Talk:Right-libertarianism/Archive 4

Davide King's comments
 I hope it's not a problem if I write here my thoughts on the Right-libertarian page's discussion and ping and all other users involved, asking you if you can wait for my unblock request's result so that I can participate to the discussion since I was involved into it and this discussion goes on by months. To clarify, I was the IP that opposed PhilLiberty's discussion that started all this. I've got nothing personal against JLMadrigal (I commend you for not editing the page like PhilLiberty did and waiting to reach a consensus), but I'm honestly astonished by the direction all this took. I hope you will read this until the end; read it a little bit at a time, but please read it. I apologise for the length, but there was so much I wanted to say and counterargue, although Pfhorrest did a good job already, even if I disagree with the merger proposal. Whether I will be unblocked or not, I want to show my committement to Wikipedia in making good contributions and I hope my arguments and proposal will be taken in consideration regardless.

What's to be done
In short, the topics should be as follows:
 * 1) Libertarianism (broad terms).
 * 2) Left-libertarianism (libertarian socialist and other left-leaning ideologies and the broad libertarian left opposed to the use of the state and authortarianism in left-wing politics).
 * 3) Right-libertarianism (American-style libertarianism, i.e. radical economic liberalism that in some ways part ways, no pun intended, from liberalism in its opposition to the state in some form and being even more critical of government and state intervention, especially in the economy, that has expanded around the world, or more specifically the libertarian ideologies which support free-market/laissez-faire/liberal capitalism and the private ownership of both natural resources and capital; and the broad libertarian right, opposed to both economic and social intervention).

Indeed, it's Libertarianism in the United States that desperately need to be discussed and improved; and where you can add Etimology/Definition/Typology and Left-libertarianism and right-libertarianism sections instead of disambiguating and deleting Right-libertariansm and/or Left-libertarianism. Besides, there's already Libertarianism (disambiguation) which discusses what you're talking about, perhaps expand it?

Libertarianism in the United States desperately needs:
 * 1) New informations to the lead that better describe and summarise it.
 * 2) Its double origins, namely how Joseph Déjacque, the one to first coin the political word, lived in New York City and published a book on the topic and a journal; and how it was used by anarchists in the United States to distinguish themselves from state socialism (much like in the rest of the world). It only talks in the sense of libertarian as a synonym for classical liberalism and economic liberalism.
 * 3) Mentions of the origins of and debate/issues between communist and indvidualist anarchists about one being the true libertarian and accusing the other other of being authoritarian/statist, etc.
 * 4) Mentions of left-wing market anarchism or other left-libertarians in the United States. Indeed, the page should also mention and talk about 19th–21st century anarchist/libertarian socialist movements.

We could create a Libertarian capitalism page, whose topics should be about economic and laissez-faire liberalism opposed to state interventions and government regulations present in democratic capitalism, which they deem as crony/state capitalism, corporatism, etc.

Issues
First of all, just a few months ago we had a requested move which resulted in consensus not to move the page and not seeing anything wrong with the current title. Second of all, I agree with Pfhorrest's arguments, which are basically mine too (I also agree with Pfhorrest's football comparison rather than North8000's previous dogs comparison). Just like the first move request, the premise a possible second move request is objectively false as right-libertarianism is the common name, whether we like it or not, which is what the opposition to the current name is based on, rather than a serious reasearch on what reliable sources say. Indeed, no reliable sources have been put on to support a move and I'm astonished that this discussion is still going on when right-libertarianism is the one with the most hits.

Thirdly, there's some serious misunderstanding of the topic and an American libertarian bias in JLMadrigal's arguments (arguing left-libertarians are a minority not by realiable sources, but by some party affiliations, or something like that, when most so-called left-libertarians are anarchists who reject electoral politics) and a lack of knowledge about the topic (the Libertarian League was created by anarchists/libertarian socialists much earlier than the Libertarian Party and before modern libertarianism in the United States became a thing). For instance, it's my understanding that JLMadrigal sees right-libertarianism in American libertarian lens, i.e. as libertarians who are cultural conservatives (Lew Rockwell, Hans-Hermann Hoppe, etc.), when in reality it refers to the libertarianism supportive of the private ownership of natural resources and of capital, i.e. the means of production; the reason why the page isn't titled libertarian capitalism is because right-libertarianism is the common name and that's fine (unless you simply don't want to be associated with the right, which is nothing new), even better because certain right-libertarians may reject capitalism, seen as state capitalism rather than the free market they support (which they prefer as term), even if in practice they support capitalism (private ownership of the means of production, production for profit, wage labour, etc.). Furthermore, left-libertarians don't identify as such either, but JLMadrigal only worried about libertarians that are considered right-libertarians, hence JLMadrigal's bias against left-libertarianism. We could make a Definition, Etymology, or Typology section in the more appopriate Libertarianism in the United States page instead of this disambiguation proposal.

Finally, it's my understanding that these two pages are a compromise, which I personally support. Libertarianism refers to the ideology in broad terms (if it's now mainly about so-called left-libertarianism is because we can't simply act like over hundred years of history didn't exist until the 20th century); left-libertarianism to the original/classical/19th century libertarianism (which is still the majority view of the world and is very modern/actual), i.e. libertairisme, libertarismo; and right-libertarianism to the modern 20th century libertarianism, i.e. libertarianisme, libertarianismo. Both pages are written in international lens (because American-style libertarianism has indeed expanded around the world ever since the 1970s) and so right-libertarianism is about American-style modern libertarian ideologies supportive of laissez-faire capitalism rather than just American right-libertarians. The issue is that in the United States left-libertarianism basically simply refer to the left of right-libertarianism, i.e. the Steiner–Vallentyne school, which as explained by The Four Deuces is very much close to right-libertarianism, but since it's also a tiny minority (per The Four Deuces, again), it shouldn't be a problem (especially since we're talking about left-libertarianism and right-libertarianism through global's lenses and not the United States') and thus left-libertarianism and right-libertarianism remain the most used and best possible titles, even if we don't like it. Ultimately, this whole discussion should be on Talk:Libertarianism in the United States because that's what JLMadrigal and Nort8000 actually seem to be referring to.

Proposals
This page should remain, just like left-libertarianism. What should've been discussed is ways to improve the page with more reliable sourced informations, not moving or deleting the page when reliable sources support the current naming; perhaps the page should be more clear and clarify what's talking about, not what has been proposed thus far. I propose to simply delete the History and Notable people and publications associated with right-libertarianism (which are basically the same in Libertarianism in the United States) since I believe that's the real issues JLMadrigal, so that the page reflects the left-libertarianism one and because I believe that's the real issue JLMadrigal has with and which caused a misunderstanding. As stated, this page is about libertarian ideologies supporting free-market/laissez-faire capitalism and the private ownership of both natural resources and capital, so that makes most American libertarians listed right-libertarians, even if they may not call themselves as such (I repeat this page should be looking at it internationally).

As such, I propose to move pages such as Libertarianism in the United Kingdom and Libertarianism in South Africa here, redirecting them to Right-libertarianism#Name country, where we would write a section about it, since they mainly talk in American-style/right-libertarian terms. I'm not even opposed to a Libertarian capitalism, perhaps talking about economic liberalism and laissez-faire as stated by The Four Deuces, or was it Beyond My Ken, sorry? The Economic liberalism page is really short and could be expanded with information about American libertarianism, which is basically its synonymous. I believe The Four Deuces and Beyond My Ken are two very expert-wise users and could do a really good job. Perhaps The Four Deuces could also re-write from the scratch a History section in Right-libertarianism.

I also propose to add more information, if we can find it from reliable sources, the New Left and libertarian left and the New Right and libertarian right in left-libertarianism and right-libertarianism, respectively, i.e. making them more broad than just libertarian socialism and libertarian capitalism (hence why the separate articles), talking about the anti-capitalist left opposed to the use of both authoritaranism and the state in left-wing politics; and the libertarian right supportive of both economic and cultural liberalism (cultural conservative libertarians are really conservatives who supports both social conservatism and economical liberalism in European terms) in right-wing politics.

Final thoughts
I could be wrong, but I would like to point out that libertarianism was first coined in political terms as a new philosophy, in that case libertarian communism (with its opposition to all authority and herarchies, including the market and property), regarded as the consistent view of anarchism. In the 1890s, it became associated to anarchism as a whole, including in the United States, where in the 20th century it also became used as a synonym for classical/19th century liberalism rather than some new philosophy. Indeed, it was only in the 1950s and truly after the 1970s that libertarianism in the United States became what it's today, parting ways with the classical liberal school due to the latter refusing to give priority to liberty over order and not exhibiting the hostility to the state which American libertarianism has ("Classical liberalism refuses to give priority to liberty over order and therefore does not exhibit the hostility to the state"). That's why it could be just as easily proposed that Libertarianism should be only about classical libertarianism.

If on the left it isn't much used as on the right, it's simply because it's literally seen as a synonym of anarchism, hence why Anarchism and Libertarianism could be just as easily merged, if it wasn't for the fact that Libertarianism contains much useful information which deserve to have its own article, perhaps moving Libertarianism's Modern American libertarianism and American libertarianism sections to Libertarianism in the United States and Liberalism pages since it should be considered a school of liberalism and as it came out from the liberal tradition, not being much different (indeed, American libertarianism is seen as the European liberalism within the right, compared to the American social liberalism which is seen in Europe within the centre/centre-left). I'm not going to really propose all this because I'm fine the way things stand now, but that would still be better than turning this page into a disambiguation page because someone doesn't like it.

--Davide King (talk) 18:11, 7 November 2019 (UTC)


 * The page currently entitled "right-libertarianism" describes the taxonomy which is common to 25% of the US population. For this reason, it needs to be retitled. The current title is ambiguous and confusing to most people - except for the small group that calls itself "left-libertarian" who use it to describe the antitheses to their nuanced view regarding property. This usage needs to be clarified (made less ambiguous). JLMadrigal   @  19:53, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for your reply. I think this just further convinced the suspictions I stated above. Left-libertarianism isn't a "small group"; it's the majority of libertarians worldwide. It's only in the United State where they're the minority, a minority itself in that it mainly refers to left-wing market-oriented libertarians and the Steiner–Vallentyne school which mainly differ from right-libertarians due its egalitarian approach to natural resources. However, the page isn't titled Right-libertarianism in the United States or Left-libertarianism in the United States; they're written without any country's bias but internationally, i.e. left-libertarianism referring to libertarian socialist and other left-leaning ideologies and the broad libertarian left opposed to the use of the state and authortarianism in left-wing politics, rather than just left-libertarianism in the United States; and right-libertarianism referring to modern American-style libertarianism which expanded globally in the 1970, not to cultural conservatives American libertarians like you may think. Please, check my full right-libertarianism page proposal I posted above which removed the History and People sections which are already in the Libertarianism in the United States article. This way it would be structured the same way like Left-libertarianism and it wouldn't include the People section you believe aren't warranted to be included since they simply label themeselves as libertarians. I reiterate what the topic should be and what the article should be talking about:
 * Libertarianism: broad as it is now.
 * Left-libertarianism: libertarian socialist and other left-leaning ideologies, including the ones which reject the private ownership of natural resources and that are called left-libertarianism in the United States; and the broad libertarian left opposed to the use of the state and authortarianism in left-wing politics.
 * Right-libertarianism: American-style libertarianism (i.e. radical economic liberalism that in some ways part ways, no pun intended, from liberalism in its opposition to the state in some form and being even more critical of government and state intervention, especially in the economy) that has expanded around the world, or more specifically the libertarian ideologies which support free-market/laissez-faire/liberal capitalism and the private ownership of both natural resources and capital; and the broad libertarian right, opposed to both economic and social intervention).
 * Libertarianism in the United States, the libertarianism you and seem to be actually talking about and referring to and which is the page that truly need to be discussed and improved, such as follows:
 * Let's add a Definition, Etymology or Typology section in Libertarianism in the United States rather than delete or merge Right-libertarianism and/or Left-libertarianism or create a Libertarian (disambiguation) when there's already Libertarianism (disambiguation) for that.
 * Let's also add a Definition section in Right-libertarianism much like it's done in Left-libertarianism.--Davide King (talk) 20:40, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
 * P.S. In short, I'm for an improved status quo, i.e. keeping things as they are but improve them by adding further sourced content rather than remove it, creating for instance a new section (or improve an existing one) which better describe and clarify what it's talking about.--Davide King (talk) 21:10, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I also reiterate here—to make it more accessable and not make it look lost in the wall of text I've written above—what I further propose for Libertarianism in the United States:
 * New informations to the lead that better describe and summarise it. A History section that better describe its double origins, namely how Joseph Déjacque, the one to first coin the political word, lived in New York City and published a book on the topic and a journal and how it was used by anarchists in the United States to distinguish themselves from state socialism (much like in the rest of the world); and its origins as synonym for classical liberalism.
 * The whole page mainly talks only in the sense of libertarian being a more radical form of classical and economic liberalism. Besides clarifying the origins of the term, how it differs from what's understood in much of the world outside the United States, there're no mentions of the origins of and debate/issues between communist and indvidualist American anarchists about one being the true libertarian and accusing the other other of being authoritarian/statist and how that led to the end of 19th-century individualist anarchism heyday; no mentions of left-wing market anarchism or other left-libertarians in the United States; and no mention or section that talk about 19th–21st century anarchist/libertarian socialist movements in the United States.--Davide King (talk) 22:19, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
 * One final thing while we're at it. If I understood well, one concern of is that people simply don't know the term (other proposed terms were either biased in favor of a specific form of libertarianism or terms just as less well known anyway), but I'm sure American people searching Liberalism or Conservatism on Wikipedia may expect to see what's actually written in the Modern liberalism in the United States and Conservatism in the United States. I'm sure American people searching Libertarianism would likewise expect what's actually written in Libertarianism in the United States. Either way, I don't think this justify a name change and American people aren't special or above other people. This isn't the United States or American (English) Wikipedia but the English Wikipedia, which I personally see as the international Wikipedia since English is the most widespread language. As Wintson Churchill famously said, "Right-libertarianism is the worst title of a Wikipedian article except all those other titles that have been proposed from time to time", or simply as it may not be the best name but it's the best choice/best (possible/working) title.--Davide King (talk) 23:10, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your extensive and thoughtful comments, Davide. I hope you get unblocked soon, I'd love to have you back participating in the encyclopedia. I also think your suggestions here are better than my merger proposal, which was always just a compromise to try to wrap up this dispute in some way or other without biasing the encyclopedia. --Pfhorrest (talk) 21:04, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I challenge you, Davide, to provide proof of your claim that left-libertarianism is a majority view. Even if you combine the population of all adherents of this philosophy around the globe, it is still only a small fraction of the 1/4 of Americans who identify as libertarians of the variety described in the article (some 82 million). JLMadrigal   @  04:07, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you again for your reply, but I have to apologise because it seems like I didn't explainn myself good or clear. Either that, or you haven't read in full the whole thing I wrote (please, do it when you can and feel free to ask for ay clarification, etc.). I'm saying this because I literally say I agree with that, namely that left-libertarians are the minority in the United States, which could be said to be dominated by liberalism since modern liberalism, conservatism and American libertarianism are all part of the same liberal tradition. However, left-libertarianism also refers to the original libertarianism; Left-libertarianism does't refer only to left-libertarianism in the United States (otherwhise it would have been title Left-libertarianism in the United States) but also to its anarchist/socialist wing which it's still the biggest worldwide form of libertarianism. You already made this argument months ago and, as I also stated in my original message here, "Even if you combine the population of all adherents of this philosophy around the globe" is simply wrong; the anarchist/socialist wing of left-libertarianism rejects electoral politics, so we can't just make up some numbers about parties and their membership; and that's not how it works. Reliable sources say it exists since the 19th century and continues to this day. I also don't understand why you and North8000 keep mentioning those so-called one fourth of Americans identifying as libertarians. I don't dispute that, but I don't see how that's relevant to the Right-libertarianism article, which I repeat is about a specific form of libertarianism that expanded worldwide since the 1970s and not just Libertarianism in the United States, or even what each responder understood libertarian to mean, or whether the responder was left-libertarian, right-libertarian, or any other type of libertarian. Indeed, there's literally a phrase in Libertarianism stating: "However, a 2014 Pew Poll found that 23% of Americans who identify as libertarians have no idea what the word means". Source: Kiley, Jocelyn (25 August 2014). "In Search of Libertarians". Pew Research Center. "14% say the term libertarian describes them well; 77% of those know the definition (11% of total), while 23% do not (3% of total). See also these sources:
 * Goodway, David (2006). Anarchist Seeds Beneath the Snow: Left-Libertarian Thought and British Writers from William Morris to Colin Ward. Liverpool: Liverpool University Press. p. 4. "'Libertarian' and 'libertarianism' are frequently employed by anarchists as synonyms for 'anarchist' and 'anarchism', largely as an attempt to distance themselves from the negative connotations of 'anarchy' and its derivatives. The situation has been vastly complicated in recent decades with the rise of anarcho-capitalism, 'minimal statism' and an extreme right-wing laissez-faire philosophy advocated by such theorists as Rothbard and Nozick and their adoption of the words 'libertarian' and 'libertarianism'. It has therefore now become necessary to distinguish between their right libertarianism and the left libertarianism of the anarchist tradition".
 * Marshall, Peter (2008). Demanding the Impossible: A History of Anarchism. London: Harper Perennial. p. 565. "In its moderate form, right libertarianism embraces laissez-faire liberals like Robert Nozick who call for a minimal State, and in its extreme form, anarcho-capitalists like Murray Rothbard and David Friedman who entirely repudiate the role of the State and look to the market as a means of ensuring social order".--Davide King (talk) 06:20, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

OK Davide, I'll make it super easy for you. Provide ANY statistic proving your claim that left-libertarianism is the majority view. JLMadrigal  @  13:40, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't think that's how Wikipedia works; Wikipedia works by reliable sources and not by some number statistics, which would also be impossible to verify. Libertarianism is a tradition that goes back to at least the 19th century; all anarchists and most libertarian socialists have been and are part of it; and as such, they don't have parties and don't support electoral politics. Are you denying this? We can't just act like over hundred years of libertarian history didn't exist. American liberals (social liberals), conservatives (liberal conservative) and libertarians (classical liberals) all come from the liberal school and can be considered part of the broad liberalism tradition; however, since the 19th century libertarianism has been part of the anarchist and libertarian socialist and communist tradition. In coining the term, Déjacque literally called Proudhon a mere liberal, a moderate anarchist. Anyway, see George Woodcock's Anarchism: A History of Libertarian Ideas and Movements (1962) and also the following sources:
 * Ward, Colin (2004). Anarchism: A Very Short Introduction. Oxford University Press. p. 62. "For a century, anarchists have used the word 'libertarian' as a synonym for 'anarchist', both as a noun and an adjective. The celebrated anarchist journal Le Libertaire was founded in 1896. However, much more recently the word has been appropriated by various American free-market philosophers."; Marshall, Peter (2009). Demanding the Impossible: A History of Anarchism. p. 641. "The word 'libertarian' has long been associated with anarchism, and has been used repeatedly throughout this work. The term originally denoted a person who upheld the doctrine of the freedom of the will; in this sense, Godwin was not a 'libertarian', but a 'necessitarian'. It came however to be applied to anyone who approved of liberty in general. In anarchist circles, it was first used by Joseph Déjacque as the title of his anarchist journal Le Libertaire, Journal du Mouvement Social published in New York in 1858. At the end of the last century, the anarchist Sebastien Faure took up the word, to stress the difference between anarchists and authoritarian socialists". Ever since that, libertarianism has been used, and still is, to refer to anarchists and libertarian socialists and communists; and hence, it's more notable.--Davide King (talk) 19:51, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Response from Pfhorrest
Everyone involved here has already been pinged by him, but for posterity I would like to note User_talk:Davide_King where another editor who had previously been involved here just expressed extensive support for my side of this argument. He makes some concrete suggestions that I think are better than my merge proposal (which was always just a compromise anyway). I'll quote his summary of them here for reference:

The particulars of his suggestions are much more extensive, available at the link to his talk page above. --Pfhorrest (talk)
 * Libertarianism: broad as it is now.
 * Left-libertarianism: libertarian socialist and other left-leaning ideologies, including the ones which reject the private ownership of natural resources and that are called left-libertarianism in the United States; and the broad libertarian left opposed to the use of the state and authortarianism in left-wing politics.
 * Right-libertarianism: American-style libertarianism (i.e. radical economic liberalism that in some ways part ways, no pun intended, from liberalism in its opposition to the state in some form and being even more critical of government and state intervention, especially in the economy) that has expanded around the world, or more specifically the libertarian ideologies which support free-market/laissez-faire/liberal capitalism and the private ownership of both natural resources and capital; and the broad libertarian right, opposed to both economic and social intervention).
 * Libertarianism in the United States, the libertarianism [] and seem to be actually talking about and referring to and which is the page that truly need to be discussed and improved, such as follows:
 * Let's add a Definition, Etymology or Typology section in Libertarianism in the United States rather than delete or merge Right-libertarianism and/or Left-libertarianism or create a Libertarian (disambiguation) when there's already Libertarianism (disambiguation) for that.
 * Let's also add a Definition section in Right-libertarianism much like it's done in Left-libertarianism.--


 * I would suggest a reorganization as follows:
 * Libertarianism, an ideology that developed in the 19th century,
 * Pro-capitalist libertarianism, an ideology that developed out of 19th century libertarianism,
 * Left libertarianism, a form of pro-capitalist libertarianism, and
 * Libertarian (political typology), a voting demographic that supports smaller government.
 * TFD (talk) 03:18, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Source for this "pro-capitalist libertarianism" terminology? (I don't dispute that that's at least an accurate description, but so is the current name, which is also reflected in sources).
 * Also, (who had some nice things to say about you, BTW) suggests at the link above that characterizing right-libertarianism as capitalist may be even more problematic than characterizing it as right-wing, as (he claims) some of them frame themselves as being against capitalism, but for free markets. (Which sounds to me like a libertarian socialist position, but I'm just relaying his comment here, not arguing for or against it).
 * Also also, are you suggesting that the article Libertarianism itself should be completely about the earlier, generally leftist/socialist strands of libertarianism, with everything about the kind that JLMadrigal calls "center-north" being confined to your proposed Pro-capitalist libertarianism article? That sounds like it would be biased in the opposite direction than most of the proposals thus far, and would probably be met with strong opposition from North and Madrigal here, and I would actually have to side with them on that point. I think Libertarianism should encompass all positions that have called themselves libertarian anywhere at any time, and educate users on both the taxonomy of sub-types of that field of views, and the historical relationships between them. As it generally does now. --Pfhorrest (talk) 05:12, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Davide also had some nice sources to share on a broader use of left- and right-libertarianism than you've been wanting to limit them to: David Goodway (2006) and Peter Marshall (2008) use left-libertarianism to refer to the original libertairisme (English: libertarianism) specifically to distinguish itself from what they call right-libertarianism, i.e. modern American libertarianism which is within the liberal tradition but isn't called liberalism because in the United States the word liberal mainly refers to what in Europe we call social liberalism. Sources: Goodway, David (2006). Anarchist Seeds Beneath the Snow: Left-Libertarian Thought and British Writers from William Morris to Colin Ward. Liverpool: Liverpool University Press. p. 4. "'Libertarian' and 'libertarianism' are frequently employed by anarchists as synonyms for 'anarchist' and 'anarchism', largely as an attempt to distance themselves from the negative connotations of 'anarchy' and its derivatives. The situation has been vastly complicated in recent decades with the rise of anarcho-capitalism, 'minimal statism' and an extreme right-wing laissez-faire philosophy advocated by such theorists as Rothbard and Nozick and their adoption of the words 'libertarian' and 'libertarianism'. It has therefore now become necessary to distinguish between their right libertarianism and the left libertarianism of the anarchist tradition". Marshall, Peter (2008). Demanding the Impossible: A History of Anarchism. London: Harper Perennial. p. 565. "In its moderate form, right libertarianism embraces laissez-faire liberals like Robert Nozick who call for a minimal State, and in its extreme form, anarcho-capitalists like Murray Rothbard and David Friedman who entirely repudiate the role of the State and look to the market as a means of ensuring social order". --Pfhorrest (talk) 05:20, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Some more sources courtesy of Davide, copied from his talk page, on the notability of broadly leftist libertarianism:
 * see George Woodcock's Anarchism: A History of Libertarian Ideas and Movements (1962) and also the following sources:
 * Ward, Colin (2004). Anarchism: A Very Short Introduction. Oxford University Press. p. 62. "For a century, anarchists have used the word 'libertarian' as a synonym for 'anarchist', both as a noun and an adjective. The celebrated anarchist journal Le Libertaire was founded in 1896. However, much more recently the word has been appropriated by various American free-market philosophers."; Marshall, Peter (2009). Demanding the Impossible: A History of Anarchism. p. 641. "The word 'libertarian' has long been associated with anarchism, and has been used repeatedly throughout this work. The term originally denoted a person who upheld the doctrine of the freedom of the will; in this sense, Godwin was not a 'libertarian', but a 'necessitarian'. It came however to be applied to anyone who approved of liberty in general. In anarchist circles, it was first used by Joseph Déjacque as the title of his anarchist journal Le Libertaire, Journal du Mouvement Social published in New York in 1858. At the end of the last century, the anarchist Sebastien Faure took up the word, to stress the difference between anarchists and authoritarian socialists". Ever since that, libertarianism has been used, and still is, to refer to anarchists and libertarian socialists and communists; and hence, it's more notable.--Davide King (talk) 19:51, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

--Pfhorrest (talk) 23:32, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Also from same:
 * In its oldest sense, [left-libertarianism] is a synonym either for anarchism in general or social anarchism in particular. Later it became a term for the left or Konkinite wing of the free-market libertarian movement, and has since come to cover a range of pro-market but anti-capitalist positions, mostly individualist anarchist, including agorism and mutualism, often with an implication of sympathies (such as for radical feminism or the labor movement) not usually shared by anarcho-capitalists. In a third sense it has recently come to be applied to a position combining individual self-ownership with an egalitarian approach to natural resources; most proponents of this position are not anarchists.
 * Source: "Anarchism". In Gaus, Gerald F.; D'Agostino, Fred, eds. (2012). The Routledge Companion to Social and Political Philosophy. p. 227.

--Pfhorrest (talk) 23:52, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

From here:

Added by Davide King (talk) 03:38, 10 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Glad to see you're back in action Davide, and thank you for your contributions here already.
 * With regards to the edits reverted by North8000, I would like to voice my support for all of those changes, for the reasons you gave in your edit summaries, and I'd like to hear North's rationale for opposing them. --Pfhorrest (talk) 08:11, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
 * The ones that I oppose are the ones that redefine this article away from what has been decided.    David mixed them all into a gigantic Gordian knot where smaller scale reverts would not be made without spending far more time than people have available. There were also many good edits in that giant Gordian knot. Suggest slowing down and splitting them up. Also acknowledging that for better or worse that this article is about what was decided above. E.G significantly about the form that is common in but not limited to the US.    North8000 (talk) 14:06, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what was decided this article to be about. As far as I know, right-libertarianism is the libertarian philosophy (most influenced by European liberalism and mainstream American libertarianism) that support the private ownership of both land and capital. This would include most American and American-influenced libertarianism but not all of it. I removed the parts that didn't explicity refer to right-libertarianism but mainly referring to what is talked about in Libertarianism in the United States; indeed, wasn't one of 's main concern that of people labelling themselves libertarian being labelled right-libertarians?). I also believe both Left-libertarianism and Right-libertarianism should be strictured similarly and not beig too big or long. Right-libertarianism needs a Definition section like Left-libertarianism which hopefully can clarify why the term is used, etc. and help the reader in better understanding the article.--Davide King (talk) 14:33, 11 November 2019 (UTC)