Talk:Rinoa Heartilly

As others have pointed out, for one side or another, this part of the article is slightly biased. It should not be ignored or excluded, but it should show both sides of the theory, instead of just some shaky evidence for one side presented as undeniable fact.

Fan Reaction section
I restored the racial criticism of the game, although it appears different from numerous (and helpful) changes that were made earlier. I would appreciate if whoever made those changes could try and restore some of them - the history is too long for me to find them all.

It should be noted (as many contributors on the FF series fail to recognize) that there are many factors that Americans overlook with the Americanized versions of the games. So far, I had to correct the articles on Zell, Seifer, and now Rinoa because contributors are ignorant of the racial and cultural divides that exist between Japan and America, and which are easily overlooked (or unrecognized) by individuals without proper cultural awareness. The Asian-Caucasian dating controversey is just one of these factors. I wouldn't expect an average American to be aware of this, but at the same time, they must defer to those of us who are. --L. 8 July 2005 16:48 (UTC)
 * A fair point, however the text as of the current version (to me) makes little sense and is sore need of a rewrite. Of the two paragraphs dealing with this issue, in the first I can't see any point being made at all (except perhaps an obtuse hint that the fans that state many later heroines have a more generic similar look are displaying racism towards the Japanese - if this is intended its needs stating more clearly, preferably without weasel words). Incidentally, exactly how many later heroines share this look? Apart from Yuna? =) The second paragraph is quite tortuous - sentence 2 particularly. I'd have a go at writing this if I only knew what the original intention was! >Gamemaker 17:37, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Uh, the "racial" comments in the article are unclear. Asian/Caucasian match-ups are "bad"? Either be specific or the section is pointless and, frankly, racist in its connotations.
 * I agree! If you're racist and against inter-racial match-ups, just say so instead of euphemising it in terms like "proper cultural awareness".  As an Asian female, I object to this being a so-called "controversy", as this is the 21st century and it is perfectly OK for Asians and whites to date.  Or "Asian-appearing" and "Caucasian-looking", however which you will.  The fans that object to it are racist, and there are plenty of racist opinions out there--but it doesn't mean they belong in an encyclopedia.   75.46.146.250 06:35, 1 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree that the stuff about "criticism along racial lines" should either be cited (so people can go check the sources of this criticism) or be deleted. What exactly is the criticism or controversy?  That Rinoa looks Asian?  Is this controversy?  In my opinion, she does look Asian (actually, I am fully convinced she's half-Asian half-Caucasian, heh).  And Squall definitely looks Caucasian.  But, so what's the controversy there?  If there was some fan segment that was concerned that advanced computer graphics would make characters identifiable as a member of a certain human race, that's fine - but it needs to be cited.  Because in the article right now, no controversy is being identified, except the unexplained implication that people (labeled as "accusers" in the article right now) have something against Asian-looking characters.  But I do believe this topic of racial appearance of animated characters is interesting for anyone into Japanese popular culture. Kenumay 05:52, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Since subsequent changes to this material were still weaselly, gramatically tortuous and badly linked, I've had a go at rewriting it. I hope it covers the relevant matters concisely and with NPOV. There's a case for whether this material needs to be there at all, but while it is, it may as well read well =) >Gamemaker 13:11, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
 * It looks good; this needs to be done for almost every "fan reaction" or "criticism" section out there, methinks. Deckiller 14:12, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Antisociality
The bit where Squall is referred to as 'antisocial' is incorrect- antisocial people like to harm others rather than avoid them. Would 'unsocial,' 'avoident,' or 'schizoid' better describe him?Eowynjedi 01:24, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Harming people is only a secondary meaning of the word. Primarily it just refers to a reluctance to mix socially with other people. >Gamemaker 13:18, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Aye, but as it's an official psychological disorder, it makes the statement somewhat inaccurate. Eowynjedi 21:32, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think being antisocial means having antisocial personality disorder; being antisocial is a trait but APD is a disorder that causes this trait. --70.25.168.90 22:57, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I still think it's a misuse of the word. It's like saying someone with a head cold has the flu when the flu is much more serious. Eowynjedi 22:31, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * 'Antisocial' still exists as a word in its own right, but I'm not precious about the word being there, to be honest =) 'Unsocial' ('unsociable' is perhaps the better form) is a decent alternative. >Gamemaker 13:59, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll go ahead and edit it then. (Little errors like that bug me.) Eowynjedi 16:32, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Well uhh... the criminal law has sections for "antisocial behaviour", and I think the fact that Squall is being referred to as Antisocial rather than Unsocial, would fit the misunderstanding of him from others. :P Zerocannon

Squall is antisocial. He doesn't want to have any relationships with anyone. Unsocial doesn't cut it. -Eileen-

Rinoa Clone
At some point, this article mentioned how later Final Fantasy heroines have the same generic Rinoa look. I mean this is a PART of the Final Fantasy community. It doesn't matter if you don't agree with it; this is an actual issue, a pretty big criticism of Square-Enix. Google in "Rinoa clone" sometime. I think it should be included in the article.

This isn't important. It shouldn't be included. -Eileen-

Rinoa's existence in the KH series
I made an entry about Rinoa in the KH series. It is worth mentioning that she exists in that series, even though she didn't make an official appearance. NeoSeifer


 * We don't know that for sure. The only thing that could even hint at her existence in the KH universe is the wings, and that is shaky evidence at best. They aren't even the right shape, if you look close enough. I've edited the article to include this information, and reworded it so that it is not written as fact.


 * Rinoa is clearly shown in the opening hours of gameplay of Kingdom Hearts II. Therefore, the statement related to this discussion is void and shall be rectified.


 * It's an obvious reference to Rinoa. Why would they make Squall open up a letter with a butterfly or some random set of wings coming out of it? Come on. NeoSeifer


 * And the wings are shaped more like the wings on Squall's jacket, not like the ones on Rinoa's sweater. Look:


 * As you already know, these are the wings on Rinoa's sweater (you may need to copy and paste this url address):
 * http://jomelltan.tripod.com/rinoa_wings.jpg


 * Now, here is a video of Kingdom Hearts. Look at the wings on Squall's jacket (2:04-2:05):
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWIZazM9r2M


 * Now, for Rinoa's wings insignia during the credits of Kingdom Hearts II (2:59-3:02):
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uyLz97fr3Y


 * All in all (even though they are shaped differently), the wings on Squall's jacket are a reference to Rinoa herself. And Rinoa isn't "clearly shown in the opening hours of gameplay of Kingdom Hearts II". Making up things doesn't help. NeoSeifer


 * Except that she's seen in her FF8 outfit. Oh, wait. That's right: she didn't speak out her name loudly. Same as Squall, of course: that person is called ... "Leon" ... so there are obviously no connections between Squall and Kingdom Hearts either.

Be that as it may, these are all theories. While they do have a place on the page, they should not be stated as out-and-out fact. Only when Rinoa actually makes an appearance or is explicitly alluded to can this be considered factual.


 * She makes an appearance. Only people who didn't play the game wouldn't know this, because it's impossible or simply unnecessary to take screenshots and video captures of the **entire** game and put those on web folders.


 * God, you can't be that stupid. I played KH2 and I know for a fact that she isn't in it. Why do people insist that she is? And as for the person that posted below my previous post, get your facts straight. That person named "Leon" is still Squall Leonhart. If you bothered to pay attention to the story (if you even played the game, that is), you would know that Squall changed his name to "Leon", because he felt that he was weak for not protecting his home Hollow Bastion (aka Radiant Garden) from the Heartless many years ago. He didn't want be weak anymore like his "former self" (who couldn't protect his home), so he changed his name to "Leon". NeoSeifer

Heroine
I put back "the heroine" instead of "one of the heroines" since FFVIII is Squall's and her story. -Eileen-


 * No, it isn't just her story. Yes, she's a primary character, but she is still one of three (arguably four) heroines. I've changed it to "primary character," which should stand well as a neutral means of referencing her. Peptuck 02:33, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Well how can Quistis and Selphie can heroines if they fade into the background after disc 2 when the game focuses on Squall and Rinoa's relationship? They are heroic but I wouldn't call them heroines because the game doesn't focus on them, Edea's possessed for alot of the game and Ellone is absent for much of it on the White SeeD ship. How about this: Keep her article as heroine and put the others as primary characters, making them important since she's more important storywise? Could we please? I don't want an edit war. I just wrote heroine because it simplier to spell and takes up less space. I'd use simple words for the same effect, regardless of whether it is "encyclopedic". Plus it is not original research. -Eileen-

"I'd use simple words for the same effect, regardless of whether it is "encyclopedic"."
 * Unfortunately, that's not our call to make. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. Articles must maintain encyclopedic language, and "heroine" is not encyclopedic as it stands. I've altered the article to use "heroine" but instead as heroine. Peptuck 23:02, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually that is exactly what I had in mind. We must think similarly. -Eileen-

How about we call Rinoa "the heroine" and Quistis and Selphie "a main character or heroine"? (Feel free to choose or suggest a new idea). I'm suggesting this so no one is shoved aside but Rinoa is the heroine (to emphasis her importance in the story as the female lead). Are you ok with this? I also think we should also do this with the guys too (Squall, Zell and Irvine.) -Eileen-
 * "Heroine" is not NPOV. It is not appropriate for an encyclopedic article. Peptuck 06:30, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Good article nomination
I've reviewed the article and it appears to pass the GA criteria. I made a few tiny edits, but overall, a job well done. MahangaTalk to me 03:39, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

1a: pass b: pass c: weak pass. It does not seriously violate the MOS for writing fiction, but the article could be improved in that area.

2a: pass b: pass c: pass

3a: pass b: pass

4a: pass b: pass

5: pass

6: pass (I added fair use rationale for the image)


 * Thanks! Might I ask what in particular should be worked on in relation to the WAF MOS? &mdash; Deckiller 03:45, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Improving the article
I love this article. Thanks Deckiller for working so hard on it. Here is what I think should be added to the article:

1. Sheila's site about Rinoa. I normally don't like fanlistings and they usually shouldn't be in articles but I think there should be an exception for this one because it is exceptionally well done and the author doesn't use her opinions very often.

2. Rinoa's Asian looking features.

That is my opinion. -Eileen-


 * I can't say anything about the fansite, since I'm not familiar with it, but I don't think we should include stuff about Rinoa's asian features. Firstly, the ethnicities of the characters in FF8 are never explicitly stated anywhere, so if we say Rinoa's asian that'd be original research and opinion.  Secondly, does it really matter whether Rinoa looks asian?  Bhamv 03:48, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

It's true it doesn't really matter. I just noticed that she looks a little Asian, at least her eyes do. -Eileen-
 * I recall that the developers sincerely wanted to make her look European but somehow ended up having an Asian-looking character and calling that good enough. I hesitate to add that as of yet because I don't have a proper citation for it in front of me, though. Axem Titanium 21:09, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I've heard that but your right still don't have a source. Are you gonna try to find one? -Eileen-


 * Hi, I'm not sure how to post here. Rinoa is not Asian. She's meant to look European as are her parents. My site also has never mentioned that Rinoa is Asian, ever. Quite the opposite. I constantly point out that FF8 has Asians (Kadowaki, Xu) and Rinoa is Galbadian. Nomura describing all of the main FF8 cast design (along with sources listed) is translated here. http://flaregamer.com/b2article.php?p=81&more=1 If there's anything else that needs clarification, please let me know. Thanks.

On top of this racial issue, it all seems terribly relative. As a Chinese person, I view most of Square-Enix's CG'd characters as having distinctive Japanese style and features, even if they aren't intended to be Japanese, per se (i.e. Tidus, Selphie, Rinoa, Quistis) and I attribute that mainly to models that are more than likely going to be Japanese/Asian.Luminum (talk) 11:35, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

criticism?
i'm not really sure if this is the right place or way to mention this, but, in my experience rinoa is a very "controversial" character in terms of her popularity. i.e, a lot of people find her annoying, and she's often cited as one of the most annoying characters in the ff series, etc., etc. however, her "criticism" section is basically devoid of any of that - it only mentions various people that do like her. i'm not sure, but, it seems to me like the negative reaction to her is also worth mentioning...? 67.189.241.139 (talk) 03:24, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Something like that would have to be cited, otherwise it falls into the realm of opinion and is not NPOV. Is there an external reliable source that mentions how people find her annoying?  Bhamv (talk) 05:02, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Rinoa and Ultimecia?
I thought it was a rather well circulated theory that Rinoa and Ultimecia are alluded to being the same individual in the game. Though nothing was ever officially stated by Square-Enix, is it worth mentioning the relationship and the possible in-game references? I was surprised to see no discussion about it on this page and no reference to it under Ultimecia's profiel or Rinoa's.

Some major indicators:

1) GF's can come from rings (i.e. Solomon Ring and Doom Train) and Squall's ring is named at the beginning of the game (Griever) and the name carries to Ultimecia's final summon.  The person who has the ring during the game is Rinoa, who is given the ring and its copy by Zell and never returns it to Squall during the game.

2) Ultimecia's castle is located in the field of flowers where Rinoa promises to meet Squall if she ever gets lost.  Though Ultimecia never explains this, it could be subconscious, based upon the promise and years of memory loss due to a GF.

3) Ultimecia actively pursues Seifer in the past.  I they are the same individual, and if GF's do indeed cause memory damage, an aged Rinoa/Ultimecia could look at Seifer and see him as Squall based on not only the gunblade and scar, but the fragmented memories of Rinoa's past relationship with Seifer.  As well she chooses him as her knight, which may be reciprocal from Squall swearing to be Rinoa's knight.

4) Ultimecia's final speech upon her defeat talks about loss and the fleetingness of time, possibly a reference to a now deceased Squall.

5) Both Ultimecia and Rinoa share a feather motif; Rinoa's being white and Ultimecia's being black.

6) During the final scene when Squall is lost in time compression, views of Rinoa are consistently superimposed on Ultimecia.  If time is compressed, then looking at an individual should show all forms of that person past and present, and thus, looking at Rinoa would reveal Ultimecia.  A final shot of a faceless Squall points to his future death possibly inspiring Rinoa's change to Ultimecia.  The realization of what Rinoa may become may result in the tears Squall cries at the end.

7) If Squall dies on a mission, it may be the reason why a future, muddled Rinoa might hate SeeD and SeeDs.

Basically, Ultimecia is a GF-memory muddled Rinoa bent on time compression who cannot remember the initial reasons for her quest nor can any longer recall her friends of the one she really loved, only the key vestiges of that past: SeeDs, gunblade-wielder as knight, field of flowers, Griever. Not all of these points stand up well on their own, but seem to make a strong case when corroborate with one another. I also recall emailing a Square-Enix employee and getting the statement that there was nothing oficial, but that he personally felt it was one of the better theories out there. Consider it?Luminum (talk) 11:52, 22 December 2007 (UTC)


 * For the most part, the theory is simply speculation without much backing in real in-game evidence. Furthermore, being a fan theory, it would need credible sources to back it up if were to even be included on Wikipedia without it being original research.


 * Personally, I think its looking too deeply into stuff that isn't really there. A lot of the theory focuses on specific interpretations of scenes whose meaning is either deliberately obtuse or simply have a wide range of explanations, and some of them have extremely flimsy backing. For example, Squall's ring containing Griever is next to meaningless, as there's no indication that Squall's ring is special in any way. Certainly nothing says it is the same as the Solomon Ring. Most of the other examples usually offered also focus on "maybes" and "possibly."


 * There just simply isn't any concrete evidence of the R-U theory, which is my main objection to it. There's quite a bit of wiggle room for circumstancial evidence, but this relies on an individual's interpretation of particular abstract and symbolic events, which I personally do not like putting much weight into. Peptuck (talk) 06:50, 23 December 2007 (UTC)


 * While it's true that there isn't any official evidence for the theory, it seems to render a key part of the game completely flippant if it isn't true. If the naming of the ring in the beginning of the game has no bearing to the fact that Ultimecia's final summon is the exact same name as the one you give the ring, then why is it included?  It seems frivolous.


 * Looking at the final FMV with tis near 5-6 seconds of superimposed images of only Rinoa and Ultimecia flashing by also seems like a non-sequitor if the theory doesn't hold. The theory itself seems to give Ultimecia depth as a final boss instead of more or less being a randomly third-act introduced mastermind (though, I admit, Square did the same with IX and Necron).


 * The imagery and indicators in the game may seem obtuse, but without an explanation, they would merely be frivolous and lacking in cohesiveness. Not to mention that the theory, despite being a "fan theory" is significant enough that individuals familiar with FFVIII also mostly know of the theory (and its criticisms).  It seems odd that with a goal of being comprehensive of the subject in question, that no mention, even objectively about the theory itself is ever made.  I understand taking things at face value, and that creating the article with only the given facts is one goal of Wiki.  But the theory itself is a real and, due to its prominence and controversy, large attachment to the subject, just as "fan's reactions to Rinoa" is a real and large part of the subject.Luminum (talk) 10:27, 23 December 2007 (UTC)


 * In the Japanese version of the game Ultimecia mentions, during the final battle, that she's drawing Griever from Squall's mind. She's taking what he believes to be the most powerful creature, and turning it into an opponent for him.


 * Looking at your seven points, I see lots of "could", "could be", "possibly", "if" etc. Does that not indicate that these conclusions are based on speculation and original research?  And while I do agree that the "Rinoa is Ultimecia" theory is interesting and quite a large part of FF8 fanlore, it cannot be included in Wikipedia without verifiable reliable sources cited.  This is the difference between the "reaction and criticism" section and a section about the theory; the "reaction and criticism" section is cited as required. Bhamv (talk) 14:47, 23 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Conceded.Luminum (talk) 21:23, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Well if this would be true. Then there would be a reason to make a movie out of FF8 as a continuing storyline. But thats just my theory. It will propably never happen, We can allways hope or dream about it.

Afterall. It is stated false —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.233.247.10 (talk) 20:38, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Nojima quote
I'd paraphrase and move this quote elsewhere czar ♔   13:43, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

Notability
So this is another one of the Niemti articles. Based on the exhaustive sourcing, I don't see how this character is independently notable. The closest we get is that quote that Rinoa's name is unforgettable. The rest of the list mentions are passing mentions and don't constitute significant coverage for the general notability guideline. I can go on, but I would propose that the prose be greatly condensed and then merged as a major section back into the FF8 characters article. czar 14:23, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Ok, if it's already been checked, I don't mind. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 17:10, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Not opposed; she's not the most iconic character, even from her own game, as evidenced by the pretty short development section and the usual Niemti mountain-out-of-a-series-of-molehills reception section. -- Pres N  20:56, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I really don't think much debate is going to happen on this point, so let's have User:Czar go ahead and get it merged if he is willing. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 07:09, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Went ahead and did it myself. -- Pres N  16:29, 16 February 2016 (UTC)