Talk:Rick Warren/Archive 2

Advert notice
I've added the tag at the top. The tone of this article is entirely off. And given that a large part is taken directly from his website, which properly advertises him and his organization, it is inarguably advertising. And that is improper on Wikipedia. Please do not remove the advert tag until the article meets Wikipedia standards. &mdash; Kbh3rd talk 02:25, 30 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I'll respect your wishes for the moment. But let me quote the second paragraph of the current article: At the same time though, Warren has been criticized by many leading Christian pastors and teachers for what they consider to be questionable teachings and practices, such as various tactics for increasing church attendance. Is that really your idea of advertising?
 * That sentence ("At the same time though...") was added AFTER the  tag was put in place.  In other words, it was an incremental attempt to make the article sound less like a blatant advertisement.


 * Please sign your posts on talk pages even if not logged in.


 * It could also be an attempt to address the issues. Has it done so, do you think? If so, let's remove the notice. If not, what more needs to be done? Andrewa 19:43, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I think that these edits have helped, but that more work needs to be done-- especially with regard to the "PEACE Plan" section. 207.166.216.49


 * Can you be more specific? I appreciate that sometimes it's hard to know exactly how to improve an article, while still being quite sure it needs improvement. So let's put our heads together. What is it about this section that you don't like? Andrewa 11:49, 29 January 2006 (UTC)


 * (There is a problem with quoting many leading Christian pastors and teachers like this in that it's hearsay, and again we should be more specific. But let's deal with the POV and copyvio allegations first.)


 * You have a point there. The various external links do corroborate the fact that many leading pastors and teachers object to Warren's teachings, though.


 * So, how should it read? Andrewa 19:43, 23 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it would also be true that many pastors, leading and otherwise, support his teachings. The many churches participating in the Purpose Driven programs worldwide support this view, which is not incompatible with the other. It just means he's controversial. I think that is agreed! Andrewa 00:18, 24 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, I think it's agreed. However, since the article emphasizes that Warren is popular, that thousands of churches follow his lead, and that he commands a huge "Purpose Driven Network," I think it would be redundant to say that many pastors support Rick Warren's views.  Since the article stresses both his popularity and the controversy of his teachings, I think it's on its way to becoming fairly well-balanced.


 * I do agree that the external links are sufficient to corroborate the criticisms against Warren, but if someone can phrase that more elegantly, that might be nice, too. 207.166.216.49


 * So, what else needs to happen before you'd be happy to remove the notice? Andrewa 20:07, 24 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Please, as with your copyvio allegations above, you need to be more specific. Otherwise, I think the notice should be removed. It's just your opinion, and as such it doesn't belong in the article namespace, any more than any other POV does. Andrewa 17:51, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I intend to remove the notice as part of a larger refactor. To have it on an article that consists largely of links to the subject's critics is quite bizarre, and holds Wikipedia up to ridicule. All it proves is that some people don't like Rick Warren. I think we knew that! Andrewa 23:18, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Busted link
http://www.time.com/time/subscriber/2005/time100/scientists/100warren.html only works for Time subscribers, so I've removed it from the image caption. Ackowlwdgements etc should be on the image page in any case, not in the caption. Andrewa 20:02, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Merge proposals
There are currently at least two, from P.E.A.C.E. Plan and Purpose Driven. However this article is already two long, and no reasons seem to have been given for the merges. Unless some are forthcoming, I propose to remove both notices. See the talk pages for the affected articles. Andrewa 23:14, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Refactor
If you want to help, a little research into his biography would seem to be long overdue! Andrewa 06:05, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

The biography is still a stub. Most of the rest is done. The copyvios, always borderline IMO, are attended to. The claim it read like an advertisement was already a little bizarre, when more than half of the article was criticism!

I have left most of the criticism in place. The section on criticism still needs a complete rewrite, but at least it's all collected together now. Warren is notable, and does have his critics, but it's not appropriate to give them equal (or better) time in the introduction to an article on Warren.

The extensive external links to Warren's critics have been moved to a more appropriate place. Most of them should probably go in the long term, but I feel disinclined to remove any criticism myself, as I'm confident that whoever does so will be accused of being POV towards Warren. Safer to leave it there and let readers make up their own minds, at least until the dust clears a bit. Then delete all the unencyclopedic stuff, without mercy, including the blatant plug for the anti-Warren book just published, unless it sells particularly well. Andrewa 12:32, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

(And that was my intention. But then I became aware of an AfD discussion of similar material, see below. Andrewa 06:01, 7 February 2006 (UTC))

Critiques
Assuming the result of Articles for deletion/Critiques of The Purpose Driven Life is to delete that list of links to anti-Warren material, I will then also delete the similar material from this article. Andrewa 00:19, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Done. The result was delete, a strong consensus and no suggestion of a merge. This is a clear indication IMO that this material is not considered encyclopedic.


 * I believe it would be appropriate to add a few links to the most notable critics and criticisms. Comments welcome as to which ones these are. Andrewa 05:53, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Here are the critiques that were on the front page. There has to be SOMETHING worthwhile in this pile of hypertext. JDoorj a m    Talk 13:21, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Audio resources

 * Redefining Christianity: Understanding the Purpose Driven Movement by Rev. Bob DeWaay Pastor of Twin City Fellowship in Minneapolis, Minnesota


 * Rick Warren's "Purpose Driven" philosophy was examined from several angles.


 * A local church often takes on the Purpose Driven mold after a pastor expresses his "vision" (not God's vision) for the church, gains the support of leaders in the church, and finally announces it to the congregation, with the expectation that all will embrace the "vision". Those who do not agree with the changes, are characterized as opposing God's vision, and asked to leave.


 * In a way each church becomes a franchise, (like McDonalds), where standardized methods, preaching, etc. are introduced, and only those who agree can stay. But, like McDonalds, the menu is pared down to a few attractive messages, while hard biblical truths are ignored.


 * Issues, Etc. Sunday, January 8 KFUO Host:  Todd Wilken Hour 1 WMA Hour 1 MP3 Hour 2 WMA Hour 2 MP3 "Rick Warren's '40 Days of Community'" Chris Rosebrough Extreme Theology.com
 * "The Fad Driven Church" part 1 WMA KFUO Host: Rev Todd Wilken guest Rev. Greg Alms Redeemer Lutheran Church Catawba, NC MP3
 * "The Fad Driven Church" part 2 WMA KFUO Host: Rev Todd Wilken guest Rev. Greg Alms Redeemer Lutheran Church Catawba, NCMP3
 * Purpose Driven Methods: Exposed On WVCY Radio
 * Who's Driving the Purpose Driven Church? Host: Vic Eliason Guest: James Sundquist. James Sundquist is the author of the book Who's Driving the Purpose Driven Church? Some people are feeling disenfranchised from their churches because of dramatic changes taking place in the name of relevance. One of the most popular thrusts in the current relevance movement is the model set forth by the book The Purpose Driven Church by Rick Warren. Jim mentions examples from his book of people that have been driven out of their church for questioning this phenomenon. Listeners also respond with testimonies of similar experiences.

Articles and Essays

 * Driven or Led? Notice the difference between being "driven" and being "led"
 * Rick Warren Promotes Another Contemplative Book In the January 18, 2006 issue of Rick Warren's weekly e-newsletter, in the Ministry Library Section, Warren recommends a book called Serious Times by James Emery White. The book is filled with contemplative references including numerous mentions of Thomas Merton, Richard Foster, the desert fathers and so on. The author encourages the use of lectio divina (see our feature article) and the silence to enhance our spiritual lives.
 * Rick Warren Promotes Contemplative Prayer
 * Bible Presbyterian Church Resolution 69:13 Whose Purpose?: Rick Warren's "Purpose Driven" Paradigm for the Church. The 69th General Synod of the Bible Presbyterian Church, meeting from August 4-9, 2005, at Olympia, Washington, urges our congregations and all believers of whatever denomination to fiercely repudiate and expose the egregious error espoused by Rick Warren and other proponents of the so-called “purpose-driven” paradigm of Church growth. We call upon Mr. Warren to repent of his heretical teachings. We are resolved to stand firm against this perversion of Biblical Christianity, and guard against its insidious intrusion into the lives of our churches.
 * The Gospel According to Rick Warren
 * Warren to buy Saints, build Purpose-Driven Field Lark News.com
 * The Gospel According to Warren July 2005 - Volume 11, Issue 7
 * Rick Warren: Ladies Home Journal: Love Yourself! In Rick Warren's article of the March 2005 Ladies home Journal I have never seen such anti-Christian and unbiblical advice coming from a pastor--let alone a "pastor" to pastors which Rick Warren is. Here is a sampling of this very unbiblical and harmful advice that is given to unbelievers: "Learn To Love Yourself! Self-esteem still wobbly after all these years?  These five simple truths will show you that you don't need to be perfect to be priceless....Accept yourself...God accepts us unconditionally (Remember he's talking to unbelievers)...Love yourself...Be true to yourself...Forgive yourself.  God doesn't expect perfection, but he does insist on honesty...Believe in yourself...You can believe what others say about you, or you can believe in yourself as does God, who says you are truly acceptable, lovable, valuable and capable," Ladies Home Journal March 2005, page 36.
 * RICK WARREN'S GLOBAL P.E.A.C.E. PLAN vs. SCRIPTURAL TEACHINGS ON PEACE BY JAMES SUNDQUIST
 * So What's Next
 * Ok, then, I'm a Fundamentalist ~ The Enemy of the 21st Century and the New Church Order By Scott MacIntyre
 * Well, This Doesn't Help by Dr. R. Albert Mohler, Jr., President of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
 * Rick Warren Predicts Christian Fundamentalism To Be Enemy of 21st Century!
 * The Reinvention of Rick Warren (Monday, January 09, 2006)
 * Rick Warren: Churches Can't Succeed without Government
 * Rick Warren’s Comments on Good Morning America go under the Radar "I was surprised to see that no one to my knowledge blogged, or was even aware of, what Rick Warren said on Good Morning America on September 7th concerning God and Katrina. This may be understandable being that there was only one source that I was aware of to find his comments, not to mention that one had to purchase the transcript to read it. Indeed, there were blogs in the past week that commented on some fluffy comments he made on Katrina from his website and sermons, but no commentary on the September 7th Good Morning America appearance."
 * Seeker Sensitive, Purpose Driven Churches - According to the recent Business Week set of essays explaining the business models of the mega-churches in the seeker/church growth movement, the church in America is not growing overall. In fact the overall growth of evangelicalism in the US is flat. So what is all the talk about God doing a magnificent work or revival in America, especially as boasted by many of the Rick Warren clones? The reason is similar to when a Home Depot or Wal-Mart moves into a small town. All your needs can be met in one place so the mom and pop shops close up. The same kind of market driven philosophy is taking place in the church.
 * The Person of Christ Driven Life: A Purpose for a Person
 * Biblically Speaking Essays on the Church Growth Movement - Further essays that critique the teachings of the Purpose Driven/Seeker Sensitive movements
 * Spirit-Led or Purpose-Driven?
 * Earthly Empires - How evangelical churches are borrowing from the business playbook
 * 'Purpose Driven® Madness
 * Rick Warren: Three Primary Concerns
 * Saddleback Attempts a Balancing Act Between Predestination and Free Will, and ends up embracing "Evangelical Deism" and the Ancient Heresy of "Dualism."
 * Book PREview - Redefining Christianity Redefining Christianity is a book that has much to say on the topics of Rick Warren, the Purpose Driven® Life and other aspects of the Purpose Driven paradigm.
 * Faulty Premises of the Church Growth Movement Issue 89 - July/August 2005 by Bob DeWaay
 * The Purpose Driven Life – Guidance or Misguided? Reasons Not to Join the 'Purpose Driven' Life' Movement by Marshall C. St. John
 * The Purpose Driven Life: An Assessment
 * Rick Warren: the quintessential evangelical...
 * Dealing with Resisters
 * Highly Questionable Methods by Robert Reymond
 * The Gospel According to Warren by Gary E. Gilley, Pastor-Teacher Southern View Chapel - Springfield, IL No one has exemplified the market-driven approach better than Rick Warren, pastor of the huge Saddleback Church in southern California and author of The Purpose-Driven Church and The Purpose-Driven Life. While Warren is open and up-front about his philosophy, strategy and methods, nevertheless things are not always as they appear. For example, “purpose-driven” sounds better than “market-driven” but it is basically the same thing. In his book The Purpose-Driven Life, his opening statement is, “It is not about you,” then turns around and writes a whole book about “you.” He belittles pop-psychology then repeatedly promotes it by simply calling it something else. He publicly cuts ties with Robert Schuller, then regurgitates some of the most odious things that Schuller has been teaching for thirty years. He claims commitment to the Scriptures then undermines them at almost every turn. He will tell his followers that he is not tampering with the message but only reengineering the methods, when in fact he has so altered the message as to make it all but unrecognizable.
 * The Gospel: A Method or a Message? How The Purpose Driven® Life' Obscures the Gospel by Bob DeWaay - " Warren’s man-centered theology comes with more evangelical ideas than does Schuller’s. Warren includes many more Biblical truths than Schuller ever did. In my opinion this makes Warren more deceptive than Schuller. Schuller ignored the Bible and depended on psychological concepts. Warren uses perverted Bible translations that change God-centered passages to man-centered passages. By carefully selecting the right mistranslation for each of his teaching points he has made the man-centered theology touted by Schuller seem Biblical. "
 * An Examination of Rick Warren’s Teaching on “Exponential Growth” by Brian Jonson " The video on exponential growth, presented by Warren, is one of the most shocking teachings I have ever seen emerge from a Southern Baptist. Our denomination is considered conservative and thoroughly Bible-based. When a minister in the SBC presents philosophies or doctrines that are contrary to scripture, he must be rebuked. This is true of the pastor of the smallest congregation as well as the largest. The fact that Saddleback Church is the largest in our movement makes this action so much more urgent. "
 * The Adulation of Man in the The Purpose Driven® Life Part 1 By Richard Bennett
 * The Purpose Driven® Life: Demeaning the Very Nature of God Part 2 By Richard Bennett
 * 15 Principal Errors of “The Purpose-Driven Life” by Stephen Weir Reasons For This Paper As manager of a conservative evangelical Christian literature service I am being asked with increasing frequency by concerned customers for information about Rick Warren’s best-seller of over 20 million copies, “The Purpose-Driven Life” (Zondervan, 2002). There are also believers personally known to me asking for similar information. Many good papers have already been written, to which this is intended to be a useful supplement. Because so many believers and churches are being affected, and because PDL contains so much harmful, dangerous false teaching, I have sought the Lord’s help to set out clearly and systematically, in a single paper, the basic objections and dangers I have found in this book.
 * The Purpose Driven® Life – Guidance or Misguided? Reasons Not to Join the Purpose Driven® Life Movement by Marshall C. St. John
 * The Purpose-Driven® Life: An Evaluation Part I & Part II by Southern View Chapel "Once we believe we have the right to change the meaning of God's Word to suit our agenda, there is no limit as to how far the misrepresentation of God's truth can go. This is exactly how virtually every cult and heresy is started."
 * The Purpose Driven Church (a critique) Michael J. Penfold
 * The Purpose Driven® Church and Life - Review of The Purpose Driven® Life referencing the NewsNight with Aaron Brown discussion of Rick Warren and Purpose Driven® related controversy. Site includes • A STATEMENT FROM GRACE TO YOU: John MacArthur on CNN's NewsNight with Aaron Brown, book reviews, reader comments and links to other websites.
 * The Purpose-Driven Church by Nathan Busenitz
 * The Purpose Driven Life - Readers' Reviews The Purpose Driven Life - Readers' Reviews
 * Purpose Driven Life - Book Review By Nathan Busenitz
 * A Purpose Driven Life – God’s Plan for you? by Stuart L Brogden
 * Rick Warren’s Purpose-Driven Life: A Seriously Flawed View of God by Michael Stohlmeyer
 * Church Growth Gone Mad A sobering look at the church growth seeker-sensitive models by Clay Miller
 * Programs, Get Your Programs: Exposing the Flaws of a Fad-Driven Church by Phil Johnson Executive Director Grace To You
 * The Gospel According to Hybels & Warren (By Nathan Busenitz)
 * Analysis Of the Book Purpose Driven ® Life by Rick Warren By Merv Tucker
 * Purpose Driven Ecumenism? By Roger Oakland
 * Book Review - Rick Warren's The Purpose Driven Life
 * Rick Warren - The Purpose Driven Life
 * 40 Days of Community by Challies.com September 21, 2004 - Make sure you read the commentary at the end of the explanation
 * Blurring of Lines & Shame For The Gospel
 * Purpose, PEACE And New Spirituality
 * The Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren: Part 1 by James Sundquist False Teachings, False Teachers, and Contradictions in Rick Warren's Purpose Driven Life Book and Program Part 2 Part 3 Part 4
 * A Purpose Plea to Pastors By Todd Friel
 * Purpose-Driven or Forgiveness-Given? by Todd Wilken
 * The Fad-Driven Church by Todd Wilken
 * Broadcast Transcript Issues, Etc. with Radio Host Todd WilkenDiscussion: The Purpose Driven Life Guests: Professor Larry Rast, Pastor Wil Weedon, and Pastor Tom Baker Date: October 29, 2003
 * 40 Days of Community - Initial Thoughts Chris Rosebrough Extreme Theology.com
 * 40 Days of Community - Critique Preface Chris Rosebrough Extreme Theology.com
 * 40 Days of Community = 100% Law, 0% Gospel by Chris Rosebrough Extreme Theology.com
 * 40 Days Absurdity by Chris Rosebrough Extreme Theology.com
 * Warren’s Interview on Beliefnet.com by Chris Rosebrough Extreme Theology.com
 * What's Extreme Theology The blog's author, Chris Rosebrough, has a degree in Religious Studies and Biblical Languages from Concordia University, Irvine and currently teaches at Capo Valley Church in San Juan Capistrano, California.
 * Rick Warren Connections - Especially to the Ecumenical Third Wave New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) and "Positive Thinking" Movement compiled by Sandy Simpson
 * Warren-Driven or Bible-Obedient? by Sandy Simpson, 11/2/05
 * Another 40 Days of Destruction and Division Here's another sad email from someone with a testimony similar to my own. The last line of the email sums it up: "Our church has been destroyed by the Purpose Driven Life program, and the pastor just doesn't care!".

A Berean's Discernment Tool for The Purpose Driven Life

 * CRITICALISSUES commentary

A Critique of Rick Warren's P.E.A.C.E. Plan & UN Goals

 * The Emerging Global 'Church'
 * Equipping Leaders to 'Lead like Jesus'?
 * Whom do we serve?

Pyromarketing
In 2005, Zondervan senior marketing editor Greg Stielstra published Pyromarketing, which in part described how The Purpose Driven Life was marketed. This led to a dispute with Rick Warren, who felt that it was inappropriate to associate the success of his book with marketing, rather than with spiritual explanations.
 * Pyromarketing and The Purpose Driven Life by Tim Challies
 * Purposeful Interference July 25, 2005
 * Purposeful Interference - An Update September 15, 2005
 * Pyromarketing God of Small Things

Books

 * Bob Dewaay: Redefining Christianity - Understanding the Purpose Driven Movement; 21st Century Press.

Excerpt: ''Jesus said, "If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you" (John 15:19). Not even the greatest marketing genius can change this without redefining the church. Seeking the approval of the world is precisely what the Purpose Driven movement is all about.''

Weasel Words
A tag claiming that the article contains weasel words was added more than twelve hours ago, with no details yet given. I have removed it pending these details being provided. See also User talk:64.228.93.146. Andrewa 18:07, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

AHA! Found one, and I have removed it (as anyone else could have). The status of this claim has been discussed at length above. It is readily verifiable. I'd also question whether the word purportedly belongs in a Wikipedia article at all (unless in a quotation, say). It sounds inherently POV to me. Andrewa 23:56, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Clean Up
I added a clean up tag due to the overall untidy first impression the article gives. The first list does not do well for delivering relevant information clearly nor aesthetically. It should either be reformatted or replaced elsewhere within the article. Also (unrelated to clean up concerns) an updated photograph of Warren would probably do the article justice as well. I barely recognized the old goatee look. --Davidkazuhiro 10:10, 15 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmmm, I'm not sure just which quality standard you think this violates. The article seems to satisfy Lead section as is. Can you be more specific?


 * Is it perhaps just that you don't like bulleted lists? These are very hard to format in such a way that they look tidy on all platforms, especially when an image is also involved. Andrewa 06:13, 30 April 2006 (UTC)


 * It looks a lot better now. It was the fact that the first "paragraph" started off with a bullet list. For one it didn't really fit the wikipedia guidelines for biographies and two it didn't look very pretty at all. It's looking better now though. Thanks guys. Davidkazuhiro 17:33, 31 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Agree that it looks prettier now. To me the unexplained cleanup tag was far ugglier than the bulleted list. Maybe a matter of taste.


 * Anyone have a better image of Warren? Tnis attracted some comment before. To me this is still the uggliest thing about the article! Perhaps the guidelines for biographies don't do into this sort of detail, but surely we can get a more encyclopedia-style photo than that! I'd keep the one we have as well, it's informative IMO but is hardly a conventional portrait. Andrewa 19:34, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Wrong link
A link in the critique section does not relate to the narrative. The link is supposed to relate to Azusa Street Revivals, but the only mention of Warren was a comment he made regarding the Schiavo situation. It seems to me the narrative critque should be removed if it cannot be supported with a link. The link should be removed unless it relates to the narrative. RonCram 08:13, 4 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I've fixed the link (I think). Though to be honest, I'm not if the Azusa Street centenary is worth mentioning at all. Better to have the more general criticism: that he has been criticised for appearing to endorse preachers of (allegedly) questionable doctrine. Rocksong 07:30, 10 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I wonder if there has ever been a preacher who was not criticised by anyone for questionable doctrine? Jesus himself was often the subject of such criticism. As an occasional preacher myself, I suspect that the only effective defence against such charges is not to say anything anyone cares about. But I haven't been tempted to try this and find out!


 * Perhaps we need to be explicit in WP:NOT that denigrating someone is actually promotion of this negative viewpoint in terms of Wikipedia policy. But IMO it will not help if we are. No matter how explicit we are, some of those with strong POVs will always regard WP:NPOV as something that shouldn't be allowed to hinder their own particular cause.


 * Yes, I'm a fan of Warren. I found his Forty Days of Purpose very helpful. I hope I don't let this POV affect my edits to this article. But NPOV is often a struggle when the subject is one you care about, and we don't want to prohibit people from editing in their areas of interest. Andrewa 18:25, 11 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I think the point which deserves mention is that Warren has been more inclusive than most, and that has attracted some criticism. It seems he has been happy to share the podium with ecumenicals, as well as the more extreme Pentecostals, when traditionally Protestants usually have not. Regarding NPOV: Wikipedia's job is not to criticise, but to note criticism, where it comes from significant groups. That said, on the internet it is sometimes hard to tell what a significant group is. e.g. the group cited which criticised him over his appearance at Azusa Street, was that a significant ministry or a web page run from some guy's garage? I honestly don't know. Rocksong 00:07, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Conservative?
I'm removing Warren from Category:Conservatives_who_believe_Global_warming_is_caused_by_humans. While he is certainly theologically conservative, and a conservative on "moral" issues such as a abortion, I don't think he qualifies as "conservative" as the word is normally, used, i.e. a political conservative; and not a "conservative" in the context of attitudes to global warming. The "Bible Q&A" at http://www.saddlebackfamily.com says ''64: What is Saddleback's position on Political and Foreign Policies? Answer: We have many different opinions at Saddleback. Because these issues are not in the Bible, they are not preached on. We do talk about moral issues.'' Rocksong 05:22, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Somebody put it back. IMO, we should remove it from now, and discuss here. Altought I agree with Rocksong that Rick is not exactly a conservative, I see no problem in labelling him as it. Labels are never accurate, and I think "conservative" fits Rick better than "liberal". --FernandoAires 19:18, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Well he's conservative on some but apparently non-committal on others. When I think of American conservatives I don't only think of abortion and homosexual marriage (which Warren opposes) but also gun rights, big military spending and tax cuts, issues on which Warren hasn't stated a public opinion, as far as I know. The context for the Category is attitudes to global warming, and on that Warren's attitude is (IMO) unsurprising and not worthy of note. Rocksong 00:02, 14 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I was thinking, and I'm starting to understand your point. I keep thinking conservative fits him better, but people will look at it and understand more than "oh, he looks like more 'conservative' than 'liberal'". And, actually, I don't see the point of having such a specific category. But that's another issue, and should not be discussed here (AFAI understand the WP culture).
 * Maybe this controversy about his label should be cited somewhere in the article. --FernandoAires 05:50, 15 August 2006 (UTC)