Talk:Rimsky-Korsakoffee House/Archive 1

Review
I have submitted a request for a copy edit by a member of the Guild of Copy Editors. Following that review, I intend to nominate the article for Good status. I hope that my work is a quality summary of how the company has been described in the media, and is not deemed promotional in nature. I have no COI to disclose, apart from the fact that I have been to this coffeehouse. I simply was curious about its history and the reported haunting, so I thought I would share my research on Wikipedia. Thanks! -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 22:38, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Is it worth mentioning that Ari Shapiro worked at the coffeehouse? -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 22:54, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
 * http://oregonmusicnews.com/2011/09/05/npr-correspondent-ari-shapiro-to-team-up-with-pink-martini-storm-large-pacific-youth-choir-oregon-symphony/
 * http://www.orsymphony.org/news/1112/110901_ors_pm.html


 * Yes, with a link and a one-sentence explanation of who he is. Finetooth (talk) 23:11, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
 * You might also mention what's scary about the bathroom, if you can find an RS for that. I haven't been to Rimsky for a while, so maybe the scary thing in the bathroom is no longer there. Finetooth (talk) 23:15, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the feedback. I'll see if I can find a detail to include for the bathroom, as most sources keep it a surprise and just stress the scare factor. Is there a particular location you would recommend adding the Shapiro sentence(s)? His employment is not specifically related to the subject's description or reception. -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 23:20, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Spoiling the surprise does raise an ethical question. On the other hand, the fact that the bathroom is unisex with an under-the-sea atmosphere doesn't seem to lead to the idea that it is scary. Our readers might wonder what's so scary about those things? On the matter of Shapiro, I think it would fit right before the sentence that starts "In her travelogues of Portland, Rachel Dresbeck..." in the "Reception" section. The sentence before this one mentions that the establishment is old, and this paragraph mentions "sassy waiters". Also, I don't think you need to wait for another copyedit but could proceed straight to GAN once you are satisfied that the article meets the other criteria. Finetooth (talk) 23:35, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Great. I added the Shapiro sentence per your suggestion, and I also found two WW readers poll sources in the process. (I was hoping to find a connection between Pink Martini/T. Lauderdale and the coffeehouse, without luck.) -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 00:25, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
 * As often happens, I change my mind while writing and move things around a lot. The Shapiro sentence seems out of place in the place I suggested and might work better as the very last sentence of the same paragraph. What do you think? Worse yet, I thought it best to do some more fact-checking vis-a-vis the claim that Bryant lived at some point in the Rimsky-Korsakoffee House. Michael Monk, who wrote The Oregon Encyclopedia piece I cited has a longer article, "Oregon Voices: The Romance of John Reed and Louise Bryant: New Documents Clarify How They Met", in the Fall 2008 issue (Vol. 109, No. 3) of the Oregon Historical Quarterly. You can get at the full document via the JSTOR wing of the online research compartment of the Multnomah County Library. In this article, Monk mentions the two Portland addresses for Bryant that he mentions in the Encyclopedia. The two certain addresses for her in Portland are her pre-marriage studio apartment at 1033 Southwest Yamhill Street and then her home with her first husband, Paul Trulliger, on Southwest Riverwood Road. There's no indication in the longer article that she ever lived at the address now known as the Rimsky-Korsakoffee House. However, Monk says that one Bryant-Reed biographer, citing an "informant", says that the couple was "formally introduced" in 1914 at "the home of Eva and Norma Graves (now the Rimsky-Korsakoffee House at 707 SE 12th Avenue)". This is one several conflicting accounts of where and how Bryant and Reed met, so there may or may not be any connection between the Rimsky-Korsakoffee House and Bryant. Other writers cited by Monk say the couple met elsewhere. Even though you have an RS (The Oregonian) for the Bryant-Korsakoffee claim, The Oregonian (Oregon Live) writer who made it used the weasel word, "supposedly" but failed to explain who supposed it or why we should believe it. I'd be very careful about making the Bryant claim, which looks shaky at best. Finetooth (talk) 03:42, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
 * First of all, many thanks for taking time to assist with a bit of research. What a fun trail to follow. I would advocate that we should not make a conclusion either way. What if we incorporate all of the information? I changed the text to the following: "In 2006, The Oregonian's Vivian McInerny wrote that the home, built in 1902,[7] is a supposed former residence of writer Louise Bryant.[1] Bryant and her second husband, John Reed, documented parts of the Russian Revolution in works such as her Six Months in Red Russia.[8] Contrastingly, Michael Munk's research for Oregon Historical Quarterly and The Oregon Encyclopedia confirmed two of Bryant's former addresses, neither of which matched the address for Rimsky-Korsakoffee House. According to Munk, one Bryant-Reed biographer claimed an "informant" was "formally introduced" in 1914 at "the home of Eva and Norma Graves (now the Rimsky-Korsakoffee House at 707 SE 12th Avenue)".[9]
 * Thoughts? I want to make sure that the wording does not suggest original research on our part and reflects Munk's own writing. -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 04:36, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, and I moved the Shapiro bit to the end of the paragraph. I do not think I will love the sentence at any location, but I think this might be the most appropriate given the sassy wait staff comment (apologies, Ari, if the order is not ideal!) . -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 04:48, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

In the cold light of morning, the whole Bryant business seems too much of a stretch here. You may want to read Monk's full-length article to see for yourself, but I think the existing Wikipedia article puts way too much emphasis on Bryant. The evidence of any connection with the Rimsky-Korsakoffee House appears to be slim (McInerny's "supposedly"), though my research efforts have not been what you would call "deep". There may be other evidence. What I would recommend, unless you find other evidence in support of McInerny's claim, is to remove all mention of Bryant from the lead, remove her image from the article, and mention only in passing that although an Oregon Live article suggests that she once lived in this house, evidence analyzed by Michael Monk in "Oregon Voices: The Romance of John Reed and Louise Bryant: New Documents Clarify How They Met" suggests that this was not the case. If you don't want to let go of Bryant, you might try tracking down info about Eva and Norma Graves or some of the other people mentioned in Monk's essay. My hunch, and it's only a hunch, is that Bryant might have known Eva and Norma Graves socially and might have set foot in their house on one or more occasions. Sorry to throw this tub of cold water your way so early in the day. Finetooth (talk) 18:29, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
 * No problem! I am not attached to any of the Bryant content in particular, but I do think it is worth including the possibility that she once lived in the house. I will remove the image of Bryant for now and see if I can work on the text later. -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 18:33, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
 * What do you think of the current wording? I removed the image and her name from the lead. -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 18:42, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Better. Meanwhile, I found another, more easily accessible article by Michael Monk, here, that says in part: "As we have already seen, Jack and Louise’s first meeting is subject of differing recollections and, especially after the impact of Reds, substantial mythology. Mary Dearborn uncritically insists they met in 1914, relying on Ms. Brownell Frasier’s account that they were formally introduced at the home of the Eva and Norma Graves, which still stands at 707 SE 12th Avenue. In fact, Bryant’s first biographer Virginia Gardner, just as mistakenly, quotes Miss Frasier as saying, "It was at Clara Wold’s house that Miss Frasier poured tea when Louise met John Reed." And so on. Reading this, you can see why I feel pretty certain that Bryant did not ever live in the Rimsky-Korsakoffee House. If she had, Monk and other historians would have been all over it. Finetooth (talk) 19:02, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Further on in this article, Monk names what appears to be (as nearly as anyone can work it out) all the places that Bryant lived in Portland. She moved to Portland from the University of Oregon in 1910 to an apartment on Southwest Yamhill (sharing a friend's apartment there before getting her own). After marrying Paul Trulliger later in 1910, she may have lived on his houseboat on the Willamette River, but she also continued to rent her studio on S.W. Yamhill. By 1914, the Trulligers were living in half of Paul Trulliger's uncle's house at 2226 NE 53rd Avenue before they moved to a new house in Dunthorpe in 1915. Finetooth (talk) 19:29, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks again for your thorough research. Do you think the text needs to be changed further, for any reason, or that the above marxists.org source should be incorporated into the article? -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 17:46, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I might suggest altering these sentences:

"However, evidence analyzed by Michael Munk's research for Oregon Historical Quarterly and The Oregon Encyclopedia suggests that this was not the case. According to Munk, one Bryant-Reed biographer claimed an 'informant' told her that the couple had been 'formally introduced' to one another in 1914 at 'the home of Eva and Norma Graves (now the Rimsky-Korsakoffee House at 707 SE 12th Avenue)'."
 * Would this do?

"However, evidence analyzed by Michael Munk for publication in Oregon Historical Quarterly and elsewhere lends no support to the idea that Bryant ever lived at 707 SE 12th Avenue and casts strong doubt on the idea that she met Reed there."
 * I think the Marxist site qualifies as reliable, but other editors might disagree. Here is the "About" page for the site, called the Marxists Internet Archive. I'd be inclined to add a citation to the Reed article in this archive because it is more thorough than the similar article in The Oregon Encyclopedia. I'd cite them both. Finetooth (talk) 18:47, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
 * ✅. This article just might be GAN-ready. -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 18:49, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I think it is ready. By the way, Munk is a retired political scientist, author of The Portland Red Guide, and otherwise interesting. See here. Finetooth (talk) 19:01, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Update: I have submitted this article for a Good article review (category = agriculture, food and drink). Still hoping for a copy edit review as well. Thank you for any assistance. -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 19:07, 6 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Tweaked a few citations (place of publication, title case) just now. Glad to help. Best of luck with the GAN. Finetooth (talk) 19:29, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks again. -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 19:45, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Picky question about page numbers in references

 * In the references, there are some Oregonian page numbers listed as "07" and "D01". Is this how the page numbers appear in the original source? I do not have access to the original sources, but that page number formatting seems unlikely. I have not changed it.

Also, is the word "to" missing from this Portland Mercury quote? "...slipped into a dimension similar [to] but not quite..." – Jonesey95 (talk) 05:17, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
 * The pages numbers are written as posted in the source. I would not include zeroes otherwise. Let me check on the Mercury quote. The Mercury quote also displays as printed. -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 15:55, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Having reviewed your edits to the article, I wish to thank you for your time and assisting. Your help is much appreciated. -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 16:02, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks Jonesey95 for the thorough copyedit. I entered The Oregonian citations. I believe the alphanumeric page designations show the page numbers within separate sections of the newspaper. That's how they appear in the original source, which I'm able to get at through the Multnomah County Library's on-line research section. (Any card-carrying user of the library can do the same.) If you want me to double-check any particularly suspicious detail, I'd be happy to do that. Just let me know. Finetooth (talk) 17:18, 28 January 2014 (UTC)