Talk:Riot grrrl/Archive 1

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Violence
The "violence" at shows was a total myth. At the "Free to Fight" festival in Portland, the organizers themselves circulated a flyer that said, "Put Women in their Place", then used the stage to make an announcement about it, leading attendees to think some rogue male was right there in the concert hall, propagandizing against them! This was so bald-faced it was ridiculous. Basically, it was a way to excuse the militancy of the riot grrl movement. This small group of female scenesters bullied their way onto bills, record labels, and media, with no more substance than any other mediocre "political" garage band. . . and for a few years they got away with it. They did nothing for women's issues beyond token donations to charities and did a lot more damage making women in politics seem irrational, hysterical, and self-promoting. Bands like the Slits, Runaways, Kleenex, Pink Champagne, Chalk Circle ect. deserve the credit for carving women a place in rock music. Riot Grrl reduced that niche to a ridiculous cliche and stripped it of all musical value. . . play Bikini Kill (supposedly the "leaders") next to any of the literally hundreds of all female or part female pre-hardcore/riot grrrl bands and you'll hear what I mean. In none of these pages is there any real evidence of anti-"grrl" violence and we shouldn't be pretending there was just so their extremism can be justified. Meanwhile, millions of working-class and third world women suffer while their "champions" strut and pose, ironically popping about. 76.27.232.185 (talk) 20:19, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

[edit] F —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.27.232.185 (talk) 20:23, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

no mention of...
This is useless without the mention of Courtney Love and or Hole. Plus, how could you forget the GITS?? Hello!! Mia Zapata?. (unsigned comment left by User:Vancejamal)
 * It is somewhat hard to say what defines a band or individual as having been part of the riot grrl movement. Courtney Love did not play shows with bands that were part of the movement, did not participate in the zine conference, and in fact was antagonistic to many of the people involved in the movement.  As far as I know, the Gits did not participate in the movement either.  --Larrybob 23:41, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

i wouldnt include any of them either. they happen to be females who happened to play music but they didnt contribute a thing in the social movement aspect. i think courtney spent more time mocking the movement in the mass media than anything. and wow, larrybob, havent talked to u in ages but yea, larrybob knows alot of ppl who were involved and their contributions. somewhere tho in this article, there needs to be a mention of lucy thane imho cuz she took it from xerox zines to video and whats-her-name julie? jesus its been so long i cant remember her last name, the other one who made one of the first indie videos with kathleen and them bouncing around with sailor suits on. my memory sucks but im sure larrybob or matt wobensmith would remember the names/videos cuz she had a really good zine and band. just nother nobody who put on shows, traded zines and junk a long time ago...

-- Do those photos add anything to the article? Their placement is certainly dreadful. -- Jwrosenzweig

Hope you like my changes to the pictures. I like the article. What do you think about the classification of Riot Grrrl as a feminist political/musical movement rather than as just a style of music? There was certainly a lot more going on during Riot Grrrl than just music. --Dwiki 22:38, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

"riot grrl" vs. "riot grrrl"
most of the girls i know who were involved and invested in it during its heyday prefer the spelling "riot grrrl." even within this entry, we don't use a consistent spelling. would anyone support moving this entry to "riot grrrl" and leaving "riot grrl" as a redirect? (i'm willing to do the clean-up, if so.) - Esk

"riot grrrl" has 20,900 Google hits "riot grrl has 31,800 Google hits Saul Taylor 15:31, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

hm, yeah, "grrl" seems to be more common now on the internet. but it's been my impression that it was a later mutation of "grrrl." considering how quickly r.g. was co-opted and made into an "almost meaningless media catchphrase," i dunno how meaningful that statistic is. some links:

article by mimi nguyen, from punk planet #40, late 2000 "riot grrrl" by kathleen hanna, from bikini kill zine #2 (?), early '90s riot grrrl retrospective museum collection, from seattle's experience music project current incarnations of the riot grrrl dc and riot grrrl nyc chapters academic bibliography and resources focused on "grrrl zines" Esk 00:10, 2004 Mar 11 (UTC)

Animal Rights and Grrrls
According to Carol Adams in The Sexual Politics of Meat (ISBN 0826411843) animal rights are a gender issue. Hyacinth 03:17, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Riot_grrl"

And occasionally a grrrl issue, but it wasn't a major orientation. LeTigre (a riot grrrl spin-off) has been promoting animal rights lately, if you see their website. But I don't think animal rights should appear in the wikipedia article on riot grrrl. --Dylanfly 15:06, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

riot grrrl in Portuguese
I translated for the Portuguese some parts of this text.

Ana

Article name
Should the G be capitalized? Wiki Wikardo 22:50, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Which ever way it is, it should be consistant. At the moment, the title is capitalized but every other time the name appears in-text the 'grrrls' part isn't. I would have though the G would be capitalized in general, but in the article it is not, so I assume there must be a reason for this. if this is true then the title should be a lower case g. ArdClose (talk) 19:59, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

the thingy about influences
they are all sourced - from various interviews, zines, and reviews, i just don't remember from wheres - like aretha franklin might sound odd, but i've heard her mentioned as an influence in 3 separate riot grrrl interviews, one w/ kathleen hanna, one w/ corin tucker, and one w/ nikki of huggy bear - they're all important, and they're all artists that in some cases i wouldn't even have heard of if not for these zines and interviews, so the idea should be to look for the sources (which believe me, do exist) instead of chopping em off to sacrifice to the evil gods of the "citation needed nazis". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.65.86.134 (talk)


 * They might "have sources" but they're not sourced as of yet. It's not things like Aretha Franklin that I'm worried about.  It's things like Thee Headcoatees, which, tho they're a good band, I highly doubt they can be said to have been an influence on riot grrrl.  Contemporaries, definitely, but influence?  Doubtful.  When you have a long list with vague citations, you end up getting "listcreep" where random names get inserted that aren't necessarily right or appropriate.  People tend to scrutinize a long list a lot less cuz when you see that block of text, a lot of people's eyes glaze over and don't look that closely.  It's vaguely tolerable when people who have some knowledge are watching the article, but it can turn ugly once they stop watching and the article tends to get progressively less accurate.  And I've seen people try to pass some outlandish names into that list.

like who, (just askin, not arguing)?


 * The list section that bugs me the most actually is the bit in "Legacy" where it basically says that any independent female band is necessarily a continuation of riot grrrl. I think if a band's going to be included in that list they should have a source that says they were actually influenced by riot grrrl instead of just assuming.  Just assuming qualifies as original research.  Although, really, a lot of this article qualifies as original research.

yeah, thats why i changed it so it doesn't say those bands are "riot grrrl" necessarily, it just says "many of the diy elements promoted by the movement endure". there were plenty of all-women bands in the period even who were plenty independent and political like 7 year bitch or spitboy, they just didn't identify with the label, they saw it as uncomfortably "separatist" or "divisionary", which i think someone should add, maybe right below the part in the ipu con section where it lists the other bands associated therewiths. i didnt put that section in there anyways, i just put in "revolution grrrl style now", ipu con, concerts and conflict (nice alliteration, eh?), and riot grrrl in fiction


 * Also, I just don't think it makes for a good article just having that list there. It seems like every band that any member of a riot grrrl band cited as influencing them is getting put into there.  It'd be much better to prune it to a few artists that are commonly cited and explain why or how they might've influenced riot grrrl.  If there's going to be a long list, it should go towards the end of the article or maybe even in a separate article IMO.  It's not a bad intention to want to pass along bands that you think are good or whatever, but the point of the article is to talk about riot grrrl.


 * As for the "citation needed nazis", expect to find a lot of them, as it is Wikipedia policy. See WP:A.  The only way to ensure an accurate article is for it to be well-cited, and the only way readers are going to know if the article is accurate is if it's well-cited.  --notJackhorkheimer (talk / contribs) 04:37, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

also the article is gettin kinda long, (speaking as the person who put all that stuff there), the only thing i can really think to cut would be the bios on bk and bratmobile, which don't really belong there anyway, someing else should be put there tho, i don't mean just cut it, there was plenty of stuff said in the don't need you herstory of riot grrrl doc which could go there much more betterly — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.65.86.134 (talk)


 * Well, an obvious solution to the length problem is to trim the lists or move them elsewhere... (especially the zine section which is really long)

yeah i know, it was just to make that point that it really was an "explosion"


 * I don't think cutting out sections on BK and Bratmobile is a good idea. Just keep a bit about how they're relevant to the riot grrrl movement.


 * Seems to me that the biggest space-waster in the article is the really long quotes. I think you could keep what the quotes are trying to say but just keep the part that's the heart of what's being said and cut some of the excess.


 * Just a random point, but could you sign your comments with the four ~ tilde things? It lets others know who's saying what without having to comb through the page history.  --notJackhorkheimer (talk / contribs) 04:37, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

i don't know how

Fair use rationale for Image:Riot Grrrl.jpg
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Who Coined Term "Riot Grrrl"?
Over at the Tobi Vail article, Tobi Vail claims that she coined the term "riot grrrl," but there is no mention of Tobi Vail at this article. Who coined this term? Does anybody know -- and more importantly can they provide a citation? Griot 18:33, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I have heard that Kathleen Hanna coined the term and I've heard that Tobi or Allison Wolfe coined the term. --Grrrlriot (talk) 22:46, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

It was the name of a zine... see: http://youtube.com/user/mondotrasho208.120.251.174 (talk) 18:17, 19 May 2008 (UTC)RD

The Runaways might have used the term "Riot Girl" in their 1976 song "Cherry Bomb." It sounds like "Hello world, I'm your riot girl." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMDn6V7ZLhE Although in some versions, it's clearly "wild girl". 206.64.224.128 (talk) 15:44, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I just watched "Don't Need You: The Herstory of Riot Grrrl" and the interview subjects (most of them members of the central bands or zines) seemed to suggest that it grew not only in reference to male-dominated mosh pits and rock shows and the violence that sometimes accompanied them, but specifically race riots that were occuring in Wash DC 1991. "Uses and meanings of the phrase "riot grrrl" developed slowly over time, but its origins can be traced to racially-charged riots in Washington D.C.'s Mount Pleasant neighborhood during the spring of 1991. Writing in Dance of Days: Two Decades of Punk in the Nation's Capital, Mark Andersen reports early Bratmobile member Jen Smith (later of The Quails) reacting to the riots by writing, "This summer's going to be a girl riot." There was also someone else in the zine scene who would always use "grrrl" in place of girl for almost everything, and one issue that person (sorry I forget who) published an entry that declared "a riot grrrl is..." and the phrase eventually was adopted.  Izauze (talk) 19:31, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Riot Grrrl Portal
Should there be a riot grrrl portal? Any comments or ideas? --Grrrlriot (talk) 20:01, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Should Riot Grrrl Be Re-Written?
I think this article needs to be re-wrote. It doesn't cite many references/sources. It has a trivia section and they are discouraged from wikipedia. It isn't rated as a good article, Just as a "start" article. If this article needs to be re-written, I would be willing to do it. If you have any ideas for re-writing the article (like certain areas/sections that should be covered about the movement or sources/references to use), Leave a message on my talk page. Thanks! --Grrrlriot (talk) 17:45, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Subcategory/Task Force of Feminism
If you want more information or if you think you would be interested in participating, Take a look here: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Gender_Studies or stop by my talk page and let me know. Thanks! --Grrrlriot (talk) 03:01, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

International Pop Underground Convention
Why does this appear on the Riot Grrrl article? It should appear in a different article called International Pop Underground Convention. --Grrrlriot (talk) 00:44, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

second wave?
The article starts:

"is often associated with third-wave feminism (it is sometimes seen as its starting point). However, riot grrrl's emphasis on universal female identity and separatism often appears more closely allied with second-wave feminism than with the third wave.[1] "

But a major part is the sex positivity of it and women being able to talk about "universal" parts of female identity that weren't as talked about before. That's distinctly 3rd wave!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-positive_feminism

Kathleen Hanna was a stripper... 208.120.251.174 (talk) 18:22, 19 May 2008 (UTC)RD sorry I dont have a username, will work on it...

Riot grrrl and Digital hardcore
I'm in the midst of a discussion over at digital hardcore regarding riot grrrl as a stylistic origin for digital hardcore. If anyone around here would like to lend their expertise in this matter, it might be helpful. The discussion is here. Aryder779 (talk) 00:52, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Tony the Tiger
Various people seem to be adding unreferenced mentions of Tony the Tiger. This might be an attempt at humor regarding the similarity of Tony's signature grrrowl and the multiple Rs in Riot Grrrl, but unless someone has a reference that this was an influence or is in some relevant way related to Riot Grrrl I would suggest continuing to revert attempts to insert this item.--Larrybob (talk) 00:24, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Riot Grrl Chapters
It would be interesting to start listing the known local and regional chapters of Riot Grrl. For a while there were meetings in many cities that were very much like 2nd wave consciousness raising groups. I could look around for sources, maybe look through a pack of zines and if they declare themselves to be from Riot Grrl San Antonio, add that to the list & source it to the zine. I've looked for a list like this on the web for years and never found one.--Lizzard (talk) 02:44, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Portland?
As someone who participated at the time, albeit from a distance in upstate NY, I don't remember anyone in Portalnd having anything to do with the origins of riot grrl. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.58.214.226 (talk) 08:54, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Okay, but what IS riot grrrl?
Riot girl was a movement with a message, wasn’t it? So what was the philosophy? What was the message? It looks like that’s been crowded out of the article altogether by editors intent on affirming the movement’s supposed cultural influence. — TheHerbalGerbil (TALK, 12:06, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

added band Dickless
I thought the band Dickless would qualify as a riot grrrl band. I added them to the opening list of riot grrrl bands. Please read the Dickless. Note the obvious satire in the band name. I added a ref link, too.

I don't think Dickless intentionally set out to be overtly political yet they were satirically critical of derogatory attitudes toward women. I hope the primary article maintainers agree.

J_Tom_Moon_79 (talk) 23:55, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Proposed merge with New age riot grrrl
Sub-activism of Riot grrrl without enough reliable references to form an individual page. Benfold (talk) 17:19, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Clearly not sufficient for a page. Is there any evidence it exists at all?--  SabreBD  (talk ) 18:47, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Jack Off Jill
JOJ, an alternative/gothic group, wasn't a Riot grrrl band. They didn't identify themselves with it, and their style and lyrics wasn't particularly in line with such bands/the movement. Babes in Toyland, a female band they're often compared to, were not associated with the Riot grrl movement either.

Jack Off Jill should be removed from the RG association, and placed under the Media Misconceptions section; "As media attention increasingly focused on Grunge and Alternative Rock in the early nineties, the term "Riot Grrrl" was often applied to less political female alternative rock acts such as 7 Year Bitch, Babes in Toyland, The Breeders, The Gits, Hole, L7, PJ Harvey, Veruca Salt, and even No Doubt" --Lpdte77 (talk) 19:32, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Transphobic bullsh*t about Le Tigre
Michfest has a bad policy but given that they've been around since the 70s they don't count as a "later event." The constant association between Le Tigre and Michfest likewise ignores Le Tigre's (and the Riot Grrrl scene in general) association with trans* friendly festivals, such as LadyFest, which was founded by a number of Riot Grrrls, including Sleater-Kinney. Eriol11 (talk) 09:40, 8 September 2014 (UTC) Eriol11

Unless I've missed something
Riot Grrl was a point in music history. Why are all these modern bands being added? Any objection to removing them? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.232.95.193 (talk) 03:33, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Need some help on Bratmobile reference
Does anyone know who is speaking when they say "It was a really hippie town, and we were getting really politicized, but also really into this DIY thing, so we kinda started creating. 'Let's make our own fanzine!'" ? It's in the Bratmobile section and sourced to: Raha, Maria; Gordon, Kim (2004). Cinderella's Big Score: Women of the Punk and Indie Underground. Emeryville, CA: Seal Press. ISBN 978-1-58005-116-3. Does anyone have this book? Could you find out who is speaking and make it clearer in the article? Thanks in advance, future editor! Owlsmcgee (talk) 21:40, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Legacy: uncited material
Removed this uncited material from the "Legacy" section: "Some just listen to riot grrrl bands while others form or join bands themselves, slowly paving the way for fulfillment of one of the goals of original riot grrrl – increasing the number and significance of women in alternative music and music in general." Please help us source this for inclusion in the article. Thanks, Aolivex (talk) 18:51, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 one external links on Riot grrrl. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20150904032740/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJmvaPdPG5Y to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJmvaPdPG5Y&mode=related&search=
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20130719142124/http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw3aIijPXws to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw3aIijPXws

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 04:35, 26 February 2016 (UTC)