Talk:Richmond, Virginia/Archive 1

Fire

 * Is the big fire yesterday worth mentioning? Tuf-Kat 23:29, Mar 27, 2004 (UTC)
 * My opinion: Maybe under recent events, but that's not that big, is it? MAybe if you put it in context of development of VCU area. MPS 20:04, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * If you count the fire at the old railroad station in the 1900s at shockoe bottom and Hurricane Isabel.

River District

 * Are the "River District" and Shockoe Bottom/Slip distinct entities? I had kind of always assumed the River District was an area of town that included the Bottom and the Slip... MaxPower 17:38, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * My opinion: The River District is a recent invention by branding wizards who want to reinvent downtown as a great place to live. I think it is an attempt to name the area surrounding the "Canal Walk District" so tourists can orient to the city. According to the below link, it encompasses the Slip, the Bottom, Manchester(across the James), and Church Hill.  (A list of "River District" attractions is here.) Bottom line, if someone gets shot, it's in the Bottom; If there's new development construction, it's in the River District. POV aside, the old names are what everyone uses and the new name is relevant to encyclopedic docimentation.  I say include both sets of names since people may want to know something about each. Feel free to add content since Richmond is a quickly developing entry. MPS18:52, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Well put! I agree 100% MaxPower 19:54, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Suggested Tasks

 * list radio stations and newspaper/media outletsfor Richmond. like the Richmond Times Dispatch, Wadi, Punchline, Style weekly, Richmond Magazine, etc. MPS23:40, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * As a side note, I don't think punchline exists anymore. And if you are including things like Wadi the Richmond Free Press needs to be in there. MaxPower 19:55, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Agreed. MPS
 * It seems inappropriate to describe The Richmond Free Press as "particularly widely read among the liberal crowd" while making no mention of the pronounced and unashamed right-wing leanings of the Richmond Times-Dispatch. I believe the quoted remark regarding the Free Press should be removed from the main page completely, as the other option seems to be an endless debate as to where each individual Richmond publication falls within the political spectrum.  If it read that the Times Dispatch was "quite popular among far right-wingers", or that Style Weekly was "widely read among the gay crowd" (just for example's sake), would that not be inappropriate?


 * Flesh out neighborhood descriptions
 * Recent Events in Richmond ( Should we do it by year, or decade or what? MPS 20:04, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Improve History. A great book titled Richmond: The Story of a City by Virginius Dabney is the end all authority of Richmond history, and would be helpful. The history section could be expanded greatly from its current 3 paragraphs. I guess I have difficulty in deciding what is worthy of an entry and not... MaxPower 20:00, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I compiled the following from other cities:
 * institutions
 * Annual cultural events and fairs
 * Performing arts
 * Art museums and galleries
 * Other museums, aquariums, zoos, and cultural centers
 * Educational institutions
 * Media
 * Broadcast television
 * Newspapers
 * Radio
 * Medical centers and hospitals
 * Government
 * Geography
 * Bodies of water
 * Climate
 * Official nickname, flower, slogan, and song (etc if any)
 * Transportation
 * Street layout (maybe a street map or link to some)
 * Is there anyway we could replace the boring old picture of Virginia with the red dot with maybe something like a street map of the city? Or a map showing its boundaries? I like the way the Austin%2C_Texas page is organized. As a side note, it seems like the RVA page is getting kind of cluttered.--MaxPower 20:06, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

MPS 00:33, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I'm new to all of this, but the Richmond page made me want to post. Can we get the Byrd Theatre links changed so that they read "Byrd Theatre" on all pages? It links to the "Byrd Theater" currently, even though the separate description names it correctly. I couldn't find a way to do this. Kyraven 20:30, 1 Feb 2006
 * I've moved the Byrd Theater content to Byrd Theatre and renamed links. Byrd Theaer is now a redirect to Byrd Theatre.   [[Image:Monkeyman.png]]Monkeyman 14:35, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Category of Richmond
I just did a major rearrangement to make RVA page to make it a little more intuitive and readable. I also just realized there is a category page for Richmond VA. []. We may want to check out how other "major" cites are laid out based on their category pages. MPS 17:03, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC) [] [] [] [] [] (triple-[ intentional so it doesn't list as a category)

I *love* they way Chicago does their nieghborhoods. In the main article all it says is "Chicago has many informal or traditional neighborhoods that do not correspond to a community area." With a link to Categories:Chicago_neighborhoods. That is the way to go I think. --MaxPower 18:50, 2004 Nov 22 (UTC)

Manchester isn't that important
Why is manchester listed both in the neghborhoods of richmond and then as a huge paragprah in the history section? That's overemphasis in my book. I say merge what content is in the history section there into the manchester negighborhood section. Also, I have never heard the about a free bridge agreement in exchange for incorporation. Did User:Vaoverland make that up? MPS 20:09, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

As a former city employee working in transportation and bus routing, I worked on the plans for the Manchester Bridge in the early 1970s. (It opened in 1972). I was made aware of the requirement in the consolidation agreement. I was told by city officials (including former City Manager Horace Edwards) that tolls had been removed from the old Ninth Street Bridge ("singing bridge") due to the agreement. I was also told there there were modern concerns that the design of the new Manchester Bridge include a requirement for for a pedestrian walkway, hence the wide sidewalk currently in the middle.

The 1970 annexation was in dispute at the time, and the longevity of the Lee Bridge and the 14th Street (Mayo) Bridge, both formerly toll facilities themselves, was in question at the time, especially since the latter had been submerged during the flood following Hurricane Camille in 1969. Of course, the Lee Bridge did require replacement, although the Mayo Bridge went underwater several more times prior to the flood wall, and has proved far more durable than many feared.

I will try to dig up some verification beyond the above.

I have no problem with condensing the Manchester history section, which involves far more than a neighborhood in my opinion. As long as we seem to be in a snowball toss here, I would recommend the ieSpell program to MPS so at least talk containing insulting comments can contain correct spelling. Vaoverland 20:48, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

No offense intended. I had just never heard that piece of information in all my readings about Richmond. my baad. MPS 21:25, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Having returned the snowball, I am satisfied and gladly apologize as well. I am working hard to add to the quality of Wikipedia and I will assume you are writing and contributing in the same spirit. Here is an interesting quote from http://www.richmondhillva.org/expanding.htm

"There's something of a joke among Richmond natives about crossing our river, with an accompanying sense of pride attached to the side of the river on which one happens to live. The James represents a clear boundary between "us" and "them."  Even though what you're seeking might be closer and easier to reach by taking a bridge, the presence of the river makes the other side seem much further than it really is.  Some would prefer to go a longer distance to find what they need just to keep from going across."

BTW, I found that the Virginia Historical Society has some documents archived regarding Manchester and the consolidation with Richmond. I plan to do some other research there anyway, so I intend to follow up, as I would like to better verify my statement (and learn a little more about a mutually agreed annexation). Vaoverland 21:37, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

More history
History section stops at the annexation of Manchester ~1910. We should develop a more complete history of richmond, possibly to become a separate article like they have in Chicago I am putting bullets below for each decade for people to insert key events. Then, as this becomes more filled, I/we can write up paragraphs it to the main article. (I think this mini-project could be done in a separate article but I am not sure if there would be support for this)

Feel free to add items here separated by commas (Categories may include: Buildings and Infrastructure, Politics and Law, Community Life and Institutions, Demographic changes, Arts and Education, Sports teams, Commercial and Industrial movements, and National/Global events):

I deleted the shell I had created and created a new article Timeline of Richmond, Virginia

West End as separate article?
I was thinking: The West End (Richmond, Virginia) has a character and identity of its own distrinct from Greater Richmond. Perhaps a separate article on this sub-region would be appropriate. Topics would include Commercial Geography (natural division categories would be exits along the highway including Staples Mill/Westampton, Glenside, Parham, Gaskins/Innsbrook, Short Pump, 295, 288/West Creek/Goochland), Parks and recreation (Deep run park, pony pasture), Culture ( School rivalries such as Godwin vs Tucker vs Freeman).

A companion article might be South Side with Residential Neighborhoods (Brandermill, Bon Air, Stony Point), Industrial (Defense Supply, PMUSA manufacturing, Overnite, Deep Water Terminal, Pocohontas Parkway), Commercial districts (Chesterfield Town Center, Hull Street, Midlothian.), Parks and recreation (Pocohontas park, ) and Cultural (increase in Hispanic population, quality Chesterfield schools and libraries, ). The categorization could again be possibly made by exits from the Powhite parkway (forest hill ave, parham, midlothian, hull, 288).

(This does not preclude the possibility of The East End (Richmond, Virginia) or  North Side (Richmond Virginia) articles but really what I want to do is a West End article for now.)

I want to get a head nod from somebody as a sanity check. Is this a good idea?? Anyone??? MPS 19:21, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I am not sure how area/neighborhood articles are typically done. You might want to look at other cities to see if there is a WP pattern. Just quick thoughts. Vaoverland 23:48, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)

Just Looked at Boston Metro and they have North Shore (Massachusetts) The Berkshires Greater Boston Cape Cod North Shore Pioneer Valley South Shore. North Shore is broken out Geography -- History -- Sites to See

Also, Staten Island neighborhoods at indicates that we might make separate articles for different regions and then link them together with the category:Richmond, Virginia. Staten Island's 'regions' don't have categories but it looks like they have sections for transportation, commerical history, and sites to see. MPS 20:41, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Museum District
Does anyone know if the Museum District is that neighborhood's proper name? I was under the assumption that the "Real" name was "West of the Boulevard." Boy this articl needs cleanup. Haha I will add it to my task list of things I never do! --MaxPower 15:42, 2005 Jan 6 (UTC)

West of the Boulevard sounds more familiar and appropriate to me. Museum District? If so, then should we toss in the Science Museum (and I guess the Children's Museum next door to it) way over on the North side of Broad, and east of the Boulevard to boot? And, you are also right about the need for cleanup. Vaoverland 17:56, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)

"Museum District" is a name apparently invented by real estate agents. It has however gained a fair amount of local currency... Fawcett5 05:20, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Here is a great map that has name of all the neighborhoods on it, unfortunately the text is way to small for me to read for most of them. It does look like the name for the West of the Boulevard is "West of the Boulevard" but like I said, they text is way to small. Also, yeah the Science Museum isn't in West of the Boulevard/The Museum District. I don't really know what that neighborhood is called. Its not quite yet Carver, and I don't think it's really "North of Broad." I consider Highland Park/Ginter Park area to be "North of Broad." I guess technically it *is* north of Broad St. though. I dunno, I'll ask around and see what people say. --MaxPower 14:51, 2005 Jan 7 (UTC)


 * My vote is that they are interchangeable; either name works. Richmond city web page says "Museum District [West of the Boulevard]" and they are an authoritative source. List both.  MPS 17:18, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * I second the motion to use both. I would like to have a better resolution copy of the ACORN map showing Richmond's neighborhood boundaries and names. Of course, these are in the city limits only, and some of the broad areas (such as The West End) include many idnvidual neighborhoods which lie beyond the city limits as well. Vaoverland 05:30, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)


 * Excellent idea! Also if anyone can find (or aquire) the original hi-res version of that ACORN map please let me know! I would be soooooo interested! --MaxPower 15:10, 2005 Jan 10 (UTC)

Proposed Richmond Revamp
Below is a big outline of how I think the *new* Richmond page should look. Please leave your comments and maybe we will have to vote on some stuff, I dunno. I think it is a good start to making the page cleaner, easier to read, and more informative. Its pretty long, so sorry about that.
 * Oh one more thing. I uploaded the city flag and city logo that I'm going to hopefully put in the city box. So no need to upload them if you were going to. --MaxPower 20:59, 2005 Jan 24 (UTC)

Things Richmond needs (based mostly off the Chicago article)

 * General
 * City Box(Seen on San_Diego, Baltimore, Maryland, Chicago) Although I don't think it needs to be at the very top of the page, I like how Chicago does it.
 * I think we should aim for more paragraph style text and less Headings and bullet points. At least for me this makes it look more like an article, and less like a collection of stubs.
 * I think we should ditch the "Mottos, Slogans, and Nicknames" section and pick one (maybe the official one or "Easy 2 ") and put it in the City Box. If someone is really attached to that information, maybe it can be stuck in another section in paragraph form.
 * I think we need to do something about the Recent Richmond Events bit. I am not sure what to do though. I haven't really seen anything like it on other city pages, although I do like it. Perhaps it could be condensed, or reformatted or something. I dunno.
 * It would be cool to have a picture of the Robert E. Lee statue somewhere in the article.
 * Sections
 * History
 * Remove "Sprague electrifies the streetcars of Richmond" from section. This could go into it's own article, or into the Frank_J._Sprague article -- or somewhere else. It just seems out of place.''
 * I would like to see a 20th century category in the History section. We could move the Manchester bit under there. I'm sure there is interesting hisory (I'll break out my richmond book) that we could add. I'm sure there is some embarassing segregation stuff we could put in there.
 * There is no mention of the 1992 Presidential Debates at UR. I think these were the first Town Hall style debates ever.
 * Government
 * Move the Capitol picture under this section
 * Wilder was the nation's first 'elected' black governor. There was another one in Lousiana I think that was not elected. So Wilder isn't the nation's *only* black governor. Have there been black Governor's since Wilder?
 * Andre Parker and Calvin Jameson have both left their positions. I don't know if new ones have been hired yet or not.
 * There is no mention of how Richmond is the political seat of virginia and as such has many state politcal agencies/offices etc.
 * Geography
 * If we could get a color sattelite photo of richmond that would rock. All I could find was this arial photo taken in '94. Anyone find anything better?
 * We need to break out the neighborhoods section. Maybe into a category like Chicago does. Or at least a seperate page. A link to that page can go here.
 * Some city pages have a Climate section. I could go either way. It could be a sub section of Geography I think.
 * Fold in "Surrounding Cities and Counties" section
 * Demographics
 * Looks pretty good to me
 * Economy
 * We don't even have an economy section. Obviously the "Significant Businesses and Non-Profits" section can get folded into here. It might be nice to know things like employment numbers, how much money is made – I dunno, this isn't my balliwick.
 * Something that needs to go in here maybe is when those banks left for Research Triangle. Didn't that screw Richmond over some how?
 * Perhaps some history in this section too. Obviously history of Big Tobacco, and maybe Richmond's economic role in the civil war.
 * Education
 * No mention of MCV?! Can it be? This section could be expanded, maybe give a little history about UR and the civil war?
 * Culture/Arts/Tourism/Recreation
 * Rename the "Notable Sites" section to something like this.
 * Add "Annual Events and Festivals" under here, preferably in paragraph form.
 * Put the suggested media outlets in here?
 * Sports
 * Put he existing "Professional Sports Team" section here.
 * Add in some stuff abotu college sports. I guess mainly Div IA basketball, and maybe Div II basketball. Isn't VUU #1 Div II? I think they are, or used to be? VCU soccer is pretty good too.
 * Transportation
 * Looks good.
 * Famous Richmonders
 * Didn't Patch Adams, of Robin Williams movie fame, graduate from MCV?
 * External Links
 * Could use some updating/cleaning

--MaxPower 19:19, 2005 Jan 24 (UTC)
 * I'll review and comment soon, but not today. MPS 16:00, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

"Fist City" Debate
"Fist City" - I've heard it used and used it myself dozens of times. If you've ever been to a show there, you know why its called that. -mAxfn


 * I just removed "Fist City" from the nick name part of the InfoBox. Personally I have never heard anyone call Richmond "Fist City." I don't even think "Fist City" should show up in the list of motto's and nick names. Actually I don't even like that list at all ; ). But I think it is a good compromise to leave "Fist City" in the Motto section and take it out of the InfoBox. "River City" is certainly a more accepted nick name. Although switching it from nick name to motto and using "Easy To Heart" might be good? Thoughts? --MaxPower 16:45, 2005 Feb 16 (UTC)


 * (1) I agree that Fist City is obscure. I have never heard of it. Today, someone else removed it altogther and I have no beef with that. (2) Thanks for leaving the mottos list list in. (You earn neutrality points from me for this) I personally think it is valuable information for people to have access to. We may want to consider a separate culture page such as Culture of San Francisco, California for some of the information that may bug you. (3) I am quite sure "Easy to Love" is the motto, and not "Easy to Heart."  proofMPS 22:22, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * I won't argue to keep "fist city" in the list, but I do want to mention that it is in high usage among many people in the "underground" scenes of Richmond and elsewhere. Lachatdelarue (talk) 22:58, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Haha yeah, I know it isn't "Easy to Heart," but you know how the signs say "Easy 2 [heart]" with a picture of a heart? Yeah I am fine with sticking with "River City" if that is what people want. I like the idea of a separate culture section. It would be cool to talk about the "hardand award-wininng core scene" which is where I imagine "fist city' is in heavy use. I mean hate-oh-four was a thing, was it not? Again, not my balliwick. But I support the idea if there is enough content for the page! --MaxPower 16:17, 2005 Feb 17 (UTC)


 * Regarding the expression, "fist city", I would like to see published source(s) for this nickname. The sad truth is that Richmond's homicide rate would be lower if more fists were used to resolve conflicts (and less guns and knives), if physical confrontations are "necessary" at all. If this area of Richmond's problems should be presented, the outstanding Operation Exile program should also be mentioned. As a former EMS worker here in the City of Richmond, I cannot recall treating or transporting a fist fight victim, alive or not. I am still trying to forget images of the shootings, stabbings, and the morgue. Sorry, WP folks, but, that's all I care to write about it in my retirement. Someone else can do that part of this article. Vaoverland 20:40, Feb 18, 2005 (UTC)


 * The band Sixer has a song called "Fist City" which is about RVA. Their band is from RVA, they're ex...Ann Beretta, I think


 * I did a google search and did indeed find some punk bands refer to RVA as Fist city for its toughness. google search Maybe we can add facts about Richmond's STD rate as well, under a header like "crime and vice" in the proposed culture page. then we can talk about how people who live on the south side are afraid to go to the Fan because they think north of the River is a all one big crime scene. I am half kidding. MPS 21:36, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Another nickname for Richmond is the "Holy City'. This was coined by former state senator Ed Willey and referred to the 'pilgrimage' each January by legislators from throughout the state to Richmond. It also reflected how Sen. Willey felt about Richmond, especially regarding state funding. Sen. Willey was chair of the Senate Finance committee and always saw to it that Richmond got its share of state funds.


 * Given the relatively conservative nature of the politics in Virginia, I can somewhat see how said state senator said that. Yet, I think that the term is pretty new, and unless and until it finds its way into common use by many people, I'd say it's probably non-notable in terms of an encyclopedia. (PS: It's common wikipedia etiquette to sign your statements on talk pages with four ~'s.) Dr. Cash 19:59, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Never Heard of it. My POV is that "Holy City" is non-notable. I would want a citation or three to corroborate this. MPS 01:28, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

As of right now I will be initiating a petition in order to get Fist City permanently added to the colloquialisms list. If you actually live in Richmond city proper (not The Greater Richmond Metropolitan Area, but Richmond itself) you know the term Fist City, and very well may use it yourself. I will post results of my petition in about a week. I expect several thousand signatures with no problem at all. Sometimes 7:02, 07 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I'm still not buying this whole "fist city" thing at all. And a "petition" really ain't gonna cut it, either (most petitions are pretty much ineffective anyway, irregardless of how many "signatures" they get).


 * Let's take a look at the top 20 Google searches for "fist city" (in order of their appearance in google):


 * 1. Fist City Scooter Club - A scooter club based out of Atlanta, Georgia (no reference to Richmond anywhere on these pages).
 * 2. Another Scooter Club hit: Welcome to FIST CITY! We're an informal mostly unorganized club dedicated to riding Lambretta, Vespa and other vintage motorscooters. You'll find us at rallies and races worldwide or by following the trails of parts and oil down the road.
 * 3-4. Lyrics to Loretta Lynn's 1968 song "Fist City": &  (note: Loretta Lynn is from Kentucky)
 * 5. MP3 Download to Loretta Lynn's song
 * 6. Amazon.com link for Tribe 8's Fist City Album (note: Tribe 8 is a San Francisco, California-based dyke punk rock band)
 * 7. More Loretta Lynn Lyrics
 * 8. Urban Dictionary Definition of the Term: The only definition listed says, "A term we use to describe aggravated fights at Chico State parties." (apparently, a reference to California State University - Chico)
 * 9. More Loretta Lynn Lyrics
 * 10. Not sure what to make of this hit, but I'm guessing it's useless: . ;-) fistcity.net is registered to Grant McInnes, who lives in Ontario, Canada.
 * 11. Loretta Lynn Lyrics again
 * 12. MySpace page for a 28-year old woman in Louisville, Kentucky.
 * 13. MySpace page for a 27-year-old man in Zeroville, Illinois.
 * 14. Link to purchase the Tribe 8 Fist City Album (lesbian girl band).
 * 15. Somebody's blog; supposedly from Atlanta, Georgia.
 * 16. Fall 2004 Playlists for Loretta Lynn's song on some New York radio station.
 * 17. Flickr page for a woman, possibly in North Carolina or Tennessee?
 * 18. msn music listing for the Saving Grace Album by Sixer? Ok, so apparently Sixer is from Richmond,...
 * 19. Scooter Club again,...
 * 20. Track Statistics for Loretta Lynn's Song.


 * Just one reference or link to anything even closely relating to Richmond, Virginia in the top 20. Granted, google did return 44,500 hits. But one would think that the really notable ones would show up early (in the first 20 or so). Based on some of these hits (the fact that not every single one is Loretta Lynn's song, but looking at some of the others), I would think that the term "Fist City" has come into pop culture use throughout many cities in the U.S., from Atlanta to San Francisco. Pinning this term to one city would be very, very difficult. Dr. Cash 19:15, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * A secondary google search for "fist city"+"richmond, virginia" does return 151 hits (versus 44,500 hits for the overall search for "fist city"). Plus, it one of the hits was for Sixer (band), which is apparently from Richmond. Though, I'm still not sold on notability towards one city. The term could realistically be applied to many U.S. cities. Dr. Cash 19:27, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The search you should be using is: "Fist city" Virginia -loretta. This way you get rid of all of the non-consequencial Loretta Lynn song lyrics, and of course you shouldn't search for "Fist city" and "Richmond" in the same search, because people use it as a substitute for Richmond. When you search for "Fist City" Virginia -loretta the results you get are:


 * 1. - MySpace profile for someone living in Richmond
 * 2. - Another MySpace profile for someone else living in Richmond
 * 3. - A post on a forum from someone who says they're from "Fist City, VA" - I'm pretty sure they're from Richmond.
 * 4. - A blog post that contains the line i live in richmond virginia, murder city usa, or for you richmonder’s “the fifth city” or fist city
 * 5. - One of the scooter club references you found earlier
 * 6. - Typo. From context obviously meant "First City" not "Fist City"
 * 7. - Reference to Kelly Willis covering Loretta Lynn's song
 * 8. - A boxing center
 * 9. - Same boxing center
 * 10. - Another typo. From context obviously meant "First City" not "Fist City"


 * In the first ten links, the breakdown is as follows: 1 reference to a cover of the Loretta Lynn song, 1 reference to that scooter club, 2 typos, 2 boxing center references and the first four results are all obviously references to Richmond. Additionally, link number 4 proves what I've been trying to say. For people that actually live in Richmond City proper, it is a very well established colloqualism. I see from your user page you used to live in the 'burbs around here and spent some time at VCU, but that's not quite the same as living in the city. Sometimes 03:50, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * That's interesting, but nonetheless, personal blogs and myspace pages do not make good references for notability. It might help to review WP:CITE and Reliable sources for more info on Wikipedia's position on using blogs references.
 * To clarify, I lived for 19 years in the Richmond area (since 1985-2004), and I still have lots of friends that live in the area that I communicate with quite regularly. So I think I have some idea of some of the nicknames and colloqualisms for the city. I am also aware that there is a significant indie music/punk scene in the city as well, though that is only a fraction of the total demographic of the city (though it might appear to be bigger than it is to someone that's actually inside the punk community). In order for something like this to be notable enough to be included, it needs to spread into the general population A LOT more than just one or two demographics. It should also be something that we would find in actual published sources (newspapers, magazines, etc), and so far, I am unable to find anything of this nature. Dr. Cash 17:20, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I can cite, in the very least, multiple references from Style Weekly over the last few months. At least three that I can remember. Let me get ahold of the sources. Sometimes 11:14, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I have lived in Virginia all my life. I have lived in Richmond since I was in 4th grade and I am turning 30 this year. I have never ever heard Richmond referred to as "Fist City." It doesn't mean it hasn't been called that, but it definitely isn't something I know that is used a lot. And believe me I hear a lot of stuff. I hear Richmond called Metro a lot. Then there is always RIVAH to refer to what side of the James one lives on, be it East, West, South, or North. 9:59 AM EST 29 October 2006

General Nicknames
Municipal symbols
 * Richmond has a number of nicknames including:
 * River City (shared by many other cities with rivers)
 * RVA (based on the state abbreviation for Virginia)
 * RIC (Also the code for Richmond International Airport)
 * Richmond on the James (as contrasted with Richmond-upon-Thames in the United Kingdom
 * The 804 (The area code in which Richmond is entirely contained)see map at this link
 * The Mecca (coined by UVA students, many of whom make "pilgrimages" home here from the college town of Charlottesville, Virginia which is then called Medina)
 * Fist City (derived from "fifth city", as in the fifth state capitol coming north from Florida, in reference to Richmond's violent reputation)

Richmond's nicknames, slogans, and motto can be found in the infobox at the top of the page. As far as the information here, not sure what to make of it, other than basic trivia. As far as nicknames are concerned, in 19 years of living in Richmond, I have never, ever, ever, heard **RIC**, or **804**, be used as a nickname for the city. They are the airport code and area code. Nothing more. **RVA** is really nothing more than an abbreviation. I have never even heard of it being used as a nickname, either. I'm also not sure where the **Mecca**/**Medina** reference came from either, since I've never heard that (and I'm also very familiar with the collegiate environment of the city, having graduated from two schools in Va.) Dr. Cash 05:44, 27 July 2005 (UTC) The "mecca" term originated in Lexington actually and is frequently used by W&L and UVA grads. Like a lot of slang terms, its purpose is to exclude. I wouldn't woory if you've never heard it used.
 * "The 804" and RVA are common... esp. RVA...hence RVA magazine. People have added mecca/medina and RIC over time, and I have never heard them used but don't see that they are obviously incorrect. Even Fist city (see debate above) has become plausible in my mind. Bottom line: I think The 804 and RVA should stay whatever you do for the others. MPS 15:59, 28 July 2005 (UTC)MPS
 * I'm still not really buying the whole "The 804" or "RVA" thing as nicknames. Granted, I have seen "RVA" used, primarily in blogs online and such. But I don't consider its use in blogs to be a true use as a "nickname", which would be a short, clever, cute, derogatory, or otherwise substitute name use to describe a person or place, etc. I consider its use more of an abbreviation, which is common online so that people don't have to type the full name.
 * As far as "The 804" (as well as "RIC") are concerned, they also are used to refer to the city; but not in a "clever" or "cute" or "descriptive" sense. Lots of cities are referred to by their area codes or zip codes, but again, more in an abbreviation sense than in the nickname sense. Plus, there are lots of cities with a) more than one area code and b) more than one airport. The way cell phones and other electronic communication devices are going these days, it probably won't be long until the Richmond metro area gains another zip code (heck, Washington DC Metro has three or four). In the past 20 years, Virginia has gone from having basically two area codes to something like 4-5. Even if "The 804" is being used commonly in various subcultures of the city, I doubt it will stick for the long term.
 * "Fist City" - I think this may have caught on in a particular subculture of the city as well, mainly the rap/hip-hop crowd, but hasn't caught on in the general population. As such, with a limited following, I think it's a bit too POV to be included in an encyclopedia at the present time.
 * Overall, this section, if it is to be included in the article at all, should not be where it was. To conform to existing standards being used by other city articles, it should be incorporated into other sections (such as culture). There is also a spot in the infobox at the top-right for both city slogans and city nicknames. Currently, this includes the "One City, Our City" and "Easy to Love" as city slogans, and "River City" as the city nickname. Dr. Cash 23:25, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I consider RVA, RIC, and "The 804" to be nicknames of Richmond, Virginia. I cannot speak for the uses of area codes or airport codes in other cities, but for Richmond Virginia, these conventions are in popular use. I believe they are notable for Richmond, Virginia, so they should be included somewherein the article. Don't write off conventions because you only see them on the internet. Imagine how that rationale will sound in 50 years. MPS 13:27, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Usage of area codes in Virginia is often used to represent a region. There are no area codes exclusive to one city in Virginia.  About a decade ago there were 2 area codes for Virginia and now there are five.  Recently it has become popular to say what area code you are from, but saying 804 means central Virginia to most (if they don't remember the splits).07:59, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Also I think you confuse POV with non-notablePunks refer to Richmond as Fist City" is a NPOV fact, albeit a non-notable one.


 * I hear the term Fist City used every day, and I am not incredibly connected with any underground punk scene here. If you are in your 20s or 30s and live in The Fan, you refer to Richmond as Fist City. It's almost ubiquitous as far as I'm concerned, since you cannot deny that bar-hopping 20 and 30 year olds are a huge contingent of the Fan District population. I've never heard a single person refer to this as "The 804" and I have lived here for years. In my opinion, either we remove EVERY nickname except for River City, or we should be giving equal weight to the various colloqualisms that the locals who live here actually use! Sometimes 9:36, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I almost missed your post since you didn't put it at the end. I am going be bold and add Fist City Back in. MPS 15:20, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, so I think I've found the right place and terminology for this whole debate. I still don't like calling these "nicknames", as when I think of a true nickname I think more of, "The River City," or something along those lines. But I was looking at the article for Albuquerque, New Mexico, and the had a reference to the term, ABQ, which they called a colloquialism, or an informal expression not used in formal speech or writing. This seems to fit best with what we're trying to accomplish here ... it recognizes that the terms RIC, 804, and RVA, are, in fact, used by varying people to refer to the city. But it also separates it from the true thought of a "nickname," which I still think goes a bit beyond simple abbreviations. As a matter of fact, I think a lot of cities in the US refer to themselves using their area code or airport code (found one reference on the page for Atlanta, Georgia, too). Though area codes might not apply to some of the larger cities as places like Chicago and New York City have several area codes,...

Still don't really like the, "Fist City" nickname. While it may be used, primarily in the African-American and hip-hop circles, I don't think it's found it's way into enough used to really classify as a true nickname yet, so at this time I'd really say that it's probably non-notable. Dr. Cash 22:11, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Sorry this nickname, while certainly a misnomer, is in much more common use than just among, as you say, "African-American and hip-hop circles." Perhaps you are not as in touch as you believe.

What about the nickname "Bitchmond"?

Here is the answer: All of these names are ok, we dont need to be fighting about them. The crazy thing is that someone keeps making the ONLY nickames RIC and 804. The reality is that over the years, the city has had many nicknames or colloqial ways to name it, and we should have a longer list of all of them, without getting into a crazy revert war. The other thing..there is all this info on names on TALK page, but what appears on the regular page are these other names..BrandlandUSA 11:28, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Colloquialisms vs. nicknames
I think we need to distinguish a bit between the term 'nickname' and 'colloquialism'. A nickname, such as River City, is designated by the city or the tourism office to describe the city somewhat favorably and use this in tourism brochures and publications and the promotional campaigns and the like. A colloquialism, on the other hand, is designated by the locals, the population, as a common term for the city. Kind of like shorthand. Examples of this would be RVA, The 804, or RIC.

I thought it should be clarified as I just saw River City added to the opening paragraph under colloquialisms, and thought I should clarify the reversion, since the term is already in the infobox under nicknames. Dr. Cash 04:58, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree, but this is exactly why Fist City should be listed as a nickname. Shall I start a petition to solve this? I'm not sure how many of you guys actually live in Richmond City Proper. Within the city limits, everyone knows that Fist City means. Sometimes 6:59, 07 June 2006 (UTC)

Book references listed?
I just made a stub article for Virginius Dabney. What does anyone think about listing book references about Richmond in addition to internet links? I know I have some other Richmond books around like "At the Falls; Richmond, Virginia and Its People." by Marie Tyler-McGraw. others at this link
 * I think that would be a great idea. Richmond by Virginius is like *the* book about Richmond. --MaxPower 15:24, 2005 Feb 28 (UTC)

DuPont as a Company
I listed DuPont as a significant Richmond employer. There are some issues that arise. DuPont's property is considered part of Richmond, yet they affiliate themselves with Chesterfield. They've (meaning DuPoint corporate) have adopted an attitude with Richmond that "you annex us, and we'll find business elsewhere." (Quoting my dad, longtime DuPont employee). Since they consider themselves part of Chesterfield, but are in Richmond, does this present any issues? ^demon 11:24, March 5, 2005 (UTC)

Thoughts: DuPont is a Richmond-area employer. So is Phillip Morris, about 2 miles away. One is in Chesterfield County, the other in the City of Richmond. Both have many employees who live in the city, the county, and a lot of other places. It all in the wording. Your Dad was correct, The "if you annex us ....." thing goes back a long way. Whether it is still valid may differ. Currently with a moratorium against Richmond annexation suits in place, its not an issue. Vaoverland 17:10, Mar 5, 2005 (UTC)

Culture of Richmond, Virginia
I just started a very large stub article on Culture of Richmond, Virginia as referenced in above conversations. I need y'all's help filling in radio, TV, and news media, as well as any other contribution ideas you may have. The idea for this page came from Culture of San Francisco, California as well as some of the debates we had about where to put information from the main Richmond article. I may migrate some of what's on the Richmond page to the culture page, so be aware of changes in the next month or so. MPS 18:52, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Fran Tarkenton
I'm the one who added the thing about the NFL great. I've known him to be from Richmond. -Amit

Edit under 'Economy'
I remove the specific reference to 'Fortune 500,' because it implies that the companies earlier in the list are all F500, and I don't believe (e.g.) Infineon Technologies to be F500. Similarly, Philip Morris and Genworth Financial aren't 'companies' in the F500 sense (although their parents are). In fact, now that I think about it, I'm gonna remove this remark with its 'prominent' puffery altogether. The Economy section ought to stand on its own (at least after it is alphabetized), and this finesses the question as to whether PM in Henrico County was an "also" or not. Oh, yeah, what I came here to do was add: Universal (UVV) which is NOT a Fortune 500 company. Tribune 05:54, 15 July 2005 (UTC)


 * The Economy section has now been rewritten in prose format, using the list of companies. A few new references have been added here. Dr. Cash 23:05, 27 July 2005 (UTC)


 * That is a strange statement claiming that the "Wall street of Black America" is in Richmond, Virginia. I don't believe that a "Wall Street of Black America" exists.  Richmond, Virginia was in the center of slavery. Someone is inventing some superior hi-jinks. 141.151.183.82 21:51, 12 August 2005 (UTC) 


 * Actually, a Google Search for "Wall Street of Black America" reveals 47 pages which it is mentioned, most sites of course, refer to Richmond. The term is also mentioned on the city's official website and richmond.com. Dr. Cash 03:40, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

RPS
I just added a page called Richmond City Public Schools. Feel free to add to it as you see fit.

Infobox Format
Somehow the InfoBox (top right) was reverted back to its original format (User:Boothy443), without any talk or discussion or even any comments as to why this was done. The Infobox that I reverted back to involves linking to a Template:RichmondInfoBox (which can be edited by going to the actual Template page for the RichmondInfoBox and editing there, as opposed to putting variables in the page directly with links to the city template provided in Wikiproject Cities. While I realize that several major cities (Seattle, Washington, Houston, Texas) use the "variable" template format, I think that format is flawed for several reasons. First, on many pages, it looks absolutely terrible; the image of the downtown skyline is often sized differently than the width of the InfoBox, which just doesn't look professional. Secondly, the text for the motto and the nickname is too small. The size of the text almost looks like it's all subscript/superscript-sized. Why isn't it the same size as the Mayor's name and Area, also on the same infobox?!?! It also makes editing more difficult. In order to add a new category to the infobox, you have to edit the template and create the correct variables, instead of just editing the template simply. The format for the time zone is also incorrect as well. It stated that the time zone for Richmond was "Easter (UTC 5)". In fact, it should "Eastern (UTC-5)". UTC+5 is probably somewhere to the east of Greenwich, England, perhaps Iraq or India? Some of the horizontal lines in that infobox are also different sizes, which I cannot figure out why, but it looks bad? The line directly above the image of Va. and the very bottom line were a bit thicker than the rest of the lines. This makes no sense. Also, the caption for the city skyline picture, in my opinion, really isn't needed because it really doesn't take a lot of brainpower to figure out what it's a picture of, with the city name above and all the info below,...

The Infobox currently used now (Template:RichmondInfoBox, is very similar to the ones used on the Louisville, Kentucky (featured article) and Chicago (featured article candidate) articles. It's also nice because it's a lot easier to customize; if there's specific data that we want to highlight about a particular city, we can add that easily without messing with the templates used for every other city. Dr. Cash 02:01, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

History
The History of Richmond, Virginia article has been cleaned up and rewritten. As a result, I redid the summary in the main Richmond, Virginia article as well. Feel free to modify and fill in any gaps in the history that are present. Dr. Cash 02:21, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Great job but I disagree that we need to eliminate the timeline. I reverted the redirect at Timeline of Richmond, Virginia. MPS 18:31, 5 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I still disagree on the timeline. Having two separate history articles is completely redundant and unnecessary. Plus, there is a serious potential for conflicts to arise if one edits the history page and not the timeline, or vice versa. We need to stick with only one history article. Redirect reinstated. Dr. Cash 20:18, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Category for Richmond Area Roads
I was thinking we need a category for all the roads/highways/expressways that are in Richmond. What do you think? I can't decide. Your thoughts? MPS 14:42, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Category:Richmond Area Roads
 * Category:Richmond, Virginia Area Roads
 * Category:Transportation in Richmond
 * Category:Transportation in Richmond, Virginia
 * Category:Roads and Highways in Richmond, Virginia
 * Category:Roads and Highways in Richmond


 * I would suggest a sub-article Transportation in Richmond, following the hierarchy I used for Transportation in Virginia, which was set forth in WikiProject U.S. states. A matching category would make sense. I am willing to tackle this one, if that would work for the article. Vaoverland 15:24, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Ok TWO NEW CATEGORIES: 
 * Category:Transportation in Richmond, Virginia -- I think Mark Vaoverland is going to do this
 * Category:Music of Richmond, Virginia -- I already added all the punk bands but we need other bands, studios, opera companies, and music acts to be added if they are from richmond and there are wikipedia articles on them.
 * They are subcategoris of Category:Transportation in Virginia and Category:Music of Virginia respectively.
 * There is also a new article Transportation in Richmond, Virginia for Mark Vaoverland to mess with.
 * I chose the name "Richmond, Virginia" (with the comma) for consistency's sake with all the other RVA side articles. MPS 15:40, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
 * CRIKEY! They Afd'd the article. If anyone thinks this article is worth saving, please vote now at Articles for deletion/Transportation in Richmond, Virginia MPS 19:47, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
 * CRIKEY! They Afd'd the article. If anyone thinks this article is worth saving, please vote now at Articles for deletion/Transportation in Richmond, Virginia MPS 19:47, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Wikicities
Should Richmond have one of these? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Seattle MPS 14:09, 17 October 2005 (UTC)


 * It will probably take more than 2 or 3 of us working on articles to make it a Wikiproject for Richmond. Vaoverland 15:18, 17 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Whether we formalize it as a subproject of its own or not, the Richmond work should probably follow WikiProject Cities. I haven't taken time to compare with the hierarchy for state articles, but I will try to do so. Vaoverland 15:32, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

link farm

 * http://www.vcu.edu/graduate/pdfs/beginners_guide.pdf
 * I am tired of these getting added back in . I am ok with them being on the talk page though. MPS 04:28, 20 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Richmond Tacky Light Tour
 * Richmond Discussion Forums
 * Great census information on districts here

RVA high schools
someone on the The West End (Richmond, Virginia) page is adding articles for inidividual schools (freeman, godwin, etc) schools. Isn't there a wikipedia policy against articles for high schools. I was thinking we could add an article similar to Richmond City Public Schools for Chesterfield, Henrico, and Hanover Counties. Would it be better to just add this to the county pages since they're not that developed? Comments? MPS 21:02, 28 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm not exactly sure if there's a specific policy against it, but the general consensus I've seen is that wiki pages for things like high schools and malls are generally non-notable in terms of an encyclopedia and generally discouraged. Lists of elem/mid/high schools on school district pages are acceptable, and if the school is particularly notable (i.e. some famous person graduated from there or the school is really old and had some outstanding program, governor's schools, etc), then a wiki page may be acceptable in that case. But wiki pages for every high school in America are generally not needed. Dr. Cash 23:40, 1 November 2005 (UTC)


 * On a quick glance, WikiProject Schools seems to encourage individual articles when there is enough substance. There is more information at Schools.It is clear that the preferred method is to start with the school district, which wasn't done with the Freeman and Godwin High School articles. I did go in each of those and attempt to clean them up a bit. I'll try to review all of this later tonite if no one else get to it first. Vaoverland 00:55, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
 * The other day I added Chesterfield Public Schools, Petersburg Public Schools, Henrico County Public Schools, Hopewell Public Schools, and Colonial Heights Public Schools. FYI these are called school divisions and not districts. Any GRR schools will be listed (mostly red-linked) within these school division pages. See also List of school divisions in Virginia. MPS 16:03, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Template
I created this template: Template: Greater Richmond Region... and added it to the linked articles. Sort of a rush job but I think it is an excellent navigational aid. MPS 16:03, 14 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I think the template looks a little bit awkward being vertically-oriented and right-justified as it is. Depending on various individual's browser settings, it could cause the box to overflow into the next text section. This information seems like it would be better presented as a box at the bottom of the article, similar to the 'Regions of Virginia' or 'US State Capitals' boxes. Dr. Cash 22:24, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think it would look good at the botom. On the Richmond page, I put the template in the neighborhoods section, but in (for instance) the Amelia County page, the box complements the county box and contextualizes the county/region article as being a county in the Greater Richmond MSA. MPS 01:11, 3 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The region box would look fine in that case if it is directly underneath the city/county infobox. But the city/county infobox should be above the region box. I looked at the Amelia page and it does not look right with the skinny region box above the wider/fatter infobox. The design of the county infobox is also such that it belongs in the top right. I tried moving the region box to below the county/city infobox, but it wanted to put the region box to the left of the city infobox, which looks even worse. If we could place the Richmond Region box directly below the city infobox and county infoboxes, I think it would look much better (either that, or merge the Richmond Region box with the city/county infoboxes). Dr. Cash 04:38, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Crime
We need info on Richmond's crime, a la Crime in Washington, D.C. or somewhere in the article. #5 crime in the country is notable.132.159.147.78 20:10, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Frankly, I think it's fishy that a city which has a reputation for being dangerous (as well as one of Morgan Quitno's redheaded stepchildren) has no information on local crime in its article--134.126.135.146 18:41, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Radio?
Is a list of every radio station (particularly one in paragraph form) really necessary in this article? It seems like somebody looking for information about the city would not be looking for radio stations, and if he or she were, a simple link to another page ("List of Richmond, VA radio stations") ought to suffice. As it stands, that whole segment bogs down the article. Daniel 19:39, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * What about a media in article like Media in Seattle, Media in Chicago, and others in new category I created Category:Regional media. We can leave the most important media like Style and Richmodn magazine, and merge a lot of the media lists into tables and such on a Media in Richmond page. I'll start it in the name of WP:be bold. MPS 02:29, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * An excellent idea. I don't have the time to create the tables, but I'll keep an eye on it and let you know if I think it needs anything else.  Thanks! Daniel 01:53, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

World City/Global City
Someone keeps adding the following information regarding Richmond's supposed "status" as a Global city to the Economy section:

''Law and finance have long been driving forces in the economy. Because of its "GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICE CENTRES" Richmond was named by Globalization and World Cities Study Group & Network (GaWC), as having minimal evidence of being a Global city. ''

I personally don't see how "minimal evidence" (e.g. a minor mention at the very bottom of the GaWC Research Briefing website is notable to the article. Seriously, for a city that's a, "full service world city," or even a, "major world city," maybe it might be worthy of a mention. But minimal evidence? Seriously. This is really stretching it. The only reason this "research" was done was so that city chambers of commerce can include it in their business promotion brochures and the like, and wikipedia is definitely not one of those. Dr. Cash 21:14, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I just now added it back in. Look at it this way. If the article said "Richmond has world class legal services" then somone would come back in and look for a source. Now there is an official source. The section is entitled "Industries that defined Richmond"... surely a legal services sector that is considered "world class" is a notable element of Richmond's industries. Are you doubting that legal and financial services are big industries in Richmond, or are you skeptical of GaWC's survey. I would be ok with the latter but the former is highly supportable and should remain. MPS 21:44, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I just reverted your change. After further review, it is clear to me that the added bit is actually more spam than actual fact. For one, look at the spelling of, "CENTRES" in the text, and considering that it is the common british spelling of the word, as well as the fact that the "GaWC" website he's referring to is in a british TLD, it's clear that the anonymous editor that added this nonsense is trying to promote his "study." Even if you look into the report he's citing, Richmond is listed under, "MINOR GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICE CENTRES." So this thing is really just complete nonsense and junk and does not belong in the article. Dr. Cash 01:29, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Your logic is not logical. Richmond is mentioned in a study on global cities that was conducted by british people in Loughborough University in Loughborough, Leicestershire, England. You have baselessly accused it of being spam. You have accused the British of spelling things funny, and you have ignored my previous assertion that Richmond is in fact a global legal center. ... centre... or however you want to spell it. Please answer this question: Richmond is a global legal center... yes... or no? ' If yes, then the industries section of the Richmond, Virginia article that we are editing needs to have some reflection of how major the legal services are in Richmond, Virginia. If you want to find a different source, then I will, but I need to know what you are disputing, Gawc's legitimacy or Richmond's prowess in the legal industry. I am putting the disputed passage back in because it is verifieable evidence of Richmond's importance in providing global legal services. Note that this study cites other verifiable evidence of Richmond's legal legacy. MPS 17:04, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The "verifiable evidence" that you keep putting back in still is poorly written and, particularly with the capital letters and direct reference to the GaWC in the text, looks a lot like spam to me, instead of a reference. I have rephrased this and moved the part about the Federal Reserve Bank and US District Court to help make the point. Dr. Cash 22:15, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Why is there a template box at the bottom of the article for, "Cities with minimal evidence of world city formation," while if you look at the major 'global cities', none of these cities have a corresponding box? Seems kinda silly here,... Dr. Cash 17:16, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Peer review
I've just nominated this article for peer review. I think we're getting pretty close to FAC, and hopefully the peer review will give us a few guidelines with how to move forward towards that goal. Dr. Cash 22:53, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Civil War Centennial
At Centennial Dome, there's a paragraph about the architecture constructed in the early 1960s. Being an outsider, I don't know whether this would fit better somewhere in the city's article. Eludium-q36 17:33, 9 August 2006 (UTC)