Talk:Richard Watson Gilder

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 5 September 2018 and 17 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Peer reviewers: KlimtFan1996.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 09:39, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Contributing new information to this article
For editors who wish to contribute to this article, please remember that you need to provide the best sourcing information that you can (in the form of metadata on the sources), and even multiple sources for each single item of new information, before adding that new information to the article. I, and likely others also, can help with formatting both the information to be added along with metadata describing the sources (the references). Please consider thoroughly discussing your new information, along with the sources for that information, with the other editors who have an interest in this present article. Please discuss anything using this very Talk page in order to get the feedback from other editors. Best regards. --L.Smithfield (talk) 04:32, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Gathering sources for contributions to Gilder-related articles
Hello Closer1616, are you available to answer some questions about the Gilder family? If so, give me a reply here. Thanks. --L.Smithfield (talk) 10:18, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Richard, Watson, Gilder, and Gilder family
Yes I would be happy to answer questions about the Gilder family. Thank you for your inquiry. Closer1616 (talk) 14:57, 11 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Let us start with the children of Richard Watson Gilder. It is a shame that a person such as Gilder was so notable during his own time but now the world hardly even knows who his children were (and when they lived and died). We now know (I think thanks to you) that he had a total of seven children. But because two of them died young, somehow much of the world (in genealogical records) has somewhat forgotten about those two children (and there are conflicting records on them also). Some records of Richard Watson Gilder record or say that he only had five children!
 * But before I get more into expanding the article on Richard Watson Gilder, I need to ask if you yourself are related to Gilder. WP has (rather strict) rules about related people not contributing -- at all -- to articles of their relations. If you are related, we will have to be extra careful about having verifiable sources, and I (rather than you) will have to add any information from those sources to any articles. So please let me know about that (you can contact me through my WP email address if you want on that, rather than revealing that here).
 * In a related matter, are you the owner or a part owner of the Four-Brooks-Farm where some of these Gilders lived? Is that correct? Is it true that the Four-Brooks-Farm housed some of the Gilders during their lives? Was it called Four-Brook-Farms back in the day (the 1800s) when the Gilders were there? Can you clarify how the Farm fits in with the Gilders?
 * One more thing for some homework for you (if I can indulge you a bit more), can you provide birth and death dates (including the day and month) for each of the Gilder children. You can reply to this very post and just list the information (each list item can be started with a '*' character). But please do not try to put that information in this or any other article yet until we have verified good sources (or two or more sources given the rather poor state of affairs). Rather just put any information as a reply to this post (as mentioned already). Afterwards, we can format the metadata for those sources properly for inclusion in any appropriate article (as WP references).
 * And finally for now (there is likely to be a good bit of questions to come from me -- you asked for it after all) there are some grossly conflicting geological records out there (in the various ancestry registers) about the birth and death dates for Helena Marion (the daughter) some records confirm what you have already told us -- namely that she died after six months -- but other records say that she lived three years after her birth. Obviously someone has some wrong information on her. Do you have good proof (in sources) of her birth and death dates? In a related matter, and this is my own opinion now, when I find conflicting sources on any particular matter, I do not try to sneak some preferred information into WP (for whatever reason). Rather I leave that information completely our of WP until a more sure source (or sources) can confirm one version of some matter over a conflicting one. This is something that we have to face with the matter of the birth and death dates of Helena Marion because there are already some conflicting sources on her.
 * Oh, one more thing (I cannot resist!), can you confirm the real full name of Sarah Helena de Kay (her maiden name)? Her full name may already be well established, but I am still a bit curious about it. As you may know there are many records or articles that leave off her first given name (Sarah), so some additional records that list her first name as Sarah would also be helpful. A newspaper article on the announcement of her birth would be a really great source for this sort of thing. This matter may already be clear enough (from existing sources), but I am interested if you have some additional sources on this.
 * Just a final heads up about WP. Although WP has tons of errors in it (I know, because I find tons of errors all over WP), it (WP) -- at least in theory -- really tries hard to be as accurate as possible. I think that they (WP) feel their obligation or responsibility to the public (whatever one might call it) to be as accurate as possible. For myself, I agree with this goal (otherwise I would not waste my time in fixing some WP errors). In a certain sense, many of the errors in WP are not really the faults of the WP editors per se; rather, it is due to conflicting information in various sources, and where a source with bad information happened to be referenced in a WP article (without knowing it was bad). So this means that in general we really need to find good and high quality sources for any information that we might want to add to one or more WP articles. This also means that for many pieces of information about which the sources are somewhat questionable, we will likely have to completely leave that information out of WP (for safety reasons). In general, it is better to leave poorly sourced information out of WP than risk including some bad information (you can see WP:RS on this).
 * Thanks for any help you can provide on these above items (so far).
 * --L.Smithfield (talk) 19:30, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Children we have some information (birth and death dates) on, in no particular order (from WP):
 * + Janet Rosamond de Kay Gilder (17 July 1891 – 5 September 1986)
 * + Rodman de Kay Gilder (years only from WP 1877–1953)
 * I think that Janet Rosamond is sourced well enough (apart from WP), but any other sources for her birth and death (encyclopedic articles, newspaper birth or death articles) would still be useful.
 * But for the other kids (apart from Rodman) we have nearly nothing (at least not in WP). I suspect the following for Rodman (3 January 1877 – 30 September 1953), but we really could use a real source for this. And yes (for those wondering), we often know the answer before it is revealed properly, but we still need good sources for real confirmation.
 * Suspect the following:
 * + George Colman de Kay Gilder (born 3 November 1885)
 * + Helena Francesca de Kay Palmer (nee Gilder) (born 20 November 1888)
 * + Janet Rosamond de Kay Gilder (born 17 July 1891)
 * But again, we could use real sources for this above information.
 * Also, and this might sound a bit strange, we actually need some good sources that some of these people were actual children of Richard Watson Gilder. Many biographies of Gilder and his wife (Sarah Helena) do not even mention most of the children (often only mentioning one, two, or perhaps three). Ya, that is what we are up against!
 * I hate to be a stickler (and I personally did not remove this information as someone else may have) but the current WP on Richard Watson Gilder does not even provide sourcing for the extra kids (besides Janet Rosamond) that are mentioned! --L.Smithfield (talk) 20:18, 11 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Wow! Lots of questions and lots of passion! Let’s start out slowly and I will be happy to provide for you both accurate information and accurate sources. Now a question from me, are you a relative or related in anyway to Richard Watson Gilder? Or Helena de kay Gilder??
 * I am glad to see a strong interest in accuracy in recording someone of such incredible impact in our culture, politics, music and artistic representation during the mid-1800s. A crucial time in this country with incredible changes on the Horizon social clashes, creative passions, exploration, research, and some of the greatest changes in technology & science that have affected mankind today. Very few men of such high standard and influence have reached across so many different fields of cultural evolution as a Richard Watson Gilder. A man of insight who claim to be a seer of future events.
 * Together with his wife,
 * ( Sarah)Helen de kay who carries great charismatic energy and muse of inspiration to many in the art field of both literature, music and all forms of art, the combination became a power couple of the century changing forever the people in the world around them. their circle of friends has inspired, continuous generations of new circles of friends, who have spun off from this creative energy. They continue today to inspire thousands of artist,musicians and writers.
 * We have been blessed ourselves to created our on new circle of friends, who are authors, artist, musicians, literary, figureheads, historians, museum,curators and some of the foremost authorities on the people who surround our circle. We are working with the Lilly library Bloomington Indiana and New York public library, the Smithsonian and Metropolitan, Saint Gauden museum in Cornish New Hampshire museums the whaling Museum in New Bedford mass as well as scholars on Homer, Lafarge, Mary, Hallock, Foote, Cecilia, Beaux, and many many more. GilderPalmer, son of Walter Walker Palmer, prominent researcher and physician and his wife, Helen Francesca Gilder. Gilder’s reach along with his wife Helen far surpassed what most people understand today their friends included George McDonald’s call Mrs. Grandy, John Singer, Sargent, James and William McDonald Richard Harding Davis, presidents such as Roosevelt,Grant & Lincoln Charles, David Gibson’s Louis Carroll, Louis, comfort Tiffany Stanford White, Thomas Edison, Mark Twain, Henry, James Mary, Hallock, Foote, Emma, Lazarus, Robert browning, Catherine Bronson, John Gray Maria Oakley, Minnie, James, and the list goes on and on. He helped to shape the changes in the theater and in music introducing symphony, conductors, or singers and theater, people, such as Madame Helena Modjeska, Marie Calve as well at some of the greatest gardeners and cultivators, bronzers and sculptors. The true story should be told accurately for historical purposes are both the good and bad, the happy and the sad. And we have had tea with such historical recorders as Ruth Taylor, the head of the Newport historical society, Sylvia Yount, the curator at the metropolitan American art, fair tolls on the border of Saint Gauden, New Hampshire. of the four homes, the Gilder zoned and occupied in residence. Gramercy Park, and four perks farm who are the two most important in the family history Four Brooks farm has been called this since it’s inception it is named for the Four Brooks fit still flow through the 163 acre property that was the inspiration and love of Richard watson Gilder. his place to come to heal when health issues plagued him or the hustle of the New York City, and the pressure of his career caused writers, flock and tension. He retreated to his country home to become inspired. as you can see, there’s a lot that needs to be preserved.
 * We are hoping for a national endowment for the humanities grant to be able to continue preserving the Gilder and Palmer history. we are also donating and preserving segments of the history, such as family Bibles for certificates to certificates letters, memorabilia to museums across the country.
 * how would I post photographic documentation sources? Closer1616 (talk) 20:42, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
 * OK, firstly: no, I am in no way remotely or otherwise related to the Gilder family, nor to any associated families of the Gilder family. Rather, I needed to do the most modest of research on one of the Gilder family members (not originally Richard Watson Gilder himself) and was quite surprised to find so little personal information (both on WP and elsewhere) about them, or their family. This is actually not an untypical situation with many people in history; that is, that much of their personal (or family related) information is either missing or even sometimes incorrect. It was even more surprising that a family that had been somewhat prominent (or indeed quite prominent), both in the 1800s and continuing into the 1900s (and arguably continuing into the 2000s), also had so little information about them (especially the details like birth and death dates). This situation is somewhat frustrating for a researcher who only wants a quick peek at somebody and finds so little of the basic details on them; and this is also something of a shame to history itself for a family such as the Gilder's. As I have already mentioned, even the relationships between family members (who is child of whom, et cetera) is not at all well (or substantially) documented for this Gilder family. Am I expecting too much? Maybe, I guess.
 * Thanks for the biographical summary above and your efforts to further research on the Gilder's. Your efforts so far and in the future appear to be quite impressive.
 * About posting photographic documentation (I like the way you are headed with that), there are two main ways to get that as source material. Firstly, the photographs do not actually have to be in any WP articles. Rather, as long as the photographs are on a stable website someplace, only a WP reference made up of the URL to the photograph is needed to be placed into the WP article. This is the quickest and easiest way to use a photograph as a source (just using its URL from where it is already located). Now, secondly, if the photograph is clear of copyright requirements (and WP is very strict on this), the photograph can be uploaded to either the English WP itself, or better yet to the international WikiMedia-Commons website, where the photograph is commonly curated for all use world-wide (by either other language Wikis or even non-Wiki sites world-wide). If a photograph indeed needs to be upload (like if is has to be displayed on a Wiki-page), then uploading it the WikiMedia Commons is the best route. But quite importantly, any photographs uploaded have to be either free of copyright (like the copyright never existed or it expired), or they are copyrighted in a way that allows unlimited and free use world-wide for any reason. There are likely helpful helper articles on WP that discuss the required copyright rules for such. You may want to spend some time on WP exploring the various rules about both sourcing matters (what is acceptable) and about the copyright rules for photographs.
 * I also get from what you have provided above that the person Richard Gilder "Gilly" Palmer (whom you referred to as Gilder Palmer above) is indeed a notable person in his own right. I had not known this. Currently there is no WP article on him, but maybe someday there could be (a possible long-term objective).
 * Now, despite anything I have written about this family in any of these comments, I am just very much quite ignorant about it!
 * So, now let me start slowly with some questions that may be easy to answer (at least for you):
 * + Does Sarah Helena de Kay Gilder actually have the given name of Sarah? Can you confirm this with the sources you have seen?
 * + The person whom you name as Gilder Palmer, is he indeed the person also named as Richard Gilder "Gilly" Palmer (nickname there being "Gilly")?
 * + Are there any other "Gilder Palmer"s beside this one above?
 * + Is this above Richard Gilder Palmer ever referred to as "Richard Gilder"? The reason I ask this is because there is a prominent "Richard Gilder" (1932–2020) out there who does not appear (at least not by me so far) to be related to your Gilder family. Do you know who this other Richard Gilder is?
 * + Did you get a chance yet to find out the real birth and death dates on Helena Marion de Kay Gilder? Did she live for six months (as you mention, and confirmed somewhat from some web records) or live for three years (which I think on Ancestry or similar, but not sure now where)?
 * One of the (very severe) problems with the web and documents on it (including WP), is that very often only abbreviated names are used for people. So tons of time is wasted in trying to figure out if two people of the same abbreviated name are actually the same person or not! The same actually goes for these various web databases that contain the names (and some brief biographical information) on people. They (these database-type websites, like Ancestry.com and similar) very often use abbreviated names of people, so this is the cause of much wasted time in disambiguating people from each other with the same apparent names. Sometimes people with the same names are related, or closely related, and sometimes they are not seemingly related at all. As you may know, many documents do not put the generational suffix after Richard Watson Gilder when required, like with Richard Watson Gilder II, so a good bit of time is even (needlessly) wasted in disambiguating the two Richard Watson Gilders.
 * I will leave it here for now. Best regards,
 * --L.Smithfield (talk) 23:14, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
 * On photographs that are uploaded:
 * I am by no means the expert here, so please someone who really knows this stuff please chime in, but I think that Wikipedia allows for the upload of photographs (or other images) under a "fair use" policy. But Wikimedia-Commons does not. On Wikimedia-Commons (as far as I know), any photographs uploaded must be totally clear of any copyright requirements (again, meaning totally free to use or copyright expired). You might want to research this for yourself for the exact rules on these things. --L.Smithfield (talk) 23:37, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your help with this! All of the photographs that we have possession of we have released copyrights for public use. Many of the photographs you currently see on the current sights as on WP have been released and posted to online sources by the family particularly ours this past 4 years. I too have been committed to 4 1/2 years of waiting through over 35,000 documents. Diaries photographs and letters with aren’t in memorabilia to preserve them and placed them with the correct historical archives. It has been a tremendous undertaking that started over 40 years ago with many of our PhD’s.from all over the world using family documents at Four Brooks for their research. I realized quickly that these important documents needed to be placed in archives where they would be accessible to people everywhere.
 * I can confirm for you that the Sarah Helena dekay, Gilder had Sarah as her given name, but contestant they use a Sarah, while she was in school in Connecticut in a letter to her mother and her mother, somewhat reluctantly agreed to let her use Helena and her legal representation at school. There are some dramatic arguments between her and her highly Christian mother while Helena is at boarding school and meets Henry James niece, mini temple. Dramatic sexual encounters occur between the two and the letters are specific about Helen‘s mother, pulling her from the school to send her to school in Newport.
 * I understand your frustration with the little bit of knowledge that was recorded in history and how many errors were in the data that was available. It was just as frustrating for me, and for many of the PhD candidates that had come to cipher through documents with me and your second question the child Helena Marion dekay Gilder lived only six months, and succumbed to pneumonia
 * This has been confirmed through multiple documentation in family Bible letters, and is also on the head stone of the child in the Bordentown cemetery behind the gilder home that Richard wants and Gilder grew up in and is a family museum. We have been in a number of articles in the current newspaper in Bordentown with the Historical Society documenting many of the family, headstones and dates. We have been working on a book for two years, which will be available and print sometime the end of November, with all of the family gravesites and Photographs from all over the world. There are many of the historical museum projects, and treasures that are waiting for the release of this book to document these things. Trying very hard to do my part to bring the next generation aware of the importance of these historical people and their contributions. Even many of our own family members have lost track and do not know about their ancestors contributions in history. People of the last two generations have been more concerned over battling assets and trying to outdo each other and acquiring inheritance, we have been struggling to sustain  the momentum to get as many of these historical items and documents in places where people will be able to use them for generations to come and research with accuracy.
 * In answer to your third question Gilder Palmer called Gilly oh original first name was Richard Gilder Palmer is Francesca‘s oldest son and was a World War II veteran decorated Purple Heart medic. The son of Walter Walker Palmer, the prominent physician and Helena Francesca gilder palmer. Francesca and she was known and most of the writings in the family and letters or just F. Was Richard‘s favorite child
 * She was the nurturer and glue in the family a middle girl, who later cares for her mother and her father and her older sister Dorothea, who dies very young at the tender age of 38 years old. Also documented in family, Bibles, letters journals, and in the bordentown cemetery headstones.
 * The Richard Gilder that lived 1932 to 2020 is no connection to this family at all and actually adapted to Gilder name after reading history about Richard Watson Gilder. He died within months of Anne Gilder Palmer.
 * But they are of no relation. Many of the family members over the years have repetitively used the names over and over again making historical data. Very confusing. We have tried very hard to put a family tree and accurate documentation to that tree accessible for researchers. hope this information has been helpful to clear up some of the confusion. I will post all of the children’s names and date of birth and death in consecutive order.
 * (Helena) Marion dekay Gilder
 * Born December 12, 1875, Newport Rhode Island
 * Died July 23, 1876, New York
 * Data from headstones and Gilder Cemetery, Bordentown, New Jersey also in family, diaries and Bible, many letters in the Lilly library, and the New York public library
 * Rodman dekay Gilder born January 31, 1877 died September 30, 1953, age 76
 * Family, Bible, letters and headstones
 * Richard decay Gilder Junior, born December 14, 1880 die December 14, 1880 as per family Bible Bordentown headstone
 * Dorothea, Millicent, DK, Gilder McGrew. Born April 14, 1882 died March 10, 1920 at the age of 38 years old died in Four Brooks farm supportive, documentation, family, Bibles, letters, diaries Bordentown headstones George dekay Gilder born November 3, 1885 died November 14, 1931, age 46 years old. Documented letters, family Bibles journals Bordentown headstones.
 * Helena Francesca dekay Gilder Palmer born Marion Massachusetts November 20 1888 died June 28, 1984 age 96
 * resource info, family bible letters journals, and diaries
 * tyringham, an Massachusetts grave, cemetery headstone.
 * Janet Rosamond dekay Gilder‘s born 17th, July 1891 died September 5, 1986, age 95 years old. Never married no children.
 * diaries family bible letters
 * Head stone, tearing him cemetery Tyringham, Massachusetts.
 * Dorothea, Gilder, Francesca, Gilder, and Rosamond Gilder all died at the home at Four Brooks farm. Helena de kay Gilder. died at Gramercy Park in the family home in New York data supported
 * New York Times order from obituary May 28, 1916. Family letters, Bibles and journals.
 * there are now only two people living at four brooks farm in Tyringham, Massachusetts, the Berkshires, one of which is the family oracle.
 * Caretaker for three generations of the family.
 * Dorothy and Millicent dekay Gilder McGrew, who was the love interest of Cecilia Beaux for many years and her travel companion well documented. Marries Dallas McGrew just weeks before her mothers death and has one daughter, Helen McGrew Newman born March 8, 1917 died September 28, 1978, age 71 years old.
 * Her mother dies when she is only four years old. She was born in China dies in Gramercy Park, New York, and is buried in Bordentown cemetery with her mother Dorothea.
 * George dekay Gilder‘s was a known horseman and jumper in major competitions document New York Times 1923 he continues to jump and race, horses and compete in polo and fox hunting until a bad horse accident where he is thrown from a horse who misses a jump
 * in 1929 and lands on his head seems to have been hospitalized release rehospitalized released hospitalized and died November 14, 1931 of neck and head injury.
 * cording to family documents, head, stone, Bordentown cemetery
 * Hope much of this is helpful
 * best,
 * The Gilder palmers Closer1616 (talk) 02:46, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, this is extremely helpful in getting the basics of the family at this generation. Thank you very much. I hate to be overly picky, but I do have a couple of clarifying questions for confirmation on this information above:
 * + Is the full name of the person you call 'George de Key Gilder' really George Coleman de Kay Gilder?
 * + Is the full name of 'Dorothea de Kay Gilder' before her marriage really Dorothea Millicent de Kay Gilder?
 * + What was the real married name of 'Dorothea Millicent' when she married her husband (surname 'McGrew')? Was it Dorothea Millicent de Kay McGrew or Dorothea Millicent de Kay Gilder McGrew?
 * + Do you know in general if the girls (all or some of them) changed their surnames (maiden names) on the occasion of their marriages to the surname of their husbands, or did some of the girls just add their husband's surname to the end of their existing name (added after their existing maiden names)? I ask this because sometimes in historical records, people (recorders) make up fake last names like Dorothea Millicent de Kay Gilder McGrew when in reality the name was changed (legally) to Dorothea Millicent de Kay McGrew? On the contrary, as you may know, sometimes the practice on the event of marriage of a woman (based on culture or other factors) is to indeed just add the husbands surname to the end of their existing maiden name (including their father's surname) thereby making their old surname an additional middle name. Do you know what the practice was in general with the changing of names for woman on marriage?
 * Thanks for any clarification with this above questions.
 * In other matters you mention your book coming out at the end of November. I just want to thank you and the others working on that with you for all of your work. That book (assuming that it has all of this sort of detailed information above) will (in my opinion) be invaluable as a biographical resource for this family. As I mentioned previously, although many biographies make mention of what the parents may have accomplished in life, amazingly they make little or no mention of even the names of the children. And in some cases, like with the death of children at a very young age, sometimes biographers (maybe unwittingly or not) leave out any mention of the children who died very young. I have seen this in biographies (incomplete as they may be) in leaving out any mention of the children Helena Marion and Richard Watson.
 * I have to give some thought about how we might be able to get some source references for some of this material into existing WP articles (mainly being the article on Richard Watson Gilder). Currently there are only a relatively few WP articles (maybe seven or so, not exactly sure) for some of this extended family, so a good first step is to fill out some of these details for the WP articles that already exist. I have to spend some time updating my personal notes also.
 * In a related matters (not to frighten you too much), are you prepared to provide information on the family of the father of Richard Watson Gilder, a one William Henry Gilder Sr (with wife Jane Nutt), and all of his children (nine children in all if I have that correct)? But I do not want to get too far ahead of ourselves at this time, so we will stick to the current generation for now.
 * Thanks again and best regards,--L.Smithfield (talk) 04:33, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi Closer1616, You mentioned in a comment above that you have endeavored to create a family tree of the Gilder family (I assume with any associated people like husbands and wives, for example). Is this family tree that you have so far on-line anywhere, like in one or more of these geological websites (like Ancestry.com and similar)? --L.Smithfield (talk) 04:54, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi Closer1616, You mentioned in a comment above that you have endeavored to create a family tree of the Gilder family (I assume with any associated people like husbands and wives, for example). Is this family tree that you have so far on-line anywhere, like in one or more of these geological websites (like Ancestry.com and similar)? --L.Smithfield (talk) 04:54, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Gilder/Palmer family
We are currently working on a very thorough family tree divided all the way back to the dekay’s and to the Gilder‘s. It has been done in two separate portions then merging with Helen and Richard and going forward to this generation. This has been a project that’s been worked on for four years, there are currently several articles available in the bordentown current written by Doug Kiovsky, who is the president of the preservation society in Bordentown. I worked with him on four articles for the current, which I believe, are available online. They ran this year. Yes I am indeed able to fill in the blanks for Richard, Watson, Gilder‘s, father and mother, Jane nut, and William Gilder and their children. We have the family Bible, which is going to be donated to a Bordentown. Gilder house. There are also articles about us in the Bordentown current and the work we are doing,As well as articles in the Sippican week newspaper in Marion, Massachusetts, Cape Cod. Helen has old stone studio still stands there, and we are fighting to have it preserved. There is a museum, the island to her and her art. sippicon historical society is working with us and has made a museum to the Gilder‘s. Bordentown, New Jersey and the original Gilder house were donated with its contents to the town of bordentown New, Jersey, by Rodman, Gilder and his wife, Louis comfort Tiffany known as (comfort)! in answer to your second question, George can (Coleman)dekay Gilder Richard and Helen, the second son to survive. Was an incredible equestrian, and also followed his brother Rod to join the military, and become highly decorated. Never married. He was gay, and had a live-in partner most of his life. The girls definitely followed the practice of taking their husbands surname, and in some places they use the full name of their maiden name as well, but I believe, even for the more modern cultural practices of the time. Legally, they changed their names, and added it to their maiden name, they were equally as proud of the Gilder name as they were the dekay so they passed both to most of the children. Helen never use Sarah again as her first name until her obituary. She was never called Sarah, or referred to as Sarah in the family documents, Dorothea, who becomes one of the more famous children, was the companion to Cecilia Beaux, and kept her Gilder name until marrying Dallas McGrew, at which time she added, Mcgrew and seems to have dropped Gilder upon his request. He was a very dominant figure in the family of young girls upon their Father’s Death and unfortunately I believed they relied on him for financial counsel as well as trusted him to be a good husband to their sister. Some family documents not such a good idea. Dorothea‘s head stone reads.” Dorothea Millicent de Kay” “the wife of Dallas Dayton lore McGrew “and daughter of “Richard Watson and Helena de Kay Gilder” it took us quite a while to find the grave because it was not listed Gilder, although she is buried in the Gilder cemetery, and not with her husband, who remarried and is buried in Bethesda. Strangely enough, her daughter, Helena mcgrew was baptized, Helena Dorothea Gilder Mcgrew but is not recorded to have ever used That name. She always went by Helena McGrew and then later, after her marriage she added her husband surname and went by Helena McGrew Newman for the rest of her life. much of her letters between she and her mother and she and her father are in the Lilly library in Bloomington Indiana. In the family Bible and legal documents we have found in the house. Dorothea has dropped the name Gilder and goes by Dorothea Millicent McGrew although articles in the newspaper articles reporting about her always use Dorothea Gilder mcGrew. when I first started putting the family documents in order, I found terribly frustrating that there was so much controversy,so little information available and so much in accuracy in what was available for researchers. This is why it has taken so long to rummage through so many documents and articles and historical recordings such as Bible entries of marriages births and deaths,newspaper reports etc. I am afraid as time goes on many of the documents, which could have been more helpful, were destroyed or lost,but 65 boxes of documents remained when I took over the project. I have given up a substantial portion of my career to focus on this because I believe it to be that important hope much of this is helpful. if you would prefer to do some of this, or most this off of this platform please feel free to email me personally (lscp1616@gmail) Closer1616 (talk) 16:46, 12 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Hi Closer1616, Thank you so much for your knowledge about the various name usage throughout the family. This may seem like a trivial matter, but it is genuinely important that history record what were both the legal names of these people (both before and after marriage) as well as the names that they used for their everyday lives. In my view, good historical records will record each variation of a person's name throughout their lives (with explanations accompanying each usage). This sort of information greatly helps readers (perhaps mostly historians) follow all of the family relationships regardless of how name usage changes over time. Just to let you know, please do not forget these details about name usage. This is likely to be something that comes up again and again as each person eventually gets recorded in some biographical record or other (including in WP).
 * Related: I -- and other serious Wikipedians -- try to treat WP as a "real" or "serious" encyclopedia, even though on the surface it often does not seem to warrant that respect. I hate to say it, but it is not at all a secret, that WP has a famous (infamous) history of containing large numbers of very gross errors -- ever since its very founding. The situation with WP is so bad (its history of gross errors) that major academic institutions (and even minor ones), corporations, and other research oriented organizations have issued standing recommendations to completely avoid using WP as an encyclopedic resource. Yes, WP's notorious reputation has become (and has been) that bad. But in my perusal of other biographical records, having errors is not entirely unique to WP. Errors certainly do get into other biographical records besides WP. So I do not want to be entirely critical of WP on this matter of accuracy. So for myself, I tend to be as accurate and thorough as I can be when adding information, and especially biographical information, to WP. So I also apologize if many of my questions seem trivial, repetitive, or pedantic.
 * Thanks again and regards, --L.Smithfield (talk) 18:12, 12 September 2023 (UTC)