Talk:Rights and obligations of spouses in Islam

Untitled
We have a section here also. --Aminz 06:32, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Article title
I disagree that the article title was changed from "Wife beating in Islam" to "Domestic behaviour in Islam" on the basis of being biased because


 * 1) The article is not about domestic behavior, it is only about wife beating (or lack thereof). It was started as an extension of Criticism of Islam because the section was extremely long.
 * 2) I think "Wife beating and Islam" is definetly NPOV.

Other thoughts? --Ephilei 21:36, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Please find a discussion on this here:

Thanks --Aminz 22:19, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Document contents
I think, sections like "woman's treatment in Islam" and "general behaviour in house required by Islam" should also be part of the article which can include different hadith from Prophet Muhammad, so that a compelete picture would be present for a novice reader, otherwise someone would think that Islam only teaches beating wives, which is wrong. --SaadSaleem 05:19, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Domestic behavior in Islam
You may find this interesting. http://www.karamah.org/docs/DomViolfinal.pdf

It is written by Azizah Y. al-Hibri. It is a peer reviewed journal paper and qualifies as WP:RS. It is published here: Al-Hibri, Azizah Y. (2003). "An Islamic Perspective on Domestic Violence". 27 Fordham International Law Journal 195.

Thought it might be useful. --Aminz 06:50, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Lead paragraph
Lead paragraph needs some help.  TruthSpreader Talk 15:39, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

mild in lead paragraph
I have presented hadith and comments from some Islamic scholars, which interpret as mild, not harsh, beating with toothbrush etc. How does the lead paragraph, not qualify to have mild in it?  TruthSpreader Talk 17:24, 29 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I can present Hadith that do not say "mild". In fact I can present one that says no one will ever be asked why he beat his wife.  I am happy to add them to the text if you like.  Mild is also dependent on time and place.  You can beat without inflicting permanent injury and that would not be mild by most standards these days.  The mild is begging the question and inaccurate. Lao Wai 17:26, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Can you present the hadith which says "permanent injury" instead of "permanent mark". Secondly, all hadith are primary sources, and you cannot interpret permanent mark as permanent injury. And I have stated above, that what Muslim scholars think about it.  TruthSpreader Talk 17:48, 29 August 2006 (UTC)


 * IF you like feel free to replace the word "injury" with "mark". It does not change my argument at all. You have stated what some Muslim scholars think about it.  Mild remains question begging and inaccurate - what they thought of as mild may not be what we think of as mild. Lao Wai 18:00, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Changes
With due respect, sourced text cannot be changed, and putting headings like "domestic voilence in islam" is a clear and simple POV.  TruthSpreader Talk 18:32, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


 * With all due respect any text can be changed. Especially if it is wrong.  It is not POV.  I am happy to use a more neutral term if you can think of one, but we are talking about wfe beating.  I am happy to change it to "Wife Beating in Islam" if you like.  Anything less would be both POV inaccurate. Lao Wai 18:34, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

When I say, X says Y, it doesn't mean that X is right. It just means that you are understanding on the authority of X.  TruthSpreader Talk 18:37, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

When you say that Modern Islamic Scholars, you must first prove that they disagree with traditional scholars. Statements like that "we don't know what traditional scholars agree" are very vague.  TruthSpreader Talk 18:38, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes but when I say that your source is a modern Pakistani scholar, it is because he is a modern Pakistani scholar and it would be a mistake to confuse the opinion of one or two men with the long and varied historical Islamic tradition. I am happy to agree that is vague, but there still needs to be some recognition that what these men say does not necessarily reflect what anyone else thinks or thought. I am open to a suggested change for that one. Do you have another specific example you object to? Lao Wai 18:43, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I need a source to know your opinion. You cannot talk from your own that they disagree with traditional understanding. This is WP:OR.  TruthSpreader Talk 18:47, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


 * ??? TruthSpreader Talk 19:13, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

And wife beating in islam is not a proper heading, because Islamic feminists and some other modern muslims don't agree with that. So to have a NPOV, behaviour with rebellious wives, is the most NPOV heading.  TruthSpreader Talk 18:40, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Except the wives do not have to be rebellious. The husband merely has to fear they might be.  That is inaccurate.  Islamic feminists tend not to agree with wife beating full stop.  I don't think they are going to object to the title.  Besides as the article makes no mention of them or their objections whatsoever, how is it relevant?  What is being done is justifying beating wives.  Why it is done is Islam.  How can you be more NPOV? Lao Wai 18:43, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


 * In rebellious action, you don't only beat, you also consult, separate your bed and then beat. so you cannot say, "wife beating" is appropriate heading. As actual process is composed of many things.  TruthSpreader Talk 19:10, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


 * ??? TruthSpreader Talk 19:13, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I need a clear explanation of changing quoted text. As this text is not mine, but rather his, which was copied.  TruthSpreader Talk 18:46, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Which text by any cited author did I change? Except the dishonest Sahih Muslim hadith.  Lao Wai 18:48, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
 * You changed writings of Ghamidi couple of times. You should have a look in history.  TruthSpreader Talk 18:50, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
 * ?? TruthSpreader Talk 18:55, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I need a reason for removing, "then" in the opening paragraph, when all translations agree that these actions are sequential. I need a secondary source to believe in your opinion.  TruthSpreader Talk 19:01, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


 * ???  TruthSpreader Talk 19:13, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I need some solid answers for above questions with question marks.  TruthSpreader Talk 19:33, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

al-Hibri
She is not a reliable source, she is a lawyer and has no training in history or Islamic studies. While the sentence before the reference to her is true, it should be sourced to a reliable source. Someone, please do this. Arrow740 05:54, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

clothing or other signs as wives
What clothes do women wear to show that they are married? A Christian wife may wear a ring, for example. Is there any such tradition? Thanks! --FlammingoParliament 12:31, 15 February 2007 (UTC)