Talk:Riverina/Archive 1

Murrumbidgee
I've added that it also goes north of the murrumbidgee. My readers digest atlas shows it going north of it, and Griffith is also north of that river -- Astrokey44 |talk 05:32, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps a better definition is the Murrumbidgee and Murray catchments as opposed to the Lachlan catchment in the Central West.--Mattinbgn 02:22, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I have made the changes detailed above. I have not been able to find any official definition other than for electoral districts which all leave out significant portions of what is customarily known as the Riverina.Mattinbgn 06:29, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Map of the Riverina
As many of you know finding a map that actually encompasses the Riverina is difficult but I have found one that certainly covers more accurately the area than say the electoral district and similar maps. A link to the map is listed in the body of this article or you can point to here. V i  r  tual  Steve  08:40, 9 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I made this based on that map and the info in the article. Is this correct? --Astrokey 44 11:00, 9 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi Astrokey - There will be other views on the map you have created but for my view I have difficulty with the inclusion based on the unreferenced sentence in the article To the north, in the Lachlan River catchment is the Central West, although for some purposes towns as far north as Parkes and Condobolin are considered as being in the Riverina. For my money the map that I linked to the article (as detailed above) the top (northern) locations are a more accurate view of the Riverina and Parkes, Condobolin and surrounding area should not be included (I live in the Riverina area and have never seen anything that substantially includes these towns and areas). V  i  r  tual  Steve  21:27, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I've done a search and every map is different but these two seem to match each other. -- Bidgee 01:49, 10 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Problem with these two maps (they probably match each other because there is a link between the two sites) is that they don't display the names of the towns/communities in the extremities (particularly northern) parts of the map. They both do however agree with my point that Parkes and Condobolin are not part of the Riverina.  V  i  r  tual  Steve  02:12, 10 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't mind Astrokey's map. It does need some minor refinements (remove Parkes and Condobolin perhaps; if we do we should probably remove the text unless there is a cite.  I think I added it originally based on the Northern Riverina Australian Football League.)  It also needs some trimming on the east to align with the Hume Highway.  VirtualSteve's map leaves out the Murray River townships of Corowa, Mulwala, Barooga, Tocumwal and Moama which are generally considered Riverina towns.  The maps supplied by Bidgee include Wentworth which is only classed at the Riverina for state service delivery purposes and (in my opinion) not part of the Riverina as generally accepted.

This interest may be an opportunity for a bit of collaboration to improve the article which is fairly lacking at the moment--Mattinbgn 02:57, 10 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with Mattinbgn with regards to improving the article. I also quite like the map area created by Astrokey as it stands at this time, because I note that Astrokey or someone has adjusted the map to remove Parkes and Condobolin.  I think that the article should reflect this too until (if) we get a cite. V  i  r  tual  Steve  03:43, 10 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes I updated it based on what was said here. One other thing I was going to ask was if you think that West Wyalong should be included? That article says that it is part of the Northern Riverina or Central West, and it is shown on some of the Riverina maps, but not the one you linked to above. --Astrokey 44 03:10, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Another Riverina map, Bureau of Meteorology this time —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mattinbgn (talk • contribs).


 * The Bureau of Meteorology map is just the forecast region. -- Bidgee 00:11, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Outline of Map of Riverina
Hi Astrokey (and others commenting on this issue). I have been trying to come to grips with this question and I now feel confident enough to go out on three directional limbs here.

Northern Boundary of the Riverina. I have removed the references in article to Parkes and Condobolin - I simply can not find appropriate reference to their inclusion and the main article ( I think quite correctly) draws the northern boundary of the Riverina as it becomes the Central West at the catchment area of the Lachlan River. On that basis this reference with this accompanying diagram  provides a good indication of where that catchment area starts and clearly removes West Wyalong from the Riverina area. Importantly the Lachlan River and its catchment (as detailed in the Wiki Article) show a distinct flow and catchment difference between that river and the Murray and Murrumbidgee Rivers - hence IMHO showing why the areas of the Murray and Murrumbidgee are the Riverina. I would say then that the northern boundaries (in straight lines) are from Yass to Young To Cootamundra to Illabo to Temora to Rankin Springs to Hillston to about 50 kms north east of Balranald (where the confluence of the Murrumbidgee and Lachlan occurs) to Penarie (above Balranald) to Robinvale.

Southern Boundary Put simply the Riverina is in New South Wales so the southern border of NSW which of course is the direction of the Murray River should be the guide for the map (as Astrokey has already accomplished) however it should stretch up to the point that it reaches the Kosciusko National Park.

Eastern Boundary Finally the Riverina is defined as being west of the Great Dividing Range and including the catchment area of the Murrumbidgee. From that perspective IMHO the eastern boundary should follow the Kosciusko National Park north up to and including Tumut and then veer off to the north east to include Wee Jasper to Cavan and to our starting point of Yass.

I would suggest that a map to include such detail (and if possible even more detailed than the current diagram on the article mainspace) would serve our purposes for now. Any other thoughts, concurrences or comments will be most welcome. V i  r  tual  Steve  04:29, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Maybe there should be a detailed map of the region, in addition to the locator map of its location within New South Wales. Also there is the western boundary.. I had thought it would be where the Murrumbidgee joins the Murray. Robinvale that you mentioned is a little further west, but some of those maps linked above show it going right to the South Australian border. --Astrokey 44 05:16, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Yep I purposefully left out the western boundary because the area seems to come down to a point in the west from Hillston to the include the Murrumbidgee-Murray junction. I can see references such as this one  which includes Robinvale as a sub-region of the Riverina but so far that seems to be the end of good references.  V  i  r  tual  Steve  05:28, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Mattinbgn makes a good point my reference to Robinvale should actually be Euston. V  i  r  tual  Steve  06:27, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Albury
I don't think Albury is Riverina - not sure what my source is other than I have been there a ton of times. Any ideas - signs, ...--Golden Wattle talk 19:19, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
 * While I agree that Albury is not as good an example of a Riverina town as Griffith or Deniliquin, I would still leave it in the article and on the map and on Template:Riverina. It is the main service centre for areas in the southern Riverina as far west as Berrigan and north as far as Urana, Rand and Culcairn.  A  google search seems to bring up more than a few relevant hits.  Another definition here includes Albury.  Perhaps in the article the differences between places such as Albury, Tumut, Yass etc on the slopes  and Hay, Narrandera and Finley on the plain can be mentioned.--Mattinbgn 22:49, 29 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I would suggest keep also. A Charles Sturt University Historic Newspapers site lists Albury as part of the Riverina (and interestingly includes a (not so good) link to our previously discussed Border Post Historic Dictionary of Newspapers of the Riverina. Our Bioregion and 1916 maps include Albury and of course our reference in relation to the Murray includes it.-- VS  talk...images 23:55, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Fair enough - in it is--Golden Wattle talk 00:19, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Eastern boundary - Yass
The present map and the Eastern boundary described by Virtual Steve don't align at present. As with Albury I am not convinced that Yass is in the Riverina (but I am more convinced about Albury from argumetns above). Yass fails the Riverina papers test. I like the definition at mentioned by Mattinbgn which is "Geographically, the Riverina region is bounded in the east by the Great Dividing Range, north by a line drawn from about Yass to Hillston and then directly west to the South Australian border, and south by the Murray River. Statistically, it comprises the Murrumbidgee and Murray statistical districts."  ABS puts Yass in the southern tablelands.  not with the Murrumbidgee SDA. I think Yass is out but helps to define the border. Comments?--Golden Wattle talk 04:12, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The links for Yass and the Riverina in the google search are distinctly less convincing than Albury's. My personal opinion (based on no evidence whatsoever) is that Gundagai Shire would be the northeastern extremity of the Riverina and Yass would fall outside, as would Harden.  Having said that I am willing to convinced otherwise.--Mattinbgn 04:36, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Appreciate this discussion. First, let me say that I agree the map does not align and it would be nice if the eastern boundary came up a little bit more to the outline of the Great Dividing Range. That said I am also reasonably convinced that Yass is not diectly in the Riverina but I included it as being on the edge (as per a previous discussion with Matt).

However I do think based on the great dividing range boundary and the obvious links to the Murrumbidgee and Murray that Cavan, Woolgarlo, Wee Japser and Burrinjuck (all south of Yass) and all therefore at the shores of the Murrumbidgee are included. This means that Bowning is out. However it leaves in Bookham, Beggan Beggan and Cootamundra. If we then look at the Lachlan River catchment map found at Lachlan River catchment area (gif) then Cootamundra is in but Temora, Stockinbingal, Springdale, Combaning are out, but as the hydrology map shows (and my recent photographic evidence details) the Riverina area takes a sharp right turn just under Temora to include Ariah Park, Mirrool and Beckom before travelling roughly straight to Hillston.

In relation to Gundagai being the north eastern extremity - perhaps I am misreading Matt's point so I will make a point by suggesting that in my view Tumut down to Welaregang (including Talbingo also technically on the Murrumbidgee) and to where the mountains meet the Murray should still be included. Hope that all makes sense. -- VS talk...images 07:27, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


 * By northeastern extremity, I meant that if a place is BOTH north AND east of the Gundagai shire boundary, then it probably misses out. Cootamundra, I would keep, and Mirrool, Beckom, Temora and Ariah Park are all definitely Riverina towns.  As I said earlier, I would include borderline cases, Yass just seems a little outside the border.  Tumut and Talbingo, while not classic Riverina towns, I believe fall into the economic catchment of Wagga Wagga and would therefore share some of the characteristics of the towns on the Riverina plain.  Having said all this I wouldn't like to be too prescriptive about the borders.  Australian regions are by their nature mutable and only exist insofar as there is a acceptance by most that a region exists.  Also, unlike states with political borders, it is possible a place may be in two regions--Mattinbgn 07:57, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Good. Okay I am going to move on this by removing Yass and Bowning from the Riverina template and adjusting their articles. I would like to just probe your thoughts on removing Stockinbingal, Springdale, and Combaning because they seem a fair way of the boundary also? -- VS  talk...images 09:46, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 * They lie between Temora and Cootamundra, both Riverina towns. My personal feeling, based on nothing more than a look on the map, would be to keep, but happy to see them removed if others feel differently.--Mattinbgn 10:01, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


 * This page on the Riverina region by Travelmate seems to support our view on Temora and Cootamundra. I think my favourite authority is http://www.rrdb.com.au/rivprofile/riverina.htm  - note excludes Albury but I can live with its inclusion - perhaps with some qualification.  Definitely excludes Yass.
 * having travelled frequently to Wee Jasper and from Wee Jasper to Tumut once, I would connect it with Yass and exclude it and Cavan from the Riverina.--Golden Wattle talk 20:31, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi Golden Wattle, I have been using the above reference too (it is neat and tidy with regards to outlining the various shire areas but I think it is a bit more of a reflection of its business focus into these areas rather than actual geography).  However the problem I have with the map on that site is that it not only precludes the Albury Shire area, but also the Balranald and Deniliquin council areas and I think we agree that these areas are within Riverina particularly because they are are north of the Murray and (for Balranald) at the confluence of the Lachlan.  Yass Valley Council is also not on the map shown at this reference - and whilst I can see Yass as excluded (but only just) I have some problems with removing Wee Jasper and Cavan.  They are both based at a river of inflow of the Burrinjuck Dam - headwaters for the Murrumbidgee Irrigation Area.  I know it could be suggested that at just over 600 metres for these towns there is an altitude problem but Tumbarumba is also at almost 600m and it is included in the above reference, and Batlow within the Tumut shire is 725m. (It is nice trip from Tumut to Wee Jasper - but it always reminds me a little of the movie Deliverance). -- VS  talk...images 22:06, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Article Improvement
(Note:Now in to-do box) We seem to have some consensus on the area of the Riverina. It may be time to see if we can expand the article a bit. Areas that need adding include:


 * Climate (a table with Climate figures for say Wagga Wagga, Corowa and Hay to take a sample)
 * Demographics (Is there a way to get a referenced population figure?)
 * Culture (regional cultural groups, literature and movies set in the Riverina)

Expansion is required for


 * History
 * Geography - area, soils, minerals, national parks.
 * Transport - including rail, and riverboat
 * Agriculture (stats would be good)
 * Politics - Local Government, regional advisory boards.

Images would also be useful, in particular:


 * dryland farming (wheat or canola crop, merino, cattle )
 * Irrigation (channels, sprinklers, rice crop or harvest) Not the greatest image, could probably be improved.
 * wine (a winery)

Please add anything else you think needs adding. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mattinbgn (talk • contribs) 23:12, 15 January 2007 (UTC).

Heading order
I don't think the order of topics is correct and thus the article structure not quite correct - the topics are OK it is just the logical flow that worries me.

Currently:

* 1 Geography * 2 History * 3 Cities, Towns and Settlements * 4 Politics * 5 Education * 6 Agriculture o 6.1 Wool o 6.2 Rice o 6.3 Wine * 7 Sport * 8 See also * 9 References * 10 External links

I think I would move agriculture to follow geography and maybe that might help - I am not sure what the answer is.--Golden Wattle talk 23:08, 24 January 2007 (UTC)


 * A proposed layout, moving much of the physical description of the Riverina to the start, then the history, followed by the facilities and administration.

* 1 Geography * 2 Demographics * 3 Agriculture (subheadings could possibly be removed and section widened to include other employment generating industries and renamed Economy or Industry) o 3.1 Wool o 3.2 Rice o 3.3 Wine * 4 History * 5 Politics * 6 Education (perhaps rename to a broader heading to allow inclusion of other items, not sure what at this stage) * 7 Sport (perhaps arts and culture can be added either by renaming this section, or adding immediately after) * 8 See also * 9 External links * 10 References

My feeling is most relevant things should be able to fit inside that framework, but if others can think of additional sections please add them to this template.--Mattinbgn 13:11, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I have moved history to come before agriculture as the agriculture section makes less sense without historical context.--Golden Wattle talk 21:46, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Bioregion
I want to add a section on the Riverina as a bioregion as per http://www.nationalparks.nsw.gov.au/npws.nsf/Content/Riverina+Bioregion - note that the boundaries are different - neither is correct at the expense of the other, just different. It may be worth developing a map that compares the different regional boundaries if somebody has the skills and patience. --Golden Wattle talk 23:08, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps a map highlighting the bioregion could be made from Image:Murray darling murrumbidgee map.gif, since it shows the rivers and could include the part which is in Victoria --Astrokey 44 01:58, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Rainfall map
Can someone who is better with colours than me. (I'm colour blind) please tell me what rainfall zone(s) the Riverina falls in on this map. Many thanks--Mattinbgn 11:02, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Hope that answers your question? -- VS talk...images 11:26, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The map is a little difficult because it doesn't show the ACT boundary (plus its small and the pastel colours are very similar in some circumstances) but to the best of my ability I would say the Riverina falls in the following groups according to the legend given -
 * A very small portion of the top of Eastern Riverina west of ACT = Uniform 500-800
 * A very small portion of the bottom of Eastern Riverina south ACT = Winter 500-800
 * The bottom half of the rest (other than the circle at about Hay) = Uniform 250-500
 * The top half of the rest (and the circle referred to above) = Winter 250-500
 * Thanks, now I need to figure out how to use it.--Mattinbgn 11:43, 29 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Pleasure - I could be slick and suggest that if it actually brings the rain it suggests - use it in any way that you can. [[Image:Biggrin-smiley.png|20px]] -- VS talk...images 12:14, 29 January 2007 (UTC)