Talk:Rivers of Ireland

More than just a list?
Irish rivers have played an enormous role in all aspects of Ireland's history, culture, economy, not to mention geography. Can we turn this article into something more than just a list? Seabhcán 17:04, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Border crossing
Out of interest - are there any rivers which flow across the border? (Northern Ireland < > Rep. of Ireland) I'm guessing there aren't? or does the Foyle manage it?--feline1 20:32, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Of course there are. It there weren't it would imply the border was a mountain ridge (watershed) or a riverbed.  The obvious one is the River Erne which crosses from Cavan to Fermanagh and back to Donegal; smaller rivers and streams flow east from south Donegal into Tyrone, north from north Monaghan into north Armagh, and south from south Armagh into Louth. The Foyle is the confluence of a Donegal river and a l'Derry one; as the Foyle it forms the border. jnestorius(talk) 22:14, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

See Template:

The River Foyle is formed by the confluence of the River Finn, which rises in, and mainly flows through, County Donegal, and the River Mourne, which flows through County Tyrone. The Finn River down in South Ulster is another example of a river which flows in and out of both jurisdictions here in Ireland. Laggan Boy (talk) 13:12, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

In fact, the River Foyle starts a few hundred yards above Lifford Bridge. So almost the entire river is half in County Donegal and half in both County Tyrone and County Derry, with the river flowing through the City of Derry. Laggan Boy (talk) 13:29, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Missing river
Smerlagh River or River Smerlagh is mentioned in an article but not listed here. Is it a river or just an alternate name for one already listed? Rmhermen (talk) 18:13, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Northern Ireland/Rep. of Ireland and lists of rivers
I understand the geographical reasoning behind combining NI/RoI lists of rivers, but clearly this will step on a number of people's toes. To try and resolve this might I suggest that we use the Rivers of Ireland article to talk about:
 * a history of rivers on the whole island and the effect they have had on life here, much of which predates the dual nationality of the island
 * a description of the river systems with particular importance in the Republic (Shannon, Boyne, etc.) with regards to the courses of the rivers, geographical info, additional anthropological info as required (perhaps Rivers of the Republic of Ireland could redirect to this heading)
 * a description of the river systems with particular importance in the North (Bann, Lagan, etc.) as in previous point (Rivers of Northern Ireland could redirect to this)
 * a description of the major systems with particular importance both sides of the border (Erne, Foyle, etc.)

With these national differences explained in the article, the List of rivers of Ireland could then be separated from the rest of the article (the long list now seems to clutter it up) and that could leave the list to be just that—an overall list of all rivers on the island, with both List of rivers of Northern Ireland and List of rivers of the Republic of Ireland linking to the same page. Any thoughts? Fattonyni (talk) 01:00, 11 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I have reverted this article to its original structure - it is not a mere list - it shows (or did) the tributary tree. If someone wants a simple list please start a "List of Rivers in Ireland" article. Sarah777 (talk) 02:38, 27 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I like the idea of having one article discuss the history/geography/importance of rivers in Ireland, and another being simply a list. However, currently there isn't enough information about this history/geography/importance to warrant a split. I think we should leave the list alone until enough of this info has been added. ~Asarlaí 21:31, 29 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I think you should leave the current article alone and work on your list. Sarah777 (talk) 21:45, 29 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Firstly, you do not own this article. Secondly, if I move the list to a separate article, it should not be repeated here and should be in alphabetical order (to match other lists of that kind). ~Asarlaí 21:59, 29 March 2009 (UTC)


 * No. It won't. This is governed by IMOS which says nothing about the issue. Sarah777 (talk) 22:28, 29 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't own it nor did I create it. But whoever did was obviously much better at communicating information to Wiki readers than those who'd destroy his work. It has no need to be in alphabetical order; perhaps the dumb "lists" of other nation's rivers should copy best practice as demonstrated here? Sarah777 (talk) 22:12, 29 March 2009 (UTC)


 * You were the one who removed a great deal of information without warning (see here). It will be in alphabetical order because that's the convention. If you wish to change that convention you can discuss it on the relevant talk pages. ~Asarlaí 22:24, 29 March 2009 (UTC)


 * If you wish to write a list, go ahead. Leave this article alone. OK? It is called "Rivers of Ireland"; not "List of..." Sarah777 (talk) 22:30, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Protected
For 1 week, whilst meaningful discussion as to the format of both articles takes place. Black Kite 22:40, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

File Removed
I've removed the jpg file "Ordnance Survey of Ireland: Rivers and their Catchment Basins 1958 (Table of Reference)". It's "Fair Use" claim was disputed. The reason for it's inclusion into the article was to verify (to Wikipedia and readers) that my source for the river lengths, which I added to the article, was authentic. However, I now assume that the mere citing of the above source - [Ordnance Survey of Ireland: Rivers and their Catchment Basins 1958 (Table of Reference)] - should suffice. Therefore I will not be disputing the "Fair Use" claim.Johnnyf1nn (talk) 01:48, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Lakes within rivers
I believe that the length of the rivers should include the length of flow through any lakes along its course. Traditionally, in the case of the River Shannon this has always been the case. However, in the case of the Bann and Erne rivers, this hasn't been the case with 80 and 64 miles respectively given as their traditional lengths. Indeed, measuring the distance between the source of the Erne, near the village of Crosskeys in county Cavan, and the sea at Ballyshannon "as the crow flies" we get almost 60 miles! I've mentioned the Corrib basin also. The Laune river should have a greater length than the length given, if Lough Leane was taken into account.Johnnyf1nn (talk) 01:48, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Merge with "List of rivers of Ireland"
This article is very similar to the "List of rivers of Ireland". I think it makes sense to merge the two articles. --Wanfried-Dublin (talk) 20:44, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

'Republic of Ireland' rivers.
It is pointless, in my opinion, categorising rivers as 'Republic of Ireland' rivers or 'Northern Ireland' rivers are so many rivers up here in Ulster flow between the two jurisdictions. Examples of such rivers are the River Foyle and the River Finn, both up here in West Ulster, and the Finn River down in South Ulster. Laggan Boy (talk) 12:39, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

The above South Ulster river should have linked to Finn River. Laggan Boy (talk) 12:41, 20 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks, and I tend to agree, but I guess there was some logic back then. I really would see rivers as an "island of Ireland" approach topic. Given the sometimes sensitivity of this sort of topic, let's see if there can be a consensus to restructure how the Rivers by Jurisdiction and Outlet Sea part is done, to simply, Rivers by Outfall Waterbody (Irish Sea / Atlantic Ocean / Celtic Sea, etc.). SeoR (talk) 13:01, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

I fully agree, mate. I certainly will abide with whatever consensus is reached. Laggan Boy (talk) 13:06, 20 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Almost every other rivers article, and in fact pretty much every geographical grouping article, is done by country. There's no reason the island of Ireland is special in that regard as its hardly the only landmass in the world with more than one country on it. Likely it should just be split into two articles, one for each country. Hundreds if not thousands of rivers worldwide cross jurisdictional boundaries, just look at the current diplomatic issues with Egypt and Ethiopia, they just get mentioned in each article as appropriate. For some reason there is a tendency to treat Ireland as some odd special case that needs to be dealt with as a single landmass instead of different countries. Canterbury Tail talk 02:00, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Fair point, per WPrj:Rivers, but then yes, two separate articles. I think we know why these issues arise, but we don't want to encourage exceptionalism, no. SeoR (talk) 09:06, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Obviously Ireland is 'some odd special' case. Just ask Boris Johnson!! Look at the Northern Ireland Protocol, mate!! There is no way, absolutely no way, that Scotland or Wales would have been treated like that. But Boris thought: 'Ah, sure, Northern Ireland is different'!! So we are 'some odd special case', as us folk living here on 'the border' in East Donegal and West Tyrone can tell you mate. Ireland is one country, divided into two sovereign states. Or two 'jurisdictions' as many of us up here in Ulster like to say, following the very worthwhile Ulster habit of 'constructive ambiguity'.

I also feel that Canterbury Tale is actually abusing the well-meaning, well-intentioned Wikipedia rules about what Ireland is and what Ireland should be called in order to push and promote his hardline, 'partitionist', pro-British view of Ireland. I take the view of John Hume myself, that we are all one people on this wee island or country called Ireland. Setting up two completely separate Wikipedia pages for rivers in the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland is hardline Unionist partitionism gone mad. That's just my own view. Laggan Boy (talk) 10:12, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
 * The fact is Ireland (landmass and island) is split between two different countries, as acknowledged by the entire world, including those two countries. It's not one country, it is two separate ones. Should it be? Maybe not but this is the world we live in. I support unification myself, though I don't believe that the Republic of Ireland would want to support the massive financial hit of taking in Northern Ireland, though that's a completely different conversation. I just acknowledge the world for what it is, not what I would like it to be or should be. United Kingdom (represented by Northern Ireland here) and (Republic of) Ireland are two completely different countries that share a border on an island that shares a name with one of those states. This isn't a jurisdictional change like a US state, or a county border, but two completely separate countries. It is what it is. We're all entitled to our views, but here we need to observe verifiable reality not our views. Canterbury Tail talk 12:46, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Not simply my 'view', mate. It's our lived reality here on 'the border' area of East Donegal, West Tyrone, Derry City and Inishowen. I cross that imposed 'border' about six or seven times per day, going back and forward across Lifford Bridge. That's how we 'roll' up here, mate!! There's as many members of my family living just across the Foyle in West Tyrone as there are here in East Donegal. As Seamus Heaney would have said, up here we are all 'through other'. I just think that a hardline interpretation of Wikipedia's necessary rules on all these issues helps nobody. And further: such hardline interpretations doesn't reflect the actual truth, the actual reality, here on the ground.

And on the cost of reunification: it won't be near as expensive as Southern, Dublin-based politicians and journalists make it. About Stg£3.5 billion per year of the cost of 'running' the Six Counties is taken up largely with pensions that the British Government will still be obliged to pay, under international norms, after reunification. All these figures can be found on reputable sites online. Laggan Boy (talk) 13:28, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes and I used to drive across between France and Switzerland multiple times a day, with no one to stop me or check anything, just to get from one side of Geneva to another, but you don't find anyone claiming that they're the same country. People in the EU drop between countries multiple times a day as well, again no issues. Your ability to walk between them doesn't mean they're not separate. Even the governments acknowledge that. Canterbury Tail talk 13:52, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Mate, seriously? Are you comparing crossing from Lifford to Strabane to being the same as crossing from Switzerland to France?!!!! Mother of God, help us!! I think this conversation has run its course. 🤣 Laggan Boy (talk) 15:20, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, as they're two separate countries. And those points that you're referring to did indeed in the past have border crossing posts. Canterbury Tail <i style="color: Blue;">talk</i> 15:50, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

You've hit the nail on the head, by the way, when you said above that, when you were driving from Switzerland into France unimpeded, 'you don't find anyone claiming that they're the same country'. That's the point, mate. The people of Lifford and Strabane consider themselves as being in the same country, Ireland, and that they are both part of the Irish nation. And the vast majority of us who actually live here in Lifford and Strabane want the two towns to be part of the same sovereign state, preferably a united, democratic Irish republic of some sort. That's the BIG difference, mate, between here and Switzerland and France, as well you know. Laggan Boy (talk) 16:50, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Want and desire have nothing to do with reality. They’re separate countries. Anyway let’s let others talk, we’ve both made our points. <b style="color: Blue;">Canterbury Tail</b> <i style="color: Blue;">talk</i> 17:18, 26 July 2021 (UTC)