Talk:Rise of the Cybermen

One page or two?
OK, we should talk this out. While we're waiting for the name of the second part, do we want the Rise of the Cybermen page to cover the two parts of the story, or just the first episode? Obviously, once we have the second episode's name it will have its own page, just like Aliens of London and World War Three. I can see the argument for following the one-episode pattern established in the 2005 season, but since it will be several months before we know specifically what details should go on the part 1 and part 2 pages, I think that for now we can leave the info for both episodes on one page. But I don't feel strongly about it, and could probably be convinced the other way by a persuasive argument. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 15:57, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
 * If we split into two pages, we'll wind up with basically a duplicate entry, since we have no idea what story elements are in part one and which story elements are in part two. We're already reaching that situation (kind of) with Army of Ghosts and Doomsday. I think it's best to keep it in one until there's a good reason to split it. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 16:40, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Makes sense to me. I should clarify that I wasn't thinking that we should actually create the second page now — I was mainly referring to the recent edits over whether the infobox should refer to the as-yet-untitled Part 2 or The Idiot's Lantern. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 16:48, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Tracey-Ann Oberman
Does she appear in this episode? She's on the cast list, but according to Army of Ghosts, she doesn't appear in this episode. smurray  inch   e  ster  ( User ), ( Talk ) 09:49, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
 * From all accounts, Oberman is appearing in the finalé as the head of Torchwood, so... not here. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 10:19, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Torchwood reference
I just finished watching the episode: is there some place where we are listing all the Torchwood references throughout this series? I did happen to catch on one of the audible 'broadcasts' during this episode something referring to 'The Torchwood Institute is/has...' Lady BlahDeBlah 19:15, 13 May 2006 (UTC) (P.S. I vote the Cybermen as waaaaay more scary than the Daleks!!)


 * After Pete talks to Rose at the party he goes and talks to someone about Torchwood too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.104.102.54 (talk • contribs)


 * Yep - Torchwood is the place - there's a References in Doctor Who section. &mdash;Wh o  uk (talk) 19:27, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

original solution to stopping cybermen
what was it - didn't actually catch the cyberment episodes - but the onlnie game has led to listening to a frequency and ending up with a code from the cybusindustries site.. Crescent 19:36, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

No trailer note was removed. Should it be restored?
I added a note about the trailer not being aired. This is certainly true for Yorkshire, I'm not sure about other areas (Season 27's did, and caused quite a few spoilers)  Will  ( E @ )  T  19:39, 13 May 2006 (UTC)


 * My mistake - the announcer tricked me by saying to look away if you didn't want to see what happened next but then it was the TARDISODE ad. I'll reinstate it. &mdash;Wh o  uk (talk) 19:48, 13 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I didn't hear any announcement about a trailer (or lack of one) in this TV area (West). RTD did say somewhere that one of the episodes doesn't have a trailer at the end. --DudeGalea 19:57, 13 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Scotland got screwed out of a trailer too. --193.62.251.32 10:29, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm in Scotland, so perhaps it was just the BBC Scotland announcer getting it wrong. &mdash;Wh o  uk (talk) 10:34, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I currently live in Hatfield which gets the London feed. No preview at all --HellCat86 11:54, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think anyone would have gotten a preview if there wasn't one, as the preview is part of the programme itself. The only difference would be in the continuity announcement, as these are regionalised rather than networked (sometimes, but not always - I think). --DudeGalea 11:59, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, it was the BBC Scotland announcer who warned us to look away if we didn't want to see the non-existent trailer, not the national one. Daibhid C 13:47, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Humanity point what?
I thought the Cybermen referred to themselves as 'humanity one point two'. Am I mad? Vitriol 21:03, 13 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty sure it was just "point two", but I'll check the repeat. 1.2 would make more sense... Daibhid C 21:23, 13 May 2006 (UTC)


 * It was Human.2; (you can hear it here). smurray  inch   e  ster  ( User ), ( Talk ) 22:24, 13 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I think the writer would just play his "parallel Earth excuse" card here. It's a different world, no reason to suppose that version number conventions will be the same. Really, it's a great idea to set your story on para-Earth. Bugs really do become features! :-) --DudeGalea 22:30, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
 * To further support Dudegalea's point, Ricky said something like '20 point 5' or something similar in The Age of Steel to mean 2005 - so clearly they have different terminology. Damiancorrigan 13:51, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Technological goof?
Did anyone else notice the video Rose recieved on her phone was entitled "Welcome.jpg"? That would make it an image file, not a video. While you could possibly explain it away by saying that maybe jpegs are video files on the parallel Earth, that surely wouldn't affect the technology from "our" world? --L T Dangerous 22:03, 13 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The jpeg was just the startup "Cybus" image. That page launched the video in a window, so the "Welcome.jpg" referred to the window behind the video. Or something like that. Must be.


 * Besides which, what are the chances that tech development in para-Earth so closely matches home-Earth that all the protocols just happen to be exactly the same, allowing the phone to work at all in the first place? The Doctor's jiggery-pokery has obviously put the phone into some special 'engineering' mode, so it's not displaying the same data that a normal phone would show. --DudeGalea 22:18, 13 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Incidently, what type of phone did Rose have? It certainly wasn't her Nokia 3200 anymore. smurray  inch   e  ster  ( User ), ( Talk ) 22:23, 13 May 2006 (UTC)


 * No, she's obviously had an upgrade too... Did she last use her phone in School Reunion? &mdash;Wh o  uk (talk) 22:48, 13 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I believe she's using a Samsung D500 now The_B 13:06, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * She had a new message, most likely - a picture which was saved as Cybus welcome.jpg. The report seemed to be live news which she got over the alt-Internet. Thelb 4  15:55, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Namecheck
Anyone else spot Mickey saying he didn't want to feel like a Spare Part? Worth mentioning? Morwen - Talk 04:12, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Indeed. I've added it to the note on Spare Parts. &mdash;Wh o  uk (talk) 13:11, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Divergence point
I removed this note:
 * The divergance point between the "normal" Earth and this "alternate" earth happened between 1879 (as Torchwood was mentioned in Rose's first 'download' and at Jackie Tyler's birthday party) and 1937 (as the Hindenberg Zepplin accident obviously never happened as there were many Zepplins over the skies of London).

It's not an unreasonable speculation, but I don't believe that there's enough evidence in the episode to support all this without seriously delving into Original Research. The Hindenburg disaster could still have happened, but the aftermath might have been different. Or something might have happened later which brought zeppelins back into fashion. And Torchwood could have started for a different reason, or it might mean something completely different. --DudeGalea 07:33, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd removed that too. One mention of Torchwood proves nothing about when or how it was created, and, as you say, zeppelins might be used anyway - for example, because they now use helium. &mdash;Wh o  uk (talk) 13:12, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Or the institute might have been created/exist in several parallel universes (as with Michael Moorcock's Tanelorn. Jackiespeel 21:02, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

it might be worth noting the possible connection between the high bandwidth wireless internet they all seem to have (as though the earpods) and the presence of the zeppelins, as there is/was talk of using automated zeppelin like systems for broadcasting wireless internet to remote areas. - deven

Out of curiosity - are there any other examples of "places existing in various segments of a parallel universe complex"? Jackiespeel 21:09, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Spare Parts
Can't really see what elements of Spare Parts have been used here, the plot seems closer to Mike Tucker's Loving the Alien to me: alternate universe where cybermen are created by humans. Anyone notice any thing from Spare Parts? Maybe it will be clearer in episode 2. Tim! 07:56, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * McRae does say it isn't much like Spare Parts, it started with the basic idea of a Cyberman origin story, then went off in a totally different direction. (The most notable difference, I think, is that Platt makes a point of there not being a "CyberDavros", but that's pretty much what Lumic is). Daibhid C 14:06, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Cyberman terminology
I notice my note that the Cybermen are not referred to as such by anyone except the Doctor has gone. Did I miss a bit where they are? Daibhid C 14:05, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * In the scene just before the end, when they are surrounded, the Cybermen refer to themselves as such.   "YOU ARE INFERIOR.  MEN WILL BE BORN AS CYBERMEN.  BUT YOU WILL PERISH."  Morwen - Talk 19:43, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Fair enough, then. Someone must have been talking through that bit... Daibhid C 20:26, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah @44:50 or thereabout the Cyberman makes that speech when the Doctor et al surrender and volunteer for the upgrade: "YOU ARE INFERIOR.  MAN WILL BE BORN AS CYBERMAN.  BUT YOU WILL PERISH UNDER MAXIMUM DELETION!" their voice is distorted so I can't tell if he says "CyeberMEN" or "CyberMAN". Andy_Howard (talk) 14:35, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Would mentioning Rose the Yorkshire Terrier be a bit much?
Was wondering if it'd be over the top to mention that Rose on RotC Earth was never born and so Jackie and Pete used the name for their terrier? GracieLizzie 21:12, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't see why not. Incidentally, in an episode of Sorry! pastiching It's A Wonderful Life, Timothy's mother, in the world where he didn't exist, had a poodle called Timothy. I'm almost certain that's a coincidence, though...Daibhid C 23:10, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it has happened in just about every programme where they has been an alternate reality. I think it might have happened in the last episode of Dallas too, I could be wrong. Damiancorrigan 23:13, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Series like Sorry! are written off at our peril. It's all very well to think of them as cosy sitcoms but they were so much a part of popular culture, that it would probably be more surprising if such a programme didn't influence Tom MacRae or RTD. DavidFarmbrough 08:41, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm the same age as Tom MacRae and have seen plenty of TV...and I've never seen an episode of Sorry ;-) &mdash;Wh o uk (talk) 08:58, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Parallel Problems
It has been a while, but if memory serves me correctly, I thought that in Inferno, The Doctor said that he could not bring the Brigade Leader, Section Leader Shaw, Petra and Sutton back with him to the normal universe because it would cause a time paradox if they were to meet their other selves (our Brigadier, Liz Shaw, etc.). If this is true, then how can anyone explain Mickey meeting Ricky?

More to the point, it was established in Mawdryn Undead and re-stated in Father's Day, that (with the expection of Time Lords) beings can not meet/touch their future/past selves, because it would cause an even greater time paradox (i.e.: The Brigadier from 1983 meeting his 1977 self, or Rose from 2005 meeting her 1987 baby self). In short, if Mickey is meeting up with Ricky, should the disturbance to time (based off of references established in Inferno, Mawdryn Undead and Father's Day) be enough to summon the Reapers into the parralell universe? Please, give me your thoughts.

While you're at it, can someone explain what happened to Mondas in this "Ricky Universe"? The Cybermen orginally came from the Earth's twin planet of Mondas. If memory serves me correctly, because the planet drifed away from the Earth's solar system and it went out farther from the sun, the Mondasians had to adapt to the cold temperatures and replace their limbs with cybernetics. Eventually becoming Cybermen. Thus, by the time of The Tenth Planet, the Mondasians had found a way to steer Mondas back to towards the Earth.

So in this "Ricky Universe", does this mean that the Mondasians are not the origins of the Cybermen, but Earthlings are? Also, I take it that because Timelords can exist in Multi universes and there is no parrallel Gallifrey, there was never a Doctor to stop the Mondasians, so I assume the there should still be a Mondas in this "Ricky Universe"? Please your thoughts. (Deej30 21:43, 14 May 2006 (UTC))
 * They're not from different times, they're from different dimensions. Its not the same person on the same linear life. The problem with Rose meeting her younger self is that the 'first time round' the little baby never met someone who looked uncannily like Billie Piper, but suddenly new experiences have been 'added' to her past. However, Ricky is not a younger Mickey, the two of them meeting does not cause a paradox. Damiancorrigan 21:54, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your response to my question. Your answer explains the differences between the two Roses in Father's Day verses Ricky and Mickey. However, it doesn't rectify the "Inferno Dilemma". The Brigade Leader and the Brigadier are not the same person on the same linear life, but the Third Doctor told the Brigade Leader and Section Leader Shaw that he could not take them back to the normal universe because their presence would create a dangerous time paradox. The Brigade leader was from a different dimension in almost the exact same manner that Ricky was. So how can anyone explain Rise of the Cyberman and reconcile it with Inferno?
 * Sorry, I'm too young to have seen that. Wasn't that the Doctor who had straw for hair and used to stand in fields scaring off the birds? Damiancorrigan 22:08, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * To quote the Doctor -- 'Didn't want to say Magic Door.' Just remember to take everything with a grain of salt and don't take things too seriously...I mean, take Father's Day, for example, huge conservation of energy violations all over the place.  DonQuixote 23:01, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * IIRC, the point was he couldn't take them to live in his universe when their Earth got turned into a wasteland by Stahlman(n) gas. I'm not sure there would have been as much of a problem if they'd only been visiting. Or possibly this only applied when the Time Lords were running things, and now it's a bit more free-and-easy. Daibhid C 23:07, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Another problem with the parallel universe - when the TARDIS lands in Paralell London, Mickey confirms it's the same date in both universes (February 1st or 2nd, can't remember which). Thus, Jackie Tyler's birthday in the Parallel Universe is the same date as her birthday in Our Universe (confirmed in Army of Ghosts when she tells the Doctor "I'm forty!"). So that means "our" Jackie Tyler is turning forty while Rose, the Doctor and Mickey are temporarily stranded in the Parallel Universe. I can accept that they couldn't be there for the party because of whatever it was that caused the Time Vortex to vanish (was that ever established, by the way?). That said, when the Doctor and Rose make it back to Our Universe, there's no sign of a party, or celebration, or anything. It looks like a normal day in the life of Jackie Tyler, even those Rose says (albeit in the Parallel Universe) that her mum "loves to throw a party". Admittely, the Parallel Party was much bigger than the party in Our Universe, but still, you'd figure there'd be some signs, evidence that Jackie had had a party. It's a small detail, but Jackie plays a pretty important role in the whole story, to establish that she has a birthday, and then to forget it, seems like a rare overslight. Still, it's minor, and the stories are both top-notch.

'I can accept that they couldn't be there for the party because of whatever it was that caused the Time Vortex to vanish (was that ever established, by the way?).' When the void ship broke down the walls between worlds it caused the TARDIS to fall into a crack. So when the Doc said that the time vortex had gone they were falling through the void at the time.

answer number 2 :S >> To answer the first part : a parallel universe the people are different people. So you could kill your parallel self and it would only change that             universe. No paradox theory has relevance excepting if the parallel universe at some point crosses back over and affects your universe thus meaning time lines would then be multidimensional. As a our good friend the doctor cant guarantee the entire time line for both universes, he is probably just playing it safe. However given that time is infinite Doug Adams would tell us the law of probability means that its a certainty that those laws have been broken if they could be and thus the laws of time and space are an ass. ok, bit number two : paradoxes in the same universes would be if the same matter was to touch. As we pretty much regenerate ourselves especially the skin cells and its lunacy to say that we are to time anything other than matter... then we would probably have to be able to come into physical contact within a week or so of our selves. not sure that makes sense (not sure I care). right then onto part three : mondas plays no part in the alternate universe as the cyber men have been crated in a different way infarct being as there are theoretically an infinite number of alternate universes the cyber men in one of them have been created by someone getting a rogue nano bot in their crunchy nut. Mondas might not exist, or it might still be in orbit, or it could be full up with clowns for all we know. Its an alternate universe the writer can do what ever they want (and more power to them). part...oh.... someone has already answered all this well at least I think I cleared up the paradox from when rose meets herself... time lords exercise over cautiousness probably due to that whole business of them all getting themselves wiped out or banished from time78.32.140.88 (talk) 20:56, 31 January 2013 (UTC) [[User:rob|rob] 31/1/2013. hope I didn't mess up the lovely talk page thats been unused for 6-7 years

Cyberleader
You seem to be saying that the Cyberleader is the one who killed the President, despite the fact that the Radio Times clearly said "The Cyberleader [note the spelling] has black handlebars". The Cyberman who killed the President had normal, metal-coloured handlebars.--Keycard (talk) 20:42, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I was trying to spot a black handlebarred Cyberman, but could not spot one - and for some reason, the Cyber-Leader (as spelled in the on screen credits, so that's where that comes from) was credited; admittedly that was the best assumption one could make at the time. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 22:26, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but they CL may simply have been the one who said "Platoon 02 now boarding" for all we know. What we do know is that the CL has black handlebars, and the one who killed the President did not have black handlebars, therefore they are not the same. Simple. See logic for more information.--Keycard (talk) 07:24, 17 May 2006 (UTC)


 * See also patronising. Perhaps the Radio Times has its wires crossed and its confusing the Cyber-Leader and (next weeks) Cybercontroller.  Morwen - Talk 23:27, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, I look at it this way. Three statements have been made:


 * 1) The Cyberleader has black handlebars.
 * 2) The Cyberperson who killed the President did not have black handlebars.
 * 3) The Cyberleader killed the President.

These cannot possibly all be true. Statement (1) is certainly true, as the Radio Times showed pictures of the Cyberleader (with black handlebars)


 * In light of the two most recent cybermen episodes, shot at the same time as these, that do feature a Cyberleader, called by name, with black handlebars, I think it's safe to say, this episode did not feature a Cyberleader--71.247.107.146 15:33, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Citation

 * "The actors playing the Cybermen went through extensive choreographing to perfect their movements". I'm not certain how to cite it, but this is explored in the Confidential for this episode. --Made2Fade 00:27, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Only Human
I'd have to rewatch the episode to confirm, but at the start I remember the Doctor and Rose talking about fire coming out of people's mouths. Was this a reference to Only Human, or unconnected? BillyH 23:38, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Did they not say that people with fire coming from their mouths was on an asteroid?

Jonathan Ross?
Does anyone have the facts on this? We should either confirm that Jonathan Ross *did* appear as a Cyberman, or remove this citing of Ross having a joke with us - it's not as if people have had problems coming with other factoids in the notes/cast notes/trivia/references to other eps/other appearances of parallel worlds sections of this article! PaulHammond 13:10, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know whether it turned out to be real or not, but I did make the reference a bit more specific (it was on Friday Night with Jonathan Ross). —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 17:24, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Cracks between the parallel universes
Rise of the Cybermen "We fell out of the vortex, through the void and into nothingness (or as Mickey says, parallel London)." The Age of Steel "I told you, travel between parallel worlds is impossible. We only got here by accident...we...we fell through a crack in time.  When we leave I've got to close it." Army of Ghosts "Sphere comes through...when it made the hole, it cracked the world around it. The entire surface of this dimension splintered." Doomsday "I've been trying to tell you, travel between parallel worlds is impossible...then the Daleks break down the walls with a sphere!"--The Doctor
 * DonQuixote 14:56, 11 July 2006 (UTC)


 * But that is still an inference, not an explicit mention, and certainly not as definitive as the note makes it out to be as phrased. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 15:16, 11 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I've moved the note to Doomsday, as that seems to be the most explicit link to an explanation of all the quotes, and phrased it so it's less definitive. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 15:31, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Prime Minister problem!
During Mickey's guesses of what could be different, he mentions that Tony Blair could have been not elected as the primeminister. This is a continuty problem here as it is presumed Blair was the primeminister in 2005, and somewhen in 2006, a new PM entered and was murdered by the Slitheen (unless that was Blair) and then Harriet Jones became PM until Christmas until her little fiasco. It is presumed a new Primeminister took control, but is it Tony Blair...again? Does anybody what to discuss this complicated piece of trivia? Evilgidgit 15:14, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * We don't have any real indication that Blair wasn't the PM who was murdered (certainly the corpse bore a vague resemblance to his general build and hairstyle). If so, the succession went from Blair to whoever was interim Prime Minister, to Harriet Jones in a general election in those six months. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 15:23, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

The DVD commentary explained that the murdered PM was Blair. This was supposed to be more explicit, but the look-alike didn't look very alike, so they just stuffed him in a cupboard! Gwinva 22:49, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Weapons
Looks like AK-47 machine guns carried by the resistance? -- Terry J. Gardner (talk) 14:42, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Opening paragraph
I added the following to the opening paragraph:


 * The episode features the return of the Cybermen to the series, having last been seen in Silver Nemesis in 1988 (although a Cyberman head appeared in the 2005 episode "Dalek"); the Cybermen are introduced in "Rise of the Cybermen" as a different race created on a parallel world.

which was changed to:


 * The episode features the return of the Cybermen to the series, having last been seen in Silver Nemesis in 1988.

on the grounds that there was too much in-universe. While I admit that what I had written was a little clumsy, is it not important to mention that (1) a Cyberman had made a sort-of-appearance in "Dalek", and (2) the Cybermen seen in "Rise of the Cybermen" are NOT the same race that was last seen in Silver Nemesis?--Codenamecuckoo (talk) 11:30, 17 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Note that this article deals with the episode, not the Cybermen. Anything outside the Plot section should contain only real world information. Otherwise, the aticle strays away from being about the episode itself. Details about their apearence are explained in their own article. — Edokter  •  Talk  • 16:02, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

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