Talk:Rita Hayworth/Archive 1

Spanish ancestry
To be added to the article, if a consensus can be developed:


 * She is noted as one of the first Hispanic actresses to achieve mainstream success in major Hollywood roles.

See also Talk:Jennifer Lopez. 209.149.235.254 21:57, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Her ethnicity has been over looked over the years I have edited the article to reflect this known fact Toby Dolores Del Rio and Ramon Navarro were two Hispanic stars that preceded Hayworth. Also,Barbara Leaming's biography of Orson Welles quotes him as saying Eduardo Cansino's family were gyspies from Spain.
 * I'm somewhat surprised to see a claim that she was "one of the first" Hispanic actresses etc.; there were quite a number of Hispanic actors and actresses who were quite successful: Lupe Velez (the "Mexican Spitfire"), Dolores del Rio (mentioned above), Desi Arnaz, Ramon Novarro, and many others I can't think of just now. 66.108.4.183 14:53, 17 September 2006 (UTC) Allen Roth

While Del Rio and Navarro did precede Hayworth, nevertheless Rita's Spanish roots (from Spain, as you note though, not from Mexico or Latin America) were very well known by moviegoers of the day. There was no secretecy. Her parents were a famous vaudeville act, The Dancing Casinos.

Gay Icon Project
In my effort to merge the now-deleted list from the article Gay icon to the Gay icons category, I have added this page to the category. I engaged in this effort as a "human script", adding everyone from the list to the category, bypassing the fact-checking stage. That is what I am relying on you to do. Please check the article Gay icon and make a judgment as to whether this person or group fits the category. By distributing this task from the regular editors of one article to the regular editors of several articles, I believe that the task of fact-checking this information can be expedited. Thank you very much. Philwelch 20:48, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

In reply: I am sorry, but I just don't think it's truly worth it unless information regarding, e.g, what kind of relationship she had with now out actor Tab Hunter (co-star from They Came To Cordura) or her make-up artist even (and that's even if he was gay at all). Are there any more concrete connections besides "she was glamorous" because I find such lazy criteria to be patronising to say the least.


 * Her grandson is a pretty concrete connection. He's gay. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Andxf23 (talk • contribs) 04:36, 15 May 2007 (UTC).


 * Her grandson was also born a year before her death. Hardly an important factor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.138.105.38 (talk) 01:27, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Roma (Gypsy) heritage paragraph
I have moved the following text, in entirety from the article to this page because it broke the flow of the article. I believe the simple link will suffice. " Gypsies originated in  northern India, and migrated to many parts of the Middle east (Iran, Egypt, Lebanon, Central Asia, Turkey, etc.) and all over Europe (mostly Spain, Romania, Italy, France, Germany, eastern Europe, Greece, etc etc) during middle ages (1100-1600AD, and even into the late 1800s.  Scholars claim they left due to persecution by the invading Muslims of the Middle East.  Many other famous people claim to be of Gypsy ancestry.  See Roma people, List of Roma people" If someone feels strongly that it belongs in the text, I would disagree, but not be too broken up about it if reverted. Istvan 21:34, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Picture
there sahould be a pic of her from when she was a hottie, not an old bag og bones.


 * If you can find a freely-licensed photo of her when she was younger, by all means add it. &mdash;Chowbok 21:05, 25 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Bag of bones? Or indeed bag og bones? Come on, Hayworth still looks fantastic in that pic! Anyway, I agree that a photo of her at the peak of her career would be more helpful, but as Chowbok says there may be licensing issues. Meanwhile, I've done a copyedit and style edit of the article, with a bit of NPOV, but more still needs to be done, I think. -- TinaSparkle 13:58, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

She is amazingly beautiful in that pic of her in 1977... we should all look that good at any age!

If you want a better pic of her during her career to post here, just contact the public relations people at the studio who owns the movies from the era you want a pic, they have licensed pics for advertisement and ... well.. not to be crass, but this site does raise profiles and that generates sales of dvd sets. Although, my humble vote, is that pic of her should stay. A pretty girl is an accident, a beautiful woman is an achievement... MC —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.200.99.157 (talk) 21:24, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Top sex symbol of 1940s
great job of writing on this article. bear in mind most film historians and fans credit rita as the number one sex symbol to emerge from the 1940s. that is still her legacy in film history. even her singular nickname "the love goddess", given to her at that time, points towards that. marcco09

Inacuracy with Ali Khan's title
Ali Khan -was- Aga Khan III, not "heir to" as listed before. --Aeranis 04:42, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Ali Khan was skipped in the succession. He never became The Aga Khan. He was, in fact, only the "heir to" and "father of" an Aga Khan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.105.150.19 (talk) 10:54, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Rita Hayworth was not the first American women to marry into a royal family. The Aga Khan's aren't even a royal family.

The first American women to marry into a royal family was Alice Heine of New Orleans in 1889 who became HSH The Princess of Monaco after her marriage to Albert I. 76.105.150.19 02:20, 20 September 2007 (UTC)


 * As the above ¶ indirectly notes, the Princes and Princesses of Monaco are not "royal." The style "HSH" means His or Her Serene Highness. This point is made more clearly by Princess Grace's elder daughter Princess Caroline having married Prince Ernst of Hanover, 53rd in the line of succession to the British crown, whereupon she went from being Her Serene Highness to being Her Royal Highness. Dick Kimball (talk) 19:35, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
 * 53rd? I very much doubt so. See the line of succession to the British throne. A descendant of Mary, Princess Royal and Countess of Harewood, is 53rd. He could not have been 53rd at the time of their marriage either. Besides, the moment he married her, he dropped out of the line. Surtsicna (talk) 22:36, 24 February 2013 (UTC)


 * the aga khans are leaders for ? 400 years of a muslim sect that is important and so in a way above royalty / royal families that come and go, but this position doesnt change ... big con sr69.121.221.97 (talk) 04:33, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Photos
Hi there can SOMEONE FIND an early picture of Rita hayworth as "Rita cansino"!!....about 1935-ish, before she transformed herself ,by dying her hair etc......she looks more beautiful and natural, and younger obviously....anyone try find a free one somewhere....then upload on wiki commons..

James Hill
Hill is described as a film director, but IMDB lists no directing credits - those he has are mainly producing. Anyone have evidence of him being a director ? -- Beardo 01:45, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Related to Ginger Rogers
Quote - While not related by blood, Hayworth and Ginger Rogers did share an aunt and uncle by marriage.


 * Seems to me that they must have been cousins, and therefore related by blood. Or, this uncited fact is not actually a fact.  We can't have it both ways. --  JackofOz 07:32, 20 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Maybe the aunt and uncle were in-laws? --Maxl (talk) 18:53, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * If person A's aunt by blood (parent's sister) and person B's uncle by blood (parent's brother) marry each other, then persons A and B share an aunt and uncle without being blood relatives to each other. That may be what Maxl has in mind. 216.75.189.161 (talk) 01:02, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

According to http://claudia79.tripod.com/faqs.html It has been said in books and other publications that Ginger Rogers was Rita's cousin. They were NOT blood relatives. Their connection is as follows: Rita's mother's brother, Vinton Hayworth, (Rita's uncle) was married to Ginger's mother's sister, Jean Owens (Ginger's aunt). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.77.127.106 (talk) 16:57, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Sexual abuse by father
I originally included this info (along with reference), and it was removed. I think it is important to include - gives insight into her early life. Any comments on why it should not be included? Gwyka 14:55, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

This keeps getting removed - finally with a comment that is eminate's from the "unreliable" Leaming bio. How is this bio unreliable? The reviews of it that's I've found mention "meticulous research". 165.189.169.190 (talk) 20:35, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, Publisher's Weekly review is available on Amazon for you to read: "Yet aside from interviews with Welles, the book is based on secondary sources and information furnished by Hayworth's secretary, publicist, studio hairdresser and makeup man." That sums it up nicely from what I can see in many similar mentions around the 'net, as far as the Times. The article currently mentions the book and it's claims. That section might require expansion (it used to be slightly longer), but that's the right place to put it. Maury (talk) 01:38, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Real singer's name in "Mame" should be mentioned
Hello, since "Put the Blame on Mame" is such a famous song, perhaps the name of the real singer of that recording (Anita Ellis) should be mentioned. Another interesting thread might be the guy who wrote the lyrics. Sorry I don't have the second name on hand but it was very interesting to read about him when someone brought him to my attention. The song was originally a poem, and some decades old when Rita danced to it. The poet was well known in his day. It might be best to have another page just about that song's history. I can assure that's it's well worth the trouble. BobHelms (talk) 23:43, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Height, etc
can someone add rita's height and other details, thanks; fan109 69.121.221.97 (talk) 04:36, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The wiki article says she was tall enough for her height. What a coincidence. I'm tall enough for my height too. - Jimmy Snyder — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.61.194.90 (talk) 02:04, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Very helpful comment, thanks. I edited the article's nonsensical sentence accordingly. Span (talk) 18:16, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Children?
it mentions a daughter in the fund raising, but nowhere do i see a list of kids (and with which husband/father)... anyone want to add that? thanks, MC —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.200.99.157 (talk) 21:16, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

References in popular culture?
rita hayworth is a semi-important figure in the book "people of paper" by salvador plascencia 12.50.82.34 (talk) 07:18, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Removed Hispanic American category
I removed the Hispanic Americans category since Ms. Hayworth's father is from Spain and not Mexico, Central or South America. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/    Hispanic Today, it is commonly used interchangeably with Latino, which I think is different from Latin (referring to Spain, Italy, France, etc.). Since Spanish Americans is already a Category on the actor's page, I see no reason to keep it. Hispanic in terms of race and not culture derived from Spain, refers to people who are mestizo of mixed Spanish and native ancestry or Spanish, native and African ancestry.--CreativeSoul7981 (talk) 03:29, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Trivia

 * Most of this seems useless. However, I've moved it here if anyone feels they'd like to work into the text.--Leodmacleod (talk) 05:44, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Hayworth's uncle married Ginger Rogers' aunt.

Hayworth used to live in Brentwood, Los Angeles, California (during her first marriage). In the 1950s, she lived in a Spanish bungalow just off Santa Monica Blvd. at 512 N. Palm Drive in Beverly Hills, California (previously owned by Jean Harlow).

Some legends say the Margarita cocktail was named for her when she was dancing under her real name (Margarita Cansino) in a Tijuana, Mexico nightclub.

Lynda Carter starred in Rita Hayworth: The Love Goddess (1983), a television biographical film of her life.

She is one of the many movie stars mentioned in Madonna's song "Vogue".

Rita Hayworth is mentioned in the White Stripes song 'Take, Take, Take', and is referenced in their song 'White Moon'. She is discussed in the Porridge episode "Rough Justice".

She is mentioned in Manuel Puig's novel "La traición de Rita Hayworth".

Rita Hayworth is part of the title of the short Stephen King novella, Rita Hayworth and the Shawshank Redemption. Part of the story revolves around the main character receiving a poster with her likeness.

In Notting Hill, Anna Scott (Julia Roberts) mentions that Gilda was Rita's most famous part and says one of her quotes "Men fell in love with Gilda, but they wake up with me.".


 * I support the moving of this here and removal from the article, wikipedia is not the place for 'trivia' sections - such content should either be incorporated into the body of the article or put on www.imdb.com where there is a designated 'trivia' section NorthLondoner (talk) 10:59, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Picture on atomic bomb
The below website presents a well researched inquiry into whether Rita Hayworth's image was on the atomic bomb dropped July 1, 1946. After interviewing those involved who are still living and viewing declassified photos of the bomb, it was the author's conclusion that all that was on the bomb was the stenciled word GILDA and that the newspaper stories about her picture being painted on the bomb were hyped up by reporters who wanted a good story.

http://knol.google.com/k/bill-geerhart/atomic-goddess-part-1/1uefuvb7s5ifz/5# Nightkey (talk) 16:37, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Fred Astaire's encomium
Fred Astaire said Rita Hayworth was his favorite dancing partner. (I don't have a reference.) If you've seen them dancing together, it's obvious why -- unlike most of his partners, she actually keeps up with him, without appearing to struggle. His praise should be included in this article. WilliamSommerwerck (talk) 17:47, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

If you don't have a reference, WilliamSommerwerck, then please don't post hearsay. Fred Astaire was asked by British TV interviewer Michael Parkinson who his favorite dancing partner was on the TV interview show "Parkinson" in 1976. At first, Fred didn't want to choose. But, ultimately, he said "I must say, Ginger was certainly the one. You know, the most effective partner I ever had. Everyone knows. That was a whole other thing what we did...I just want to pay a tribute to Ginger because we did so many pictures together and believe me it was a value to have that girl...she had it! She was just great!" This interview can currently be seen on YouTube as "Fred Astaire interview - Parkinson 1976".

I've noticed the Wikipedia article on Rita Hayworth uses a lot of info from Peter Levinson's gossipy, catchpenny book "Puttin' on the Ritz: Fred Astaire and the Fine Art of Panache". The book was panned by critics and Fred Astaire devotees for its wild inaccuracies; Levinson said Ginger Rogers' famous "Cheek to Cheek" dress from "Top Hat" was pink when, in fact, it was ice blue. He also mixed up directors of the classic RKO Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers musicals, Mark Sandrich and George Stevens, not once, but twice. He claimed that when asked who his favorite dancing partner was, Fred allegedly said "All right, I'll give you a name. But if you ever let it out, I'll swear I lied. It was Rita Hayworth." Pure hearsay with no video nor audio to back it up. Especially ludicrous since there is extant footage of Fred Astaire, himself, saying Ginger Rogers was his favorite dancing partner which can be seen on the Internet.

The Rita Hayworth article on Wikipedia is over-the-top in its claim that Rita Hayworth was Fred Astaire's other main dancing partner. Fred made ten films with Ginger Rogers. He made three films with Cyd Charisse ("Ziegfeld Follies", "The Band Wagon", and "Silk Stockings"). Fred only made two films with Rita Hayworth. She certainly wasn't his other main dancing partner by any stretch of the imagination. The article is very spotty. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lauracerffer (talk • contribs) 11:00, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

Unrealized projects
Hi Parkwells, thanks very much for a great clean up of Rita Hayworth. I did an overall copy edit from its dire state a few months ago. Your clean up certainly takes it to another level. I would say that the roles she was offered but didn't take are pretty interesting as there are many major movies in the list that went on to be blockbusters. I won't push the point but I'd wonder you'd consider reinstating it. Best wishes for your week. Span (talk) 02:53, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi Spanglej - Thanks for your note. I've been thinking about it, too. Maybe I was reacting to the idea of "the life one didn't live." How much do we want to read about that?  Is it more important to speculate about everything she didn't do, or to read what she did?  Is listing the "lost" opportunities to say she didn't have good judgment? Would the movies have been blockbusters if she were in them?  It's like trying to speculate on an alternate history, and will every Wikipedia article soon have an alternate history attached?  Elections he didn't win, sports matches he didn't win, teams he did not make, schools she rejected, jobs she did not take in which other people were successful, wars a nation didn't win at a particular point. There's a growing genre in fiction of alternate history. Maybe it was the fear of an alternate universe bloom on Wikipedia, like the trivia sections, that discouraged me. Will look again. Parkwells (talk) 13:24, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Looking again, I think that under the pre-Oct 2011 article, there was theme of the connection between her health (mental, emotional and physical) reflecting in the parts she took, was pushed towards or rejected. The section on the 'Struggles with Columbia' still now features this. For example the quote from the section references this:"Think of what she could have made! But she didn't make pictures! She took two or three suspensions! She got mixed up with different characters! Unpredictable!" This would make notable the list of major films she didn't take, don't you think? Span (talk) 22:18, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Sections removed
While I agree that a lot of what was removed (such as the "Unrealized film projects" section) was necessary and beneficial, why were the personal life, death, and legacy sections also removed? These sections are pretty standard in biographies. I think Hayworth's death from Alzheimer's (which I believe she reportedly started exhibiting signs of in her 30s) should at least be mentioned. Same goes for her marriages as most of them were well publicized as she married some fairly notable men.  Pinkadelica ♣  02:46, 22 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't know why these disappeared; seem to have gotten caught up in some bot action, as I had edited those sections and then they were gone. Have replaced them and am checking for completion.Parkwells (talk) 04:20, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Damaged page
Somebody damaged this page and it became unreadable! 187.106.21.122 (talk) 22:34, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * This talk page? how is it unreadable to you? Span (talk) 23:03, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Order of sections
I edited this article a few days ago only to be reverted today for no reason. I explained my edit and it was within reason so I'm not sure why my edit was just undone. I guess I didn't explain each and every edit clear enough so I'll do that now. I changed up the order of the sections because it makes no sense to read about a person's marriages and health problems AFTER you have just read a section about their death. Events should go in some kind of sequential order. This is done in just about every other biography here so I'm not sure why we should deviate from sensible writing for the Hayworth article. Also, why do the years along with Hayworth's husbands' names need to be included in the subheader? Not only does in the Infobox provide the years the marriages lasted but the text tells readers when the marriage began or ended. It seems like amateurish writing to include the years in the subheading which is why I changed it. Rebecca Wells is deceased. The content in the Infobox should make that clear. Finally, I also took the time to add sources for quotes that were left uncited only to be reverted. Why? 24.224.43.225 (talk) 20:58, 4 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Appears to me that the revert was because although your resequensing makes sense (to me), the editor doesn't understand (and neither do I) why you changed the degree levels of many of the categories ("rv third degree headings not needed"). So the revert was done for a reason and thus it seems to me that the onus is on you to explain why you further editted the degree of the headings from "===Heading===" to "====Heading====". Please either justify your changes or fix the degree of the headings back to the original.Ckruschke (talk) 19:31, 5 November 2012 (UTC)Ckruschke

Edward Charles Judson
They eloped in Las Vegas. Are you sure you don't mean "They eloped to Las Vegas."? Dick Kimball (talk) 19:23, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Hispanic
Actually, according to the Wikipedia Article on the term Hispanic, Hayworth, IS Hispanic I am putting the category back on. The term Hispanic (contrary to popular belief) does NOT always mean Latino Americano Iamanadam (talk) 23:23, 4 February 2014 (UTC)


 * hispania was a Roman province in the Iberian Peninsula that no longer exists --Bretema7 (talk) 22:44, 22 March 2014 (UTC)


 * And? Hispanic is a universally understood term meaning of Spanish speaking heritage. The first known use was 1584 and its root is Latin hispanicus, from Hispania Iberian Peninsula, Spain. Although Latin Americans are the bulk of these people, it also means Spain and other spanish-speaking countries so the definition is very broad (as opposed to Latino/Latina) and is perfectly suited for Hayworth. Seems like you are attempting to split hairs... Ckruschke (talk) 17:30, 24 March 2014 (UTC)Ckruschke

I am not splitting hairs, someone keeps removing the Hispanic category from people of direct Spanish descent, I probably should have stated that I am well aware of what the term means, and I am getting frustrated with certain individuals that think it means Mestizo or Mulatto (one in particular) that keeps removing the category from "White" HispanicsAdam (talk) 15:12, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Too much negativity?
The lead says Hayworth "was an American actress and dancer. She achieved fame during the 1940s as one of the era's top stars, appearing in a total of 61 films over 37 years." However, the Personal life section is as long as the entire Career section. And the Personal life sections are overly negative, IMO, with excessive details or trivia about her failed marriages (each with their own subsections) and her health problems. Even the subsection Beauty is negative: "Biographer Barbara Leaming wrote that Hayworth aged prematurely because of her addiction to alcohol and the stresses of her life."

The irony is that Hayworth once made her wishes very clear during an interview: Whatever you write about me, don't make it sad. I think the article needs a lot less of the privacy invading and negative tabloid fodder. --Light show (talk) 03:26, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Lead image tagging
The current lead image which I restored a few days ago was a few hours after it was added. Since I can't reply on the DR page, I'll reply to the tagger's concerns here.

Since none of the above comments about the image can be added to the, would you mind copying and pasting them there so an admin reviewer can make their judgement based on all the facts. Thank you. --Light show (talk) 20:20, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Re: "no marks visible:" Yes, the front of the pre-cropped image shows typical movie studio ID numbers on the bottom left;
 * Re: no back is shown: There has never been, and there is still no requirement that every photo must show what's on the reverse side; And for publicity stills, which according to the legal experts have not been copyrighted, we would not expect such a notice;
 * Re: that you can't confirm the year stated, given as 1945 by the original seller over 3 years ago. The date should be presumed to have been stated to the best of the seller's ability as such resellers are professionals. In any case, Google Images search for her will show hundreds of similar images that the sources will state were made in the 1940s. Here's another photo showing her wearing a similar fur coat, which was also taken in the early 1940s. In any case, the exact date it was taken is of minor concern for such 75+ year-old publicity photos;
 * Re: you can't see the listing which was expired over 3-years ago. This image has been used on the lead for nearly all those 3 years. And as I'm sure you recall, it was the lead image over 3 years ago when you yourself first started editing the article;
 * Re: your concern that the name of the studio or photographer is unknown. It is not necessary to know who took the photo. She was a major movie star and as the Google search shows there are probably thousands of similar publicity photos taken by unknown studio photographers;
 * This very good photo is currently being used in dozens of her Wiki bios around the world, many for the lead. Deleting this photo based on weak concerns will undermine those other articles. The Precautionary Principle is worth considering.
 * I realize that it's just a coincidence that you tagged this image for deletion, even having seen it on the lead for over three years, just a few hours after it was restored to the lead. But the Life photo you uploaded and put in the lead is non-free, much smaller, and not much better than a typical pin-up, even if someone calls it "iconic." It's not one that should be used for her lead in any case.

It looks like you did some valuable research. Good job in updating the photo's details.👍 --Light show (talk) 05:27, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks—I think it's solid, now, although I'd have loved to have found that particular photo so I could have uploaded that stamped and no-copyright-notice back. Maybe someday it'll turn up. — WFinch (talk) 14:03, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Sexual abuse of Rita Hayworth by her father
I wonder why there is no mention of the sexual and physical abuse of Rita Hayworth. Unfortunately incest is one of the most under reported crime in America. It very often leads to drug or substance abuse by the victim, generally female, and some go on to prostitution. In Rita Hayworth's situation she also ended up acting out the pain of this abuse and suffering throughout her lifetime. I suspect that much of wikipedia is written by men who do not wish to face up to how wide spread this crime really is. There are several biographies that talk about the incest. You should not sweep this under the carpet. 2601:18B:4100:B302:908B:8F50:BCC5:9DA5 (talk) 19:42, 20 July 2016 (UTC)