Talk:Rivethead/Archive 1

Could this article be more biased?
"Because of their liking for black clothes and trench coats, Klebold & Harris were mistakenly labelled by the media as "Goths", a peaceful, non-violent subculture which became a scapegoat for the ensuing media witchhunt."

Could we please keep the Rivetheads and Goths from vandalizing this article? Æniad (talk) 19:32, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Eh?
It's pretty obviously wrong. Gothic subculture developed as a responce to the sound and aesthetic of the punk scene. Goth in no way developed first. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.132.199.242 (talk) 03:31, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I tagged it with Citation Needed. Half of this article seems to be original research. The other half does not cite it's sources.
 * It is time for a serious rewrite, this time, according to offical policies of WP. I hope someone is interested, because I simply don't have time to do it alone.
 * --DJFishlips (talk) 03:01, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok, now this has gone too far...
1) "'Rivethead' was born from the EBM subculture, not industrial".

Man, this must be one of the dumbest things I've heard. If that's true, show me your sources! Because I can show you who first used rivethead in an Industrial Music context and when it was first used.

Also, EBM is an outgrowth of Industrial music. So it's a subgenre at most, and not an entirely separate musical entity. You know what were the early influences of Nitzer Ebb and Front 242? DAF, Cabaret Voltaire and Throbbing Gristle.

Hmmm... In what genre of music do these last three belong again? Goth rock?

2) "It's more like goths than anything else".

That's cybergoth newbie babble; the work of goth teenagers trying to steal the poppier side of Industrial music to themselves - stuff like Futurepop. Goth music is The Cure, The Sisters of Mercy, Joy Division, Fields of the Nephilim... ever heard of 'em?

3) "The term 'rivethead' was first coined by the Edinburgh based British cultural critic Alan Cruickshank (see DJ Parasyt)".

How does a 19 year old kid coin the term rivethead? I mean, back in 1993, when it was first used in the Industrial counterculture, how old was this guy? 4 years old? This seems rather absurd, doesn't it?

Musicaindustrial 18:09, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Industrial is a separate article.
"Rivethead" should not explain "Industrial". I'm going to try to fix it.

Yes, this page must cite Industrial.
How can someone - for example - describe Punks without saying a word about the Anarchy and the Sex Pistols? Without the music and the ideas you're just describing a dumb stereotype - spiked hair, torn clothes, anarchy patch on the back of the jacket, etc.

And that is a complete disservice to any youth culture.

Musicaindustrial 17:46, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Rivet Head Culture wasn't an EBM compilation...
Rivet Head Culture was the beginning of Coldwave – a specifically American subgenre of Industrial Music (see Chemlab, 16 Volt, etc). Coldwave has loads of guitars in it – a thing which “true” EBM fans loathe, by the way. So, no EBM here.

Musicaindustrial 17:09, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

--- So some of it's not EBM, it's synth-rock. Still not industrial. ---

Synth-rock?
Is that really a music style? Who are it's representatives? What are it's characteristics? Burzum, Moby and Nine Inch Nails mix rock with synthesizers, but are they really alike?

Musicaindustrial 18:17, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Since when "Rivethead music" is different from Industrial Music?
Cite your sources!

Musicaindustrial 17:14, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

How come the Industrial Counterculture associated is with the Rave / Clubber subculture? I don’t think so!
I’m really disturbed by that association. People, please: these two are a very different set of cultures.

For one, the philosophy’s completely different. Ravers abide by P.L.U.R., which is basically the updated “peace & love” motto for the Ecstasy Generation. On the opposite corner stands Industrial Music’s interests, which thrive on things despicable to the hippie culture: the Manson Family and Nazism, for example. The Rave culture is about the renaissance of the Hippie culture, while Industrial Music was about its death.

Two, club culture is all about hedonism; there’s no interest in politics or anything remotely connected to a “greater cause”. Yes, most Industrial acts are explicitly non-political (except for Test Department and those Right-wing Neofolk groups), but social commentary has always been a tradition in Industrial Music circles. Even something like DAF’s nonsensical “Der Mussolini” whipped a storm of controversy when initially released in Germany.

Third, the drug of choice of the ‘Ecstasy Generation’ is telling: MDMA, a psychoactive substance that just for a few hours makes you love everybody else in the world. Can any of you imagine a bunch of Rivetheads cuddling together on a dance floor?

C’mon people, that sounds ludicrous.

Fourth, the sort of chemically-induced happiness that Ravers adore sounds naïve and artificial to most Rivetheads. Industrial Music has always been about facing reality, warts and all. This sort of aggressive (but down-to-earth) attitude doesn’t really side with the sunny dispositions of stoned, utopian neo-hippie kids… Does it?

Fifth (and last!), Chris Ho of O magazine once said that Nitzer Ebb and Nine Inch Nails were “the punk rock of electronic music” while acid house was it’s discothèque – empty, repetitive and crassly commercial music. I think that this same kind of logic might be applied to electronica in general (except for a few subgenres like Breakcore, IDM, Gabber, Digital Hardcore, etc). Sadly, electronica’s pop-tart mentality has rubbed off in some contemporary EBM acts, mainly Futurepop groups.

Musicaindustrial 17:26, 10 August 2007 (UTC)


 * So some guy said industrial was punk and all other electronic was disco. So what?
 * And what makes you think industrial is so much more deep and meaningful than other genres
 * of electronic music? Most electronic music is for DANCING, not making a political
 * statement. That is why it is repetitive! And I would say that most industrial is
 * fairly repetitive. Better apolitical than pseudo-Nazi.


 * And calling the "opposition" (as if there are only rivetheads and ravers, you can't like two genres) stoned, utopian hippies is stupid.

It is "deeper" and "more meaningful" than most genres of electronic music. No doubt about that. Go read some RE/Search magazines, the three volumes of Rapid Movement Movement or Charles Neal's Tape Delay book to see what I mean. There's a rare few genres in pop music that can match up to industrial music's set of concepts and ideas.

Also, the vast majority of Industrial Music artists aren't pseudo-Nazis at all... not even close. There's an irony behind their imagery. Musicaindustrial 16:58, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Instead of referencing to magazines and books, please give some links (where possible) or at least a issue/page number, so we can verify (or take a look at) their contents!
 * Also, the vast majority of Industrial Music artists does not include EVERY Industrial Music artist.
 * You know, NPOV is absolute :).
 * Best regards, DJFishlips (talk) 03:15, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

...
So you think all electronic music is gay and shitty except industrial? The article is supposed to be neutral though.


 * So you think all electronic music is gay (...) except industrial?

There's a lot of homosexuals in Industrial Music (Coil, for one), so being gay is not really an issue in this scene. Musicaindustrial 16:58, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * So you think all electronic music is (...) shitty except industrial?

I like electronica - I have CDs from Massive Attack, Orbital, Aphex Twin, The Prodigy, etc. My original intention wasn't to diss electronica - sorry it came out that way - but you gotta understand that between Industrial Music and electronica there's a completely different frame of mind. I really wanted to get that across, and in the process I might have overreacted. Musicaindustrial 16:58, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

blah
Okay, look at noise or old industrial's members or fanbase. What are they wearing? What is the attitude? Now do the same with EBM/Futurepop whatever.

Are there any similarities? Would these people like to hang out or chat about philosophies together?

There is much hostility between industrial enthusiasts and "rivetheads". The word "rivethead" is often used as an insult by members of the former group. And how can a form of experimental music have any sort of subculture? The whole point is to question things and celebrate differences.

Have I misinterpreted years of this sort of thing or what?

You are so totally right. The original Industrial Scene.. there was no Scene. Ther was no real fashion. It was so limited; it was an experimental musical genre that really was absorbed into the later Post-Punk musical developments.

I mean, a Scene would seem to connote concerts, music clubs. BUT THERE WAS NO REAL SUBCULTRE, NO CLUBS NO SUCH THING!

In Los Angeles Industrial music is synonymous with Dance music not Throbbing Gristle.

And I think this argument that Rivetheads are not derivitive from Goths, is an exaggeration of this early Industrial Scene, which never existed.

Btw, I do not like Industrial Dance music (EBM). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.106.187.71 (talk) 21:53, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

This article has been raped...
It's all... non-encyclopedic.


 * So you prefer "Rivetheads just listen to EBM and some Dark Ambient,
 * wear multiple piercings and are the new Goths"? And "Oh yes, the
 * word "Rivethead" was invented by a British guy when he was 4 years old"?


 * Doesn't that sound bizarre, or is it just me?


 * Musicaindustrial 20:43, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Abow the New Edits on this Article's Introduction
"A Rivethead is a person associated with the Industrial Music subculture".


 * Actually, the urban tribe built around Industrial Music is not a subculture. It's a counterculture.

"Industrial Music was coined in 1976 as another subgenre of the Punk movement".


 * Not true either. Cabaret Voltaire started recording their music in 1974, and Throbbing Gristle (then known as COUM Transmissions) in 1975. Which means: they started doing their music 1-2 years before The Ramones, The Damned or The Sex Pistols released their first records. So, how could Industrial be considered a Punk Rock subgenre if the latter didn't exist yet?


 * It is also important to note that, musically speaking, early Industrial music and Punk Rock were worlds apart. They could never be grouped together.

"Gothic subculture developed first".


 * The sources used in the article contradict that statement.

Musicaindustrial (talk) 19:37, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Urban tribe to subculture and Gabber removed
I changed the "Related Urban Tribes" section title to "Related Subcultures", and removed Gabber.

Gabber is a music genre, not a subculture. And, as far as I know, Gabber music is not related to Rivetheads or the Industrial subculture. If someone feels it's related to Industrial, then please include it in the article Industrial music instead. --DJFishlips (talk) 02:40, 24 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Gabber came from Hardcore Techno, which in turn came from Acid House. Chapter 7 of Matthew Collin's Altered State: The Story of Ecstasy Culture and Acid House (1997) documents the history of this particular dance music subgenre very well. Musicaindustrial 12:16, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Gabber actually is, or at least was a small subculture in the Netherlands. Also known as "Lonsdale Kids"  , they had a reputation of being hooligans. Whether or not they associated themselves with rivetheads I don't know.

Citing BlackWaterfall
I repaired the citation link to the source BlackWaterFall about rivetheads (http://www.blackwaterfall.com/7rivethead.php), however the source does not verify the claim it is connected with. Is it worth a serious discussion or must it be removed? --DJFishlips (talk) 16:45, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Link spam.
The external links need a major clean up. Surv1v4l1st (Talk 16:50, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Recent anon. edits
The recent edits by the anon. 94.134.22.179 inserted incorrect information into the article while at the same time removing other information with no explanation. The term Rivethead is associated with people in the industrial music scene, predating post-industrial music. Furthermore, there is no reason to specify that this is a North American scene, especially without offering a source that says it is specific to the US and Canada. Are there no rivetheads in England, for example? In addition, changing "industrial" to "Electro-Industrial and Industrial Rock" was unnecessary since simply saying industrial covers the subgenres. And no reason at all was given for removing information from the aesthetics section. The anon. cannot simply substitute his opinion for relevant information. If he wants to challenge something because it is unreferenced, he can say so, but simply removing information with no explanation is improper. ---  RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive' 00:59, 10 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Rivethead is a North American phenomenon. There is no Rivethead culture in Europe. The term was never used there. Furthermore, the Rivet Head Culture compilation contains nothing more than Electro-industrial and Industrial rock bands. It's simply Post-industrial music, also called Industrial Dance in the 1980s and early 1990s (in Canada and the US). The original Industrial music has nothing to with Dance or Rock music. Industrial music was Anti-Rock. Industrial rock is a subgenre of Rock music . Nine Inch Nails is Rock music . Ministry is Rock music . And please, show me a Rivethead with (welding) goggles. Goggles belong to Cyber. In the heyday of the Rivethead culture, nobody wore googles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.134.21.186 (talk) 16:06, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

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Industrial lacks melody
Aside from the article itself being a sore thumb, what I noticed the most from it is the line: "The absence of conventional song structures, such as rhythm and melody, is a main characteristic of the genre." This simply isn't true, from an objective point of view and my subjective experience. I'm pretty sure anyone who actively listens to industrial music can vouch for me too. &#60;-·&#39;¯&#39;·.Ðé§§í©átéÐ ©ó®þ§é.·&#39;¯&#39;·-&#62; (talk) 03:14, 8 July 2021 (UTC)