Talk:Ricochet (Tangerine Dream album)

Is Ricochet a "live" album?
There's some debate about whether or not Ricochet qualifies as a "live" album. Although assembled from live recordings made during the band's 1975 European Tour, Ricochet differs heavily from the original recordings due to editing, overdubbing, and additional effects. Thus some fans argue that Ricochet was really composed in the studio rather than on stage and should not be called "live". Most sources, however, still refer to it as a live album: So far I haven't been able to find a single source that doesn't refer to the album as "live". I'm afraid objecting to this classification would amount to original research, at least until other sites also change how they classify the album. Kaldari 22:03, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Official TD site: "Live"
 * All Music Guide: "Live", "recorded live in France and Britain"
 * Amazon.com: "Live"
 * Tower Records: "Studio/Live: Live"
 * Progography: "first live album"
 * Strawberry Bricks: "Live"
 * Hyperreal.org TD Discography: "Live Album"
 * The Tangerine Dream Database: "Live"
 * Voices in the Net: "Live", "first live album"

but all of those sites are just taking the 'live' at face-value from the various sleeves that album has been released in. it's OR, of course, but it's clear to any student of the band's output that side one is NOT live, except in the sense of it being performed in one or more 'live' passes in the studio (no bootlegs of that tour feature the drums, for example- that's pretty basic stuff, even for a non-student of the band), while side two uses a recording of the croydon set as its basis (the piano intro & other bits were recorded in the studio). even if we coaxed the truth out of CF, PB or mick glossop, would that be 'verifiable' enough for WP, in the face of the multiple references that ape the claims of the album sleeves? duncanrmi (talk) 11:44, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

but see update under 'bordeaux' below

duncanrmi (talk) 16:03, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Source material
From the liner notes to The Bootleg Box Set Vol 1: "The Fairfield Halls in Croydon played host to the band on October 23, 1975... The 1975 official live album Ricochet was partly recorded here and some of the themes from that album are easily discernable." Kaldari 21:16, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

I remember that, pre-release, this album was listed in Music Master as "Tangerine Dream, Live at Coventry Cathedral". So do we know that it was recorded in Croydon, or were Coventry and Croydon simply two dates on a tour where they played similar shows? Jimskea (talk) 02:01, 23 August 2011 (UTC)


 * We do know that parts of Ricochet were recorded at Croydon. But indeed, those were two different shows on the same tour from which Ricochet originated, and yes, the shows had similarities during that time (but much more so by 1977). Coventry Cathedral was October 4, while Fairfield Hall in Croydon was October 23. MXVN (talk) 11:55, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

bordeaux?
where's the citation for that location, given in the info-box? current thinking- the notes in the ISOH boxed set, for example- suggest that side one was conjured in the manor studio, whilst side two is easily recognisable as deriving for the most part from the croydon gig.

duncanrmi (talk) 05:22, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
 * According to the webpage TANGERINE DREAM: A RECORDING CHRONOLOGY 1969-1990, some of Ricochet part 1 comes from the Bordeaux performance: "1975 Sep 14-23, live in in Bordeaux, France - Ricochet (part one) (on live-LP RICOCHET 28 Nov 1975)". The French website Tangram: Chroniques d'un fan de Tangerine Dream supports this saying: "Ricochet est un album Live (une des 2 parties serait partiellement enregistrée à Bordeaux)...". Those are just fan sites though, so probably not citable. On the back of the original LP, however, it says: "recorded live autumn 1975 in france and britain", which would support the Bordeaux idea. Kaldari (talk) 23:15, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Probably based on a mangling of the cover photo credits:
 * The photography on the front cover was taken by Monique Froese on the ocean shore near Bordeaux (Voices in the Net)
 * There is a known recording from TD's Bordeaux 1975 concert (Tangerine Leaves volume 66) but it has nothing that resembles Ricochet. -- Trɔpʏliʊm • blah 21:54, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

"leaves" 66 is 'triple orange juice', otherwise undetailed. how do you know that bordeaux is in this collection, or that the dates tally? again, OR, but the chatter around ISOH & my own conversations with ed buller, steve wilson & others, do not suggest any concert recording provenance for side one of 'ricochet'. side two is clearly based on the croydon recording, but many of us steeped in the bootleg recordings of this tour agree that by the time of the croydon gig, the band were running out of time to capture a good enough performance for a live album, & that the performance style changed dramatically from the earlier improvisational pieces to a more arranged structure. "we need to get something together that we can release", in other words. none of the bootlegs from the UK/european dates of the period feature live drums, for instance, while they are prominent on side one. not sure what my point is here, except to re-assert that side one is a studio creation, probably prepared & then performed in several 'live' passes, with mick glossop doing the assembly, while side two is an enhanced & repaired live recording from croydon.

duncanrmi (talk) 11:37, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

[update- more OR!] I've listened to the TT bordeaux recording, & from about 34' in, there are some resemblances to side one of the album. I didn't hear anything & immediately go "ah, yes, there's that bit", but there are some phrases on the rhodes & a sequencer line that match the album. the bootleg runs out, unfortunately, before anything conclusive is heard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZeL904QvD0

duncanrmi (talk) 13:20, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Triple Orange Juice lacks official cover art but did have original release notes and tracklisting, which give track 1 as "Bordeaux 75" clearly enough.
 * That Ricochet has studio overdubbed drums has been established fan knowledge for ages, IIRC going back to some interviews in the late 70s or early 80s, but doesn't invalidate live status otherwise; comparing the Croydon tape with Part 2 easily reveals similar tampering. I concluded though already when I first got my hands on a decent variety of TT releases that Ricochet part 1 must be studio work: maybe the most damning argument is that, among the small number of repeated melody and sequencer motifs in their live '75 work, the main themes from Part 1 are completely absent (continue to be absent even going into '76 too). -- Trɔpʏliʊm • blah 01:20, 8 February 2020 (UTC)