Talk:Rickey Henderson

No Mention of Sophie Kurys
In the Legacy section, when discussing how he became the greatest base-stealer in "the history of the sport", the article concentrates on Henderson's passing Brock's record. The problem being, to have become the greatest base-stealer in the history of the sport, he would have had to break Kurys's record, not Brock's. Now, granted, Henderson did just that in 1994, but shouldn't Wikipedia acknowledge that it was Kurys, who still holds the single-season stolen base record at 201 (71 more than Henderson's career high 130 stolen bases in a single season)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.188.178.14 (talk) 20:43, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Introduction - dates
I disagree with your edits, 208, where you remove the HOF dates. Without them, a reader will be confused: when was he inducted? The answer is that he has not been. I think you have to leave both dates (announcement and ceremony date) until he is actually inducted. After that, no date will be needed at all; it will be accurate enough to just say "a hall of famer".

Oh, and I'm still waiting for someone to edit the MLB player template so the infobox can accurately state "Future Member" of the hall. Timneu22 (talk) 11:02, 13 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Okay by me. I was just trying to clear the intro of material that's predestined for deletion.  I'm not convinced that the technical difference between election and induction is a point worthy of the first paragraph of a biographical article, but it's certainly not worth squabbling about.208.120.7.152 (talk) 12:56, 13 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Perhaps it's just better to say "he will be inducted on july 26" and the election date isn't necessary? (I made this change.) Timneu22 (talk) 13:03, 13 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Your wording is even better. Ditto for the MVP move.208.120.7.152 (talk) 04:16, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

GOAL
We should make a goal of having this be a featured article on July 26 (induction day), just like Washington, D.C is appropriately the featured article today (Inauguration Day). Could we get some review/feedback to see exactly what is needed and/or what this article is lacking? Timneu22 (talk) 12:53, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree. These are the reasons it was turned down in July of 2007: Featured article candidates/Rickey Henderson/archive1.  &mdash; Mattisse  (Talk) 14:39, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Note that the candidate article you cite is before it was a "good article". It's like comparing night and day. We should get another independent look at it now; it is far different. Timneu22 (talk) 16:09, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

FA fail
I didn't expect FA, but I did expect good feedback. For those of you willing to help, here's the list: Timneu22 (talk) 12:26, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Illeism, malapropism and anecdotes contradicts itself?
How does the section "Illeism, malapropism and anecdotes" contradict itself? I assume that it's not just that Henderson contradicts himself but that the article itself contradicts itself.Greedyhalibut (talk) 17:32, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * See this edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rickey_Henderson&diff=273887186&oldid=273866932. Timneu22 (talk) 13:55, 30 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Fixed - Needed to show that there were 2 different accounts: Verduci's and Henderson's.Greedyhalibut (talk) 14:37, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Position
It's always been my opinion that the infobox was supposed to offer an overview of a baseball playe's career; detail is left for the article. Rickey Henderson's infobox shows him as a Left fielder. He was the everyday starting center fielder when he was with the Yankees, and he played enough of the other two outfield positions to make the title "Left fielder" inaccurrate for him. "Outfielder" is the best, most accurate title for him. I've changed the infoboxes to reflect my opinion, however, it was undone by an argumentative editor wanting to war with me.--Johnny Spasm (talk) 16:50, 5 August 2009 (UTC)


 * First, don't be such a jerk. I was argumentative? Trying to war with you? Hardly. Check the facts. Further, here is the information where the games played stats are listed (2,423 career games in left, and 404 in center or right). I actually don't care one way or another, I just know that the article already had this discussion and "left fielder" seemed the most appropriate. Timneu22 (talk) 20:32, 5 August 2009 (UTC)


 * It is common for those of us who grew up as New York Yankees fans to believe that ballplayers' careers start and end in pinstripes, evidence to the contrary notwithstanding. Although I see from the link provided above that this has been discussed, I don't see a reference for the number of games played at each position. Perhaps if we could find that and properly cite it, that would be sufficient to put the matter to rest? Frank  |  talk  20:44, 5 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Jerk? Me? I seem to recall that you, Bugs & Yankees10 were the ones issuing warnings on my talk page. As if your opinion matters more than mine. You make it sound as if "Outfielder" is inaccurrate. I believe that 400+ games in the other outfield positions is enough to show him as an "Outfielder" in his infobox, regardless of his team (by the way, Frank, I'm a Mets fan). "Left fielder" is incomplete.--Johnny Spasm (talk) 20:54, 5 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, there goes my attempt at lightening up the conversation. (As a side note, I have outgrown my own blind allegiance to the Yankees.) Seriously, though: If we have cites for number of games played, don't you think that 85% at left field is enough to call him a left fielder? Frank  |  talk  21:18, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Also, I would add that there is no consensus shown on this talk page to make the change from "left fielder" to "outfielder". It would be best to discuss it here and achieve consensus rather than risk running afoul of WP:3RR or WP:EDITWAR. Frank |  talk  21:35, 5 August 2009 (UTC)


 * No ill will toward you, Frank, I know what you were trying to do. Regardless, you make a valid point, whether or not you intended to. Even though he spent more time with the A's, Reggie Jackson chose to wear a Yankees hat on his Hall of fame plaque. Why do you suppose that is? The Yankees ARE the most popular team in the history of all professional sports (not an issue I care to debate), and a lot of people out there remember ballplayers by what he did with the Yankees. That argument aside, calling him an outfielder is an accurrate term regardless of whether or not 15% of them in a position other than left is enough to warrant distinction in anyone's mind. Limiting him to "Left fielder" is just wrong to me.--Johnny Spasm (talk) 22:03, 5 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Johnny, why are you trying to be a jerk. I didn't issue you a warning. You're making more of this than actually exists; it's ridiculous. I just told you that the issue was already discussed here and that "outfielder" wasn't the decision. I'm not going to revert your stupid edit because someone else will. Rickey played 15% of his games outside of left field. The argument on the archive says that "Pujols played that many at third base, but no one calls him an 'infielder'". Rickey was a DH a couple times. Should we make the position "Outfielder/DH"? Come on. Timneu22 (talk) 22:11, 5 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Timneu22 - you're not doing much to build consensus here, either. Sorry if I sound like I'm just casting stones here, but really the issue here is the article, not any one editor's opinion being right or wrong. We need to achieve a consensus. I'm trying to help this along here, and to be fair to Johnny, I admit I'm agreeing much more with "left fielder" than not, but your approach isn't helping. The "discussion" you mention is just someone repeating the same stuff; there's no citation and there doesn't seem to have been any consensus one way or the other. Also - keep in mind that WP:CONSENSUS can change. I'm not saying it has here, but it's simply not within policy to say "leave it alone, we discussed it before and you're wrong". Again - I pretty much agree with your position, but I also pretty much disagree with the approach you're taking. Let's look around for supporting citations and go from there. There's no need for anyone to attack anyone else. Frank  |  talk  22:21, 5 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Frank, I have stated &mdash; and it is true &mdash; that I really don't care one way or another. My approach that "isn't helping" is in direct response to Johnny, who has attacked me from the start, even though none of his accusations is true. Can't we all just grow up? I don't care one way or another, but Johnny shouldn't change without concensus. And he should stop blaming me for things I haven't done. Timneu22 (talk) 22:42, 5 August 2009 (UTC)


 * It's cool; just trying to establish consensus. Someone coming into this from the outside might not care to look for who started what; your previous edit summary was a bit provocative too. But as you say: let's all grow up and move the article forward, which is what it's all about. Hopefully Johnny agrees and we can put the bickering aside. Frank  |  talk  23:47, 5 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Johnny - I think you're right; the Yankees/Reggie point is useful in this discussion. I understand what you're saying about the Yanks, and in Reggie's case, I think it was because he was known as Mr. October, largely because of his Yankees performance. (On that note, remember the Mets' Dave Kingman, around the same time?) Anyway, as you note, a player can choose which team to represent, and in fact some choose no insignia when they are enshrined. Henderson appears to have chosen Oakland. But on to the position...on another page on the Hall of Fame web site, he is definitely described as a left fielder: Henderson and Rice are the first left fielders elected to the Hall of Fame in 20 years. In addition, we have Hall's drought in left ends with Rickey, Rice. Now, amazingly, there is no page yet for Henderson on the site, but it seems pretty universal that he is referred to as a left fielder by those that write about the sport and those who voted him in. Shouldn't that be sufficient for the infobox? We could then mention in the text that he played other positions too, including "a significant stint at...." Frank  |  talk  22:32, 5 August 2009 (UTC)


 * First off, mad props to the guy who added the picture of Rickey in a Mets uniform. Second, I would like to point out that in ALL cases for hall of famers, the hall of fame website lists one position as the player's primary position and one team as his primary team. Paul Molitor is listed as a Milwaukee Brewer and a DH. I think we can all agree that's wrong. Rickey's primary position was left fielder. If we use the position a player is inducted into the hall of fame as the measure of what is written in a player's infobox, then there are a lot of articles out there that need reediting. Babe Ruth's says right fielder; Willie Stargell's says left fielder; Carl Yaz's says left fielder. In all cases they were the player's "primary" position. I really hope no one agrees with doing that. I still say the infobox should say "Outfielder."--Johnny Spasm (talk) 12:06, 6 August 2009 (UTC)


 * 15 of 21 seasons in Milwaukee seems right to me for Paul Molitor; what would you prefer? Catfish Hunter did not pick a primary team; they may have assigned him one, but the plaque itself does not have any specific team's insignia on the cap and he didn't wear a specific team's cap at his induction. Besides, we're talking about Henderson here. We're not trying to rewrite the entire encyclopedia. "Left fielder" is more specific than "outfielder", and he played 85% of his games there (pending citations in reliable sources). It does seem to fit pretty well. Maybe we need a wider audience or a WP:30 on the matter. Frank  |  talk  12:39, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The point I was making is that there seemed to be a level of contradiction with Molitor; he was primarily an infielder with the Brewers. He became a hall of fame DH with the Twins. Either way, we've all passed 4th grade math (I assume) and know what sets and subsets are. Left fielders are outfielders, but not all outfielders are left fielders. I believe that Rickey played enough center that the correct title for him would be "Outfielder." I'd like to also point out that I started a similar debate on Babe Ruth's site, and "Outfielder" seems to be the the concensus there.--Johnny Spasm (talk) 14:22, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't see that discussion at Talk:Babe Ruth, not that it is overly important. Keep in mind that we are discussing Henderson here, not the entirety of the members of the Hall of Fame. That discussion - if it needs to be had at all - would certainly be elsewhere. Here on this page, there doesn't seem to be any consensus at all...just two opposing viewpoints. Regarding your opinion that Henderson played "enough center" - can you quantify your concept of "enough"? And can you provide any citations that refer to him as other than a left fielder? That would certainly be helpful, and, after all, WP:V and WP:CITE are of paramount importance. Frank  |  talk  23:45, 6 August 2009 (UTC)


 * My mistake, the Ruth discussion is at mets=y|halloffame=yes|halloffame-importance=|bluejays=yes.--Johnny Spasm (talk) 11:52, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Stats?
Obviously, his stats are available elsewhere, but... I have a tough time imagining a comprehensive encyclopedia article on any baseball player without a table including that player's career stats. When the player in question is Rickey Henderson... O_o

I looked through the archive, and I see some talk about the lead, but nothing directly on point about his career stats. I'm not seriously the first person to mention that his stats are missing, am I? Aren't some of you editors baseball fans?!? — V = IR (Talk&thinsp;•&thinsp;Contribs) 05:00, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I generally cite WP:NOT as a reason to not include stats charts on wikipedia. I Think other articles that do it are wrong. My two cents. Timneu22 (talk) 10:24, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Generally speaking, I'd probably agree with that. We're talking about baseball here though. Baseball ! I mean... I'm trying to keep the hyperbole to a bare minimum here, but seriously... how can anyone defend comprehensive baseball coverage that excludes stats? — V = IR (Talk&thinsp;&bull;&thinsp;Contribs) 21:56, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Linking practice needs a lift
Please note that the many valuable links in such an article need to be undiluted by low-value links. Readers are, in fact, highly unlikely to click on anything, even on a good day. We editors tend to forget this.

IMO, the "hidden" years links should be introduced once, explicitly, or a representative sample placed unpiped in the "See also" section. This is more likely to generate clicks.

May I ask what the point of this hidden link is? On May 1, 1991, Henderson broke one of baseball's most noted records ?

Who would guess from the display mode where the link goes? Can it be removed or a less cryptic pipe substituted?

Please reader WP:OVERLINK. You may also wish to take a peak at these exercises, which are not perfect and could do with some feedback on the talk page there. Thank you. 04:45, 11 March 2010 (UTC)


 * While some of your points may be true (#Legacy example, every year using the "by" template), you or someone else removed necessary links like Ricky Nelson; what is the reason for something like this? Timneu22 (talk) 20:50, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
 * It was marked in the edit summary that just wanted it confirmed that he was named after this Ricky Nelson, who seemed awfully young and novice for someone to be named after in 1958. I would apologise for any misunderstanding. Ohconfucius  ¡digame! 08:46, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I saw the edit summary, but it didn't make sense. Whatever, no harm no foul. Timneu22 (talk) 13:55, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Arrogance
While I appreciate the recent edits to this article, I question this one. First, what's wrong with the ref? Secondly, it's true that people use that quote to show "see, he's arrogant!" I don't think removing all that text is the correct thing to do. Get a better ref, perhaps, but it's important to note that many people know Rickey only based on that quote, and think he's arrogant because of it. &mdash; Timneu22 · &#32; talk 17:09, 7 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Wizardman, did you see this comment? &mdash; Timneu22 · &#32; talk 21:40, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * If you can find a better ref, then we can keep it in. Tripod's just not a good ref, and since's it's a negative comment, it can't stay in the article until we find a good replacement. Wizardman  Operation Big Bear 22:12, 7 July 2010 (UTC)


 * How about this? "Solidified his reputation for arrogance." Again, thanks for making quality changes. You trying to get this to FA status? &mdash; Timneu22 · &#32; talk 23:01, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * That works. Yes, I'm trying to see if we can get this to FA. Since the sources are fixed all that's left is the prose now. Wizardman  Operation Big Bear 00:15, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I made this change. By the way, the "secondardy bases" stat could probably use a reference. I wasn't able to find one in a quick search. &mdash; Timneu22 · &#32; talk 00:59, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Only thing I'm finding close to a cite is Bill James's abstract, which was copyright 2001 and still has Henderson behind Ruth. Secondary bases is a stat i've never really heard anything about, so I might just remove it. He has plenty of major records to highlight as it is. Wizardman  Operation Big Bear 01:50, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Featured Article
Any progress on this? I know I haven't helped (sorry!). &mdash; Timneu22 · &#32; talk 13:36, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Incorrect Information
This line: "On May 1, 1991, Henderson stole his 939th base to pass Lou Brock and become the sport's all-time stolen base leader." is incorrect. As noted on the Sophie Kurys page, Rickey Henderson didn't become the sport's all-time stolen base leader until some time in 1994, when Henderson passed Kurys's 1114 stolen bases. We need a specific date, but I'm unable to find any reference other than "it happened in 1994". Can anyone assist with this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by JackFloridian (talk • contribs) 03:38, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

This line: "Henderson had 468 more stolen bases in his career than Brock, one short of 50% more than the game's second-most prolific basestealer." It should read "...one short of 33% more..." Fifty percent more than Brock would make it 1,876 stolen bases. — Preceding unsigned comment added by hswolfmaniac (talk • contribs) 01:28, 27 November 2017 (UTC) -->

Decade
The Seattle Mariners section states that in 2000, Henderson became the third player to hit a home run in four different decades. But the decade started in 2001, not 2000. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jbuc14 (talk • contribs) 22:15, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
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OBP Error
The article says:

In 1999, he batted .315 with 37 steals and was seventh in the NL in on-base percentage — his .423 OBP was his ninth year in a row above .400.

And there are two citations! How can this be? His OBP was clearly .376 in 1998: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/henderi01.shtml — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.166.176.121 (talk) 18:16, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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5000th K
Rick was Nolan Ryan’s 5000th K 2600:6C56:71F0:EB0:D592:1CFA:7424:857 (talk) 22:11, 26 May 2023 (UTC)