lake. Is there consensus on this? Ward20 (talk) 06:55, 5 April 2014 (UTC)


 * I think "amateur naturalist" is better than "naturalist". I think the difference is that a naturalist often has an academic background in biology, zoology, botany, and/or ecology, and a naturalist devotes most of his or her life to the study and/or protection of nature (or some aspect of the natural world). A naturalist also often writes books and articles on a specific topic. Richard Proenneke was interested in nature, and documented his time in a wilderness through journals and film, but he did that after many years working in other fields. I think the phrase "amateur naturalist" describes Proenneke more accurately than "naturalist". The phrase "amateur naturalist" should not be understood as derogatory in any sense. It is just distinguishing between "amateur naturalist" and "[professional] naturalist". CorinneSD (talk) 14:41, 5 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Richard Proenneke did not make his living as a naturalist. Here is the definition of "professional" from Wiktionary: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/professional CorinneSD (talk) 15:53, 22 August 2014 (UTC)


 * I still support "amateur naturalist" although this deletion comes up from time to time. I wonder if there might an equivalent wording that would be more universally accepted. Ward20 (talk) 17:54, 22 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Although I am sure there are quite a few naturalists in the world who make their living as naturalists, perhaps, for some people, whether a person makes his or her living at being a naturalist is irrelevant, and for them, the person is simply a naturalist, regardless of whether he or she is making a living at it or not. They might feel that the word "amateur" detracts in some way from that endeavor. I don't think Richard Proenneke could be said to have been a naturalist while he was working in regular jobs. I think he became a naturalist gradually, especially after he moved to Alaska, and even more especially after he moved to Twin Lakes (see the last two paragraphs of Richard Proenneke). I'm wondering whether we could express that, and say he became a naturalist -- but when is the question. Ward, what are your thoughts? I can't think of a good substitute for "amateur". Do you have any ideas? CorinneSD (talk) 19:32, 22 August 2014 (UTC)


 * You bring up a good point. After moving to Alaska he recorded documented and filmed the environment around Twin Lakes. Much of the film he used was later subsidized by the wildlife service because they realized his observations and films were valuable. He later received royalties from books based on his documentation and films. His progress toward the traditional definition of a (self taught) naturalist was an evolutionary process that became more important to to public as time went on. Just need a source to describe this process so it isn't labeled WP:OR. I'll put it on the to do list. Ward20 (talk) 20:24, 22 August 2014 (UTC)


 * All good points. CorinneSD (talk) 21:11, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Reference problem
Current reference #4 is a bit lacking, the reference in full reads: "I wrote them (Bob Henning, way last year) saying that it was my request that you be the author." —letter from Richard Proenneke to Sam Keith, dated Feb. 13, 1973. What WP:RS provides the content of that letter? Vsmith (talk) 23:00, 28 June 2014 (UTC)


 * I believe I'v seen that somewhere but can't locate it. Ward20 (talk) 00:43, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Ward20 (talk) 21:37, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

To do
Some claims I read while looking for sources to possibly add from reliable sources if true.


 * He flew a plane for a few years in Alaska until he crashed it.


 * The park service was contemplating taking his cabin when the Lake Clark National Park and Preserve was established, but one of his friends intervened with some sort of native land grant to protect his property.


 * He traveled and had visitors on occasion and was a very good host.


 * His ashes were placed near his cabin on Proenneke Peak.

Ward20 (talk) 06:07, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Much detail about these issues here. Ward20 (talk) 09:47, 29 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks for providing the links. I'll read them at some point. CorinneSD (talk) 20:02, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Death and legacy
Which piece comments on it being the less edited set of materials? — Preceding unsigned comment added by IamM1rv (talk • contribs) 13:30, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Richard Proenneke Site
The members of WP:NRHP are of the belief that every NRHP listing should have its own Wikipedia article, and have been busy lately in fulfillment of that goal, churning out stubs such as these not unlike one would create sausage. While their arguments for such are generally sound, the fact is that many of these articles are effectively permastubs read by few people, not to mention that most are riddled with POV and factual accuracy baggage by virtue of NRHP enthusiasts lazily parroting cherry-picked sources, with little interest on the part of others to fix those problems. Here is one such example. How is it benefiting the encyclopedia to have two separate articles which are so closely related to each other? While merging has occurred in the past, I've been reluctant to propose appropriate merges for the simple reason being that the members of WP:NRHP have chosen to determine "consensus" all by themselves in matters such as these, and have been more content to try and bully me into various trollfests than to have a reasonable discussion. Asking for other opinions here, thank you. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 02:11, 9 March 2015 (UTC)


 * I think it is kind of silly to have a separate (and very short) article on the site. This article, Richard Proenneke, is quite good now. If the group working on the National Register of Historic Places wants to have a list of historic places, the items in the list can be linked to the various articles. That should be sufficient. CorinneSD (talk) 15:49, 9 March 2015 (UTC)


 * I managed to merge Susitna River Bridge without any objection at all a while back. I also agree that merging would be appropriate and beneficial to the encyclopedia. I'll go ahead and add the appropriate tags. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:34, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
 * It has now been over a month with no objections or indeed commentary of any kind, I think the merge can go forward. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:49, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Agree on merge also.Ward20 (talk) 19:10, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
 * ✅. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:44, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

McCandless link
An IP editor removed the link to Christopher McCandless as “spurious” but was reverted. I have re-removed it as I believe I see, and agree with, their point.

Proenneke knew what he was doing. He prepared himself, he had people who knew where he was, he knew how to live off the land, and he did it for over 30 years.

McCandless was a kid who had no idea what he was doing, nobody who knew where he was, and no concept of how to live off the land, and as such died in a matter of months.

They are just not the same thing, and it’s a little insulting to suggest that they are. I have to say as an Alaskan we don’t understand people’s fascination with cases like MCandless or Timothy Treadwell. These are people who came to our untamed wilderness and dared it to kill them, which it did because that’s what it does and it takes a lot of work to do it right, like Mr. Proenneke did. There’s no hard-and-fest rules for see also links, so this basically comes down to people’s opinions, and my opinion is that it does not belong here. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:17, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Dick's Father
Listed as serving in wwII but he was married in 1909 and dick was born in 1916. We sure his father didn't serve in wwi rather than wwii? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.69.196.21 (talk) 19:09, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Ward20 (talk) 01:17, 29 June 2020 (UTC)