Talk:Rigor mortis

Are the corpse photos necessary?
Unsure on the necessity of the photos of bodies of hurricane victims. I understand that these photos demonstrate rigor mortis, but it feels disrespectful to treat the bodies of innocent people as scientific examples, at least to me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Digitalbirthcontrol (talk • contribs) 13:30, 15 November 2021 (UTC)


 * I agree that this is a rather distressing image. I have moved it to the "See Also" section as a link. This way, the same information can still be found but the reader won't be confronted with it without warning. I'm aware that this image was subject to several vandalism attempts so I hope I'm not stepping on any toes doing this. Crusoe704 (talk) 10:34, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Image still there. New to Wiki, just deleting image under Physiology didn't work. Comment not posted either: basically, disrespectful to readers, those people; could their family recognize them? Needs removing from that section again, it's back, as per discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by H2o27 (talk • contribs) 15:21, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Untitled
What is meat technology? Joerite 08:20, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Application in Industry inaccurate or incomplete
The article states that applying electrical current to carcasses depletes ATP thus preventing "cold shortening". However, depletion of ATP is the cause of rigor mortis. So unless "cold shortening" is unrelated or conversely related to rigor mortis, this explanation is inaccurate. This section should be amended with further explanation and citation or else removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.142.126.0 (talk) 03:22, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Rigimortis [Incorrect Spelling]

 * This term, often slurred in speech (in my experience), is much like "law abiding" where I've heard MANY people say "law-biting" and this is simply incorrect. Is there any way to add this term to automatically move to "Rigor Mortis" for those who are unaware of the proper spelling?
 * Make misspelled titled page and redirect it too hear: #REDIRECTRigor mortis Joerite 08:20, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Temperature
The article says that rigor mortis varies with temperature, but does not say what this relationship is. Does cold accelerate or delay the process? -- 125.238.203.52 12:07, 9 June 2007 (UTC)The process of rigor mortis has an optimal temperature of 35°c where the muscle tissue breaks down at a fast rate. For the purpose of the meat industry the process must be managed and slowed down to avoid spoilage. For the purpose of tenderizing or dry-aging temperature of 1 to 2°c is optimal.

Duration
The duration (40 minutes) seems to be incorrect. Other sources say that it lasts days. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.119.242.94 (talk) 10:32, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

suggestions for re-wording
I'll be breaking this section down, paragraph, by paragraph. My suggestion will be bolded.

"To preface the following information, the body experiences different, physical, things after death. There is a reason for it and here is the technical anwser."- '''Dude, do I really need to say why this needs to go?? This just screams "Here is the verry wordy, confusing, difficult, long answer as to why the body goes through rigor. If you are not experienced in this field of study, too bad.'''

"After a muscle contracts, ATP expenditure is required to release the myosin head of a thick filament from its binding site on the thin filament[1]. Since all metabolic processes have come to a halt in a dead body, no ATP is being produced. Therefore, because of a lack of ATP, the myosin head cannot be released from the actin filament, and the sarcomere cannot relax. Because this happens in muscles all over the body, they become "stiff" and "locked" into place." - '''Ok, something about ATP is required to make muscles move. When there is no ATP, the muscles can't move anymore.'''

ATP is required to reuptake calcium into the sarcomere's sarcoplasmic reticulum (SR). Additionally, when a muscle is relaxed, the myosin heads are returned to their "high energy" position, ready and waiting for a binding site on the actin filament to become available. Because there is no ATP available, previously released calcium ions cannot return to the SR. These leftover calcium ions move around inside the sarcomere and may eventually find their way to a binding site on the thin filament's regulatory protein. Since the myosin head is already ready to bind, no additional ATP expenditure is required and the sarcomere contracts. When this process occurs on a larger scale, the disturbing twitches and gruesome postures associated with rigor mortis can occur. - '''Uhh, something about the chemical process of moving the muscles???? This need to be reworded. But, the part of the disturbing twiches and postures does not need to be re-worded. It can be left as is.'''

"Rigor mortis begins to manifest after about 3 hours after death, and lasts about 72 hours. It then disappears as proteolytic enzymes from lysosomes break down the crossbridges; that is the myosin heads detach from the actin filaments. This is known as resolution of rigor." - '''The first sentence is absolutely perfect. It seriously does not need to be re-worded. The 2nd sentence....its still to hard to understand for someone who isnt experienced in the field.'''

"More specifically, what happens is that the membranes of muscle cells become more permeable to calcium ions. Living muscle cells expend energy to transport calcium ions to the outside of the cells. The calcium ions that flow into the muscle cells promote the cross-bridge attachment between actin and myosin, two types of fibers that work together in muscle contraction. The muscle fibers ratchet shorter and shorter until they are fully contracted or as long as the neurotransmitter acetylcholine and the energy molecule adenosine triphosphate (ATP) are present. However, muscles need ATP in order to release from a contracted state (it is used to pump the calcium out of the cells so the fibers can unlatch from each other). ATP reserves are quickly exhausted from the muscle contraction and other cellular processes. This means that the actin and myosin fibers will remain linked until the muscles themselves start to decompose.[1]" - '''Right after is says "More specifically," it just sreams "The more confusing, long answer of the above paragraph is..." This part needs to be re-written badly....'''

I'm sure your wondering "If you gave all these suggestions, why don't you re-write it?" Well....I known nothing about rigor. I came to this article and got even more confused what it is......I can't possibly write abot something I dont know......so take these suggestions as something from a reader's point of view. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.221.194 (talk) 02:03, 25 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I disagree with you. The biochemical process should be technical. It's the only way to ensure accuracy without covering every physiological process in Rigor mortis, many which are explained in other articles. However, the summary at the top of the page and the rest of the article should be the accessible portion. This way, the article provides accurate information to both laymen (and laywomen) but does not "dumb itself down" to do so. --72.207.17.89 (talk) 08:07, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Oh em gee. Not a doctor? Tough.
Along with the above poster, I came to this page and left more confused about what it was and what caused it than ever. Wiki has devolved into a collection of two types of pages -- error-filled fanboy rants and overly technical "look how much I know!" journal entries. The rigor mortis entry is laughably inaccessible except to those who already know what it is. Everyone still remembers what an encyclopedia IS...right?

Complete Layman section
Is this section really necessary? It seems a unnecessary addition to this article.204.16.225.100 (talk) 10:25, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Laughable "simple explanation"
I guess someone made a cursory attempt for a non-technical version with that list of three items under "simple explanation" --
 * Rigor Mortis is postmortem rigidity due to buildup of lactic acid and causing myosin and actin to harden.
 * Immediately following death-body is flaccid, followed by increasing rigidity due to lack of ATP and buildup of lactic acid.
 * Adenosine Triphosphate (ATP)-energy source produced in respiration in mitochondria of cells

The first item uses such pidgin grammar as to be totally incomprehensible; the second item uses the strange term "death-body," which is never explained; and the third isn't even a sentence. Add this to the fact that the entire section seems out of place in the larger article -- pasted in with no consideration for the material surrounding it -- and we have more evidence that the science pages of the Wiki leave no room for the layman. Would someone please take charge of this page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.139.144.66 (talk) 20:57, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Physiological Description is Incomplete
This article doesn't describe the role of Tropomyosin or Troponin in Rigor Mortis. Without this important function, the binding of the Myosin Heads to the Actin would not be possible.

"Triggering and Reversing a Muscle Contraction" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.207.17.89 (talk) 18:55, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Moving "Simple Explanation" to a Summary at the Top of the Page
I don't want to step on any toes, but I think for uniformity sake, maybe we should integrate the "Simple Explanation" section with the summary on the top of the page. This is the same thing they've done for Lung Cancer, Heart Attack, Stroke, and other more complete Health articles.

If it is too complicated to include in the article summary, but not complex enough to have without an additional title explaining it's lack of accuracy, then maybe it should be scrapped altogether. I'm down to do it either way. If anyone has got any other ideas, please go ahead and post in response to this.

I've also found some additional sources for the physiological reasoning behind Rigor Mortis, but it's currently being run through the Reliable Sources Noticeboard. I'll add it to the article as soon as I get it approved.

--72.207.17.89 (talk) 06:14, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Complete lack of information.
I got no information from coming to this page. There's only one paragraph that's actually about rigor mortis! Amazingly, the other half of the article is about the meat industry. While that section may belong on this page, it certainly doesn't make up half of what people want to know about rigor mortis. Please, someone who actually knows something about this topic, add some real information! Spock of Vulcan (talk) 01:04, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

The above comment was made about 6 years ago... and still much work is needed here. If you are a Doctor, please place down what you know. What we need, what would be desirable, is a) History of the development of knowledge concerning Rigor mortis; and, more importantly, b) a far more complete physiological explanation. (John G. Lewis (talk) 03:38, 16 May 2015 (UTC))

Quality citations needed
The biochemistry explanation is excellent, however it needs quality scientific citations of this information -not the circular websites (ones which drew their facts from here)! 69.108.2.230 (talk) 13:49, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Physically strenuous activity?; Lack of Clarity in the Article
Physically strenuous activity changes the duration of rigor mortis? So if the corpse goes jogging? What the hell does this mean? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.68.64.74 (talk) 09:03, 20 January 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree this could use some clarification, but I suspect it refers to "physically strenuous activity" at about the time of death. If the individual was running, exercising, vigorously struggling, etc., then there would be elevated levels of ATP in the muscle tissue. If such activity was a short time before death, there might be elevated levels of lactic acid. These would affect onset of rigor mortis. The reference could be to postmortem activity; not jogging, but in many cultures where embalming is not practiced, family members will flex and work the joints of the corpse's limbs and massage the muscles to prevent or reduce rigor mortis, so the body can be more easily arranged in the coffin. Hope this helps. Boneyard90 (talk) 07:07, 1 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Either explain it better or get rid of the "Physically strenuous activity" phrase. It's preposterous in its present state.  Even if "family members" are "flexing" the corpse, that is not strenuous for the corpse.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.149.64.255 (talk) 03:45, 29 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Are you addressing me? I did not write it, so I will not explain it better. My earlier reply was just exploring possible explanations. Boneyard90 (talk) 11:23, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree with the initial poster... perhaps on the specific point he was raising, this has been clarified, but his general criticism was that the article could be more precise in areas, more perspicuous. [Definitely, and I would say, generally more revealing]. Such as, and for instance, lower down in "Forensic Applications", and on a seemingly similar point, I could not understand upon first reading of the article (and really still do not): "If the body is moved after death, but before rigor mortis begins, forensic techniques such as Livor mortis can be applied." Can be applied for what? And for what reason? (...) It seems that the article, in some areas, speaks to the novice, in others to a Doctor, and tries to avoid speaking to Poeian characters, or in that vein. Anyway, this is poor writing; the whole article stands improvement. (John G. Lewis (talk) 04:00, 16 May 2015 (UTC))

Biochemistry
The biochemistry section says true things, but the mechanisms described aren't the mechanism of rigor mortis. Calcium and troponin are necessary for actin/myosin binding, but rigor mortis is a failure of UN-binding, which is a function of both ATP levels (binding an ATP is what causes a myosin to unbind actin) and calcium levels (higher Ca++ levels exposes more binding sites). And calcium levels are a function of ATP levels because ATP is required to pump calcium out of the cytoplasm, out of the cell or back into the sarcoplasmic reticulum.

After death, muscles deplete their existing ATP, and their phosphocreatine stores, in a few seconds. Then they raid their glycogen stores to make ATP, but they don't have an oxygen supply, so they have to use lactic acid fermentation. Meanwhile, the cell and sarcoplasmic membranes of dying myocytes gradually break down and become more permeable to calcium, which leaks into the cytoplasm and binds to troponin on actin filaments to expose binding sites. As cells run out of ATP, they lose their capacity to pump out the calcium. Without ATP to release it, each myosin that binds to actin gets stuck there, and most of the myosin has a place to bind because of the calcium glut in the cell. Rigor mortis.

173.25.54.191 (talk) 22:30, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

4 hours after death (Rigor Mortis)
Wrong.

The time of rigor mortis (muscle stiffening), depends on muscle mass and existing internal conditions and is distinct per species and distribution of chemicals and muscle mass. What you have here is an overal human specific and not a biological.

Small animals with less muscle mass can go into rigor 5 to 10 minutes after death. For some species/conditions there isn't any rigor at all. The duration of rigor is variant. Muscle relation can set in minutes after rigor.

Bloating of a corpse, with extensive extension of extremities, is not rigor, it's chemical decomposition and accumulation of gasses that pull skin and other components tight.

Depletion of oxygen sets in immediately after death, therefore rigor begins to set in immediately after death.

There is no straight uniform one answer, and no, one timeframe fits all, no matter how simplistic an answer some individuals might want to have. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.37.133.133 (talk) 13:55, 12 March 2017 (UTC)


 * If you can provide a high quality source I would be happy to improve the article. PriceDL (talk) 18:03, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

An article
"spreads to the other muscles" Shouldn't there be no article?--Adûnâi (talk) 04:12, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

Hours?
The article says both that rigor starts two hours and four hours after death. Please clarify. Anna (talk) 19:17, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Vandalism
Please put this page to some slight protection level. The Rick and Morty joke is HILARIOUS but I don't really think it should be here. It is not April 1. --CommieKarlovy (talk) 15:49, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

Retaining representative image
The image "File:People Dead 1991 in Sandwip.jpg", which is descriptive of the topic of rigor mortis, has been retained in the article after an attempt to remove it. Despite some feeling it as "graphic", I think it simply illustrates the idea of rigor mortis, the very subject of the article. Without the image, the idea would not be lucid to the reader. The image does not qualify Wikipedia's "Offensive images" category per MOS:IMAGES. I'm retaining this image in accord with MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE. Would like to know other editor's thoughts. Rasnaboy (talk) 03:31, 30 December 2020 (UTC)


 * I saw this after I made my edit. I had replied to another comment about it in the Talk section above. I agree that it is important to have an actual image in the article, but it is a rather distressing one. I have moved it to the See also section as a link, so that the reader is not confronted with it without warning. Crusoe704 (talk) 10:41, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://www.death reference.com/Py-Se/Rigor-Mortis-and-Other-Postmortem-Changes.html and https://health.howstuffworks.com/diseases-conditions/death-dying/rigor-mortis-cause2.htm. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.)

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Contradiction
The lead paragraph says that rigor mortis is the third "stage of death". But next door to it, Template:Signs of death says that rigor mortis is the fourth stage. --174.89.144.126 (talk) 10:05, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Please fix
"Rigor mortis" was changed throughout to something else. Seems disrespectful in conjunction with the photo. 67.182.112.193 (talk) 11:19, 1 February 2024 (UTC)