Talk:Rob Mathes

first paragraph replacement
Rob Mathes is an Emmy-winning, Tony, and Drama Desk Award nominated arranger, composer, producer and musical director. He has produced recordings by Sting, Rod Stewart, Carly Simon, Beth Hart, Vanessa Williams, Bettye LaVette, Melissa Errico, and the band Panic! at The Disco. He is an Emmy winner for his music direction of the Kennedy Center Honors for CBS, and he arranged and musically directed Sting's world tour with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra. Mathes helmed HBO's We Are One: The Obama Inaugural Celebration at the Lincoln Memorial featuring Stevie Wonder, James Taylor, John Legend, U2, and Beyonce and has musically directed the Songwriters Hall of Fame Awards for over two decades. He has written and conducted the orchestral arrangements for three Bruce Springsteen records, including the critically acclaimed recording and film Western Stars, and served as musical director for Springsteen's MusicCares Grammy Person of The Year tribute in 2013 featuring Neil Young, Jackson Browne, Tom Morello, and Ben Harper. Mathes has musically directed many evenings for the David Lynch Foundation, including a concert in LA featuring Moby, The Flaming Lips, Lykke Li, and Angelo Badalamenti released on the album Music of David Lynch, and a concert at Carnegie Hall featuring Katy Perry, Angelique Kidjo, Jim James, and Sting.
 * Specific text to be added or removed:

I have been hired by Rob Mathes to bring his Wikipedia article fully up to date with more complete information, improved accuracy and improved citations and am intending to submit a complete re-write in sections. Here I am submitting for approval a rewrite of the first paragraph only. This is intended to replace the existing first paragraph entirely, from "Rob Mathes (born September 10, 1970)" to "He also writes bluesy spiritual-pop music."
 * Reason for the change:

COLORGRAYdesign (talk) 13:33, 20 April 2023 (UTC) COLORGRAYdesign (talk) 13:33, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
 * References supporting change:
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: Per WP:ALLMUSIC, the reliability of this source is questionable; a better source will need to be provided for this.


 * More importantly, this proposed lead section reads like a discography. While it may be appropriate to add a table with a well-sourced list of his work in a dedicated section, this list does not belong in the lead. Actualcpscm (talk) 12:02, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I appreciate your feedback. Rob Mathes' catalog of work is so massive that I felt the proposed opening paragraph was really functioning as a quick overview. That said, I am in agreement with shortening it and will resubmit a version that is less discography-like. Regarding AllMusic, my understanding is that some editors question its accuracy regarding biographical details whereas I am linking directly to the credits section for Rob Mathes. AllMusic has been present as a primary citation in Rob's Wikipedia article for many years and is the only available nearly-comprehensive list of Mathes' credits. Do I need to avoid using AllMusic entirely? COLORGRAYdesign (talk) 16:14, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I understand your thought processes regarding the lead, but leads don't function as discographies or discography-summaries at all. Their purpose is to introduce the subject of the article; if you look at the leads of other musicians, you'll see that they rarely mention more than one or two songs or song-specific credits. Of course, Mathes can't be directly compared to a musician because that is not the role he fulfills, but it's much more appropriate for a lead to include a brief history of someone's notability. Most articles on music-related living persons list their first major album, song, or other credit, for example. But not that much more. WP:LEAD gives a useful summary: "The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies." I added the emphasis; even a heavily abridged discography does not stand on its own, the lead should summarise all article content.
 * I think this discussion of AllMusic provides a good summary of the discussion so far. I'd like to highlight the contribution starting with "Overused tertiary across Wikipedia..."; AllMusic might be somewhat reliable for reporting of credits, but they might not be an independent source in the strict sense. It's tolerated as a source because, as you mention, its records are very comprehensive.
 * In this case, it should also be noted that AllMusic is not the only source establishing notability; far from it. Because WP:N is not really a concern here (especially with the awards Mathes has won), it's fine to use it, and you don't need to avoid it entirely. I would just be careful not to overuse it, and it might be necessary to find additional reliable sources for especially contentious claims. Actualcpscm (talk) 18:26, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Incredibly helpful comments, thank you! I'll go back to the drawing board to adjust and return at a later date. COLORGRAYdesign (talk) 19:44, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

first paragraph replacement, revised

 * Specific text to be added or removed:

Rob Mathes (born November 21, 1963) is an arranger, composer, producer and musical director. A singer-songwriter and multi-instrumentalist artist in his own right, Mathes has also released several albums of solo work which reside in a stylistic realm somewhat adjacent to inspirational and blues-influenced.

I have been hired by Rob Mathes to bring his Wikipedia article fully up to date with more complete information, improved accuracy and improved citations. Here I am submitting for approval a revised rewrite of the first paragraph. This is intended to replace the existing first paragraph entirely, from "Rob Mathes (born September 10, 1970)" to "He also writes bluesy spiritual-pop music." I have also included a revised infobox since the birth date in the current article is inaccurate, alma_mater is no longer used, and I have included a photo.
 * Reason for the change:


 * References supporting change:

COLORGRAYdesign (talk) 21:53, 12 May 2023 (UTC)


 * It seems to be written from a neutral point of view, and I believe it can be added to the article. I would like a third opinion on the neutrality of it. Dylan &#124; &#9993; &#124; ✓ 02:01, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
 * This seems to have put a hold on things. Is there something I need to do to move this along? COLORGRAYdesign (talk) 12:40, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
 * @COLORGRAYdesign -- There seems to be a large COI backlog, I apologise. It goes back to February. A pending changes reviewer should come along eventually as your edit request is showing up in the list. Dylan &#124; &#9993; &#124; ✓ 14:47, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Can you kindly clarify how the neutrality is in contention here? Compared to the opening paragraph that has been in place for years I am not actually presenting any new information, other than a correction to Rob's birth date. Thank you. COLORGRAYdesign (talk) 21:50, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I think some people could find that starting off the first sentence with his awards could be less than neutral, especially when introduced by somebody with a COI. Wikipedia is very strict when comes to neutrality of articles. Personally, I don’t see any problem with it however. Thanks, Dylan &#124; &#9993; &#124; ✓ 21:59, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Understood. Would it be possible to speed things along by simply going with the following:
 * Rob Mathes (born November 21, 1963) is an arranger, composer, producer and musical director. A singer-songwriter and multi-instrumentalist artist in his own right, Mathes has also released several albums of solo work which reside in a stylistic realm somewhat adjacent to inspirational and blues-influenced. COLORGRAYdesign (talk) 23:36, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Yea I think that would work, you should edit the top of this thread with that to avoid confusion. Thanks! Dylan &#124; &#9993; &#124; ✓ 00:22, 8 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Okay, I have updated this thread with the changes - award mentions removed from new first paragraph. COLORGRAYdesign (talk) 17:10, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
 * @COLORGRAYdesign - Ok, great. I myself can't make the change as I'm not a pending changes reviewer but one should come along eventually. Have a good day! Dylan &#124; &#9993; &#124; ✓ 17:13, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
 * It's not clear what changes are being requested here. There is some suggested text shown above, I'm assuming for the lead section, but there are no references shown. As the lead section typically contains information which is referenced in the body of the article, the location for where these new references (if any) placed within the body of the article needs to be included here. Spintendo  03:41, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The changes being requested are those immediately following the text "specific text to be added or removed:" at the top of this section, entitled "first paragraph replacement, revised". The changes are intended to entirely replace the lead paragraph along with the info box. I didn't include any citations since I don't believe there is anything in the lead text that is likely to be challenged. The citation that exists in the current, un-replaced lead paragraph contains a dead link which is not reused in the body of the current article. COLORGRAYdesign (talk) 22:21, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
 * @COLORGRAYdesign — courtesy ping, see Spintendo’s comment above FatalFit &#124; &#9993; &#124; ✓ 03:50, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

full rewrite for consideration

 * Specific text to be added or removed:

Rob Mathes (born November 21, 1963) is an arranger, composer, producer and musical director. A singer-songwriter and multi-instrumentalist artist in his own right, Mathes has also released several albums of solo work.

Mathes was born in Boston, Massachusetts to classical musicians and music instructors Joan and George Mathes. The family moved to Greenwich, Connecticut, where his parents taught music with the local schools and privately. Mathes showed interest and skill in music at a very early age. In his youth, Mathes attended Berklee College of Music where he studied under John Mehegan, a jazz pianist who was a Juilliard faculty member at that time, and later he left Berklee College of Music to study orchestration and counterpoint, privately, under Myron Fink.

By high school, Mathes was already working regularly as a professional writer and performer in the clubs of nearby New York City. He toured with Chuck Mangione in his early 20s, playing guitar and keyboards. Mathes then began to focus on writing and arranging in Nashville, and soon was writing songs for Bonnie Raitt, Kathy Mattea, Aaron Neville, Wynonna Judd, Faith Hill, Oleta Adams, Alabama, and Randy Travis.

Mathes works frequently as a record producer in a wide range of genres. He produced three Sting albums: Symphonicities, The Best of 25 Years, and The Last Ship. Mathes has also produced many other artists including Rod Stewart, Carly Simon, Beth Hart, Vanessa Williams, Bettye LaVette, Michael Cavanaugh, Melissa Errico, and bands Panic! at The Disco and The Young Veins.

Mathes has written orchestrations for a number of artists all over the stylistic spectrum, including Elton John, Sting, Tony Bennett, Lou Reed, Mavis Staples, Jay Z, Lenny Kravitz, Mary J. Blige, Beck, Aretha Franklin, Mariah Carey, Harry Connick Jr., Fall Out Boy, Renée Fleming, Bryn Terfel, Deborah Voigt, Yo-Yo Ma and Bruce Springsteen.

Mathes arranged and musically directed Sting's 2010 world tour with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra. Mathes wrote and conducted the orchestral arrangements for three Bruce Springsteen records, including the critically acclaimed recording and film Western Stars, and served as musical director for Springsteen's MusicCares Grammy Person of The Year tribute in 2013 featuring Neil Young, Jackson Browne, Tom Morello, and Ben Harper.

Mathes arranged Renée Fleming's 2014 Super Bowl performance of The “Star-Spangled Banner”, recorded by the New Jersey Symphony and published by Hal Leonard. Mathes’s arrangement of Led Zeppelin’s “Stairway to Heaven” for the band Heart (Ann and Nancy Wilson), performed at the Kennedy Center Honors, led to him being asked by Robert Plant and Jimmy Page to testify at the trial over the song’s publishing rights, which they won.

Mathes arranged music for the Three Tenors-Live in Paris concert and was the arranger and guitarist for almost a decade of Pavarotti and Friends charity concerts held annually in Modena, Italy, Luciano Pavarotti’s hometown. Mathes contributed as arranger and conductor on The Three Tenors' studio version of You'll Never Walk Alone (1998). Many of these collaborations arose from Mathes’s longtime relationship with the legendary producer Phil Ramone (Billy Joel, Paul Simon, Frank Sinatra, among many others). Mathes arranged a duet of the Van Morrison classic “Crazy Love” for Van and Ray Charles on Charles’s Grammy-winning Genius Loves Company (Album of The Year) and was the arranger and pianist on the late George Michael’s Songs from the Last Century album, both produced by Ramone.

Mathes orchestrated and conducted the song scores for the films In The Heights, The Greatest Showman starring Hugh Jackman , and Tick, Tick... Boom!, directed by Lin-Manuel Miranda. He wrote all the arrangements for Panic! at The Disco’s #1 record, Pray For The Wicked and 2022’s Viva Las Vengeance. Mathes orchestrated the band Weezer’s record OK Human and conducted the band’s streamed concert with the Los Angeles Philharmonic at the Walt Disney Concert Hall.

During 2020, the first year of the COVID pandemic, the David Lynch Foundation decided to do their annual benefit online and Mathes produced and arranged the tracks for five music videos featuring Elvis Costello, Jim James, Kesha, Larkin Poe, Sting, Graham Nash, the Brooklyn Youth Chorus and Angélique Kidjo, used in the David Lynch Foundation's Meditate America campaign. In early 2022, Sting enlisted Mathes to co-arrange and [Music director|musically direct]] a reggae record of Frank Sinatra songs Sting was producing for the artist Shaggy called Com Fly Wid Me.

As a composer, Mathes was nominated for a Best Original Score Emmy twice; for the HBO movie Thurgood, starring Lawrence Fishburne, and the HBO documentary Herblock. Grammy-winning conductor Leonard Slatkin commissioned Mathes to write a score for The Los Angeles Philharmonic based on George Gershwin themes. Mathes’s piece “Gershwiniana” was performed by Slatkin many times since its premiere. Mathes’s A Standing Ground: Concertino for Orchestra was premiered by The Nashville Symphony and Slatkin in 2009. In 2010, Mahler expert Gilbert Kaplan, who owns the original manuscript of Mahler’s 2nd Symphony, commissioned Mathes to make a reduction with Kaplan of the symphony for smaller forces, published by Universal Music.

Mathes’ songs have been recorded by Bonnie Raitt, Aaron Neville, Vanessa Williams, Faith Hill, Wynonna Judd, and Rascall Flatts, and he co-wrote several songs with Sting for his album The Last Ship.

Mathes has also released his own albums, including Evening Train (a cult favorite among artists such as Phil Ramone, Jimmy Webb and Warren Zevon ), William the Angel (a Christmas album), Orchestral Songs, Rob Mathes: Beyond the Music (a live broadcast and accompanying sound track), Everywhere, Flesh & Spirit and Wheelbarrow.

Perhaps best known among his performances are yearly Christmas concerts, which have spawned two PBS television specials; Christmas Is Coming: Rob Mathes and Friends (featuring Michael McDonald, David Sanborn, Ossie Davis, and Vanessa Williams) and I Want To Hear The Bells, a documentary of his first Christmas concert in 1993. Mathes celebrated 25 years of performing his annual holiday concerts in 2018 with special guests Sting, Vanessa Williams and David Sanborn joining him on stage for a few holiday-themed songs.

Mathes’s work with the Kennedy Center Honors landed him what was the most star-studded show of his career, We Are One: The Obama Inaugural Celebration at the Lincoln Memorial in 2008, with performances by Beyoncé, Mary J. Blige, Bono, Garth Brooks, Sheryl Crow, Renée Fleming, Josh Groban, Jon Bon Jovi, Herbie Hancock, Heather Headley, John Legend, Jennifer Nettles, John Mellencamp, Usher, Shakira, Bruce Springsteen, James Taylor, will.i.am and Stevie Wonder.

Mathes musically directed the Songwriters Hall of Fame Awards for over two decades In addition to his 2012 win, Mathes was nominated in 2006 for Outstanding Music Direction (Kennedy Center Honors, CBS), in 2009 for Outstanding Music Direction (Kennedy Center Honors, CBS), in 2010 for Outstanding Music Direction (Kennedy Center Honors, CBS), in 2011 for Outstanding Music Composition For A Miniseries, Movie Or A Special (Original Dramatic Score, Thurgood, HBO), in 2011 for Outstanding Music Direction (Kennedy Center Honors, CBS), in 2013 for Outstanding Music Direction (Kennedy Center Honors, CBS), in 2014 for Outstanding Music Composition For A Miniseries, Movie Or A Special (Original Dramatic Score, Herblock: The Black & The White, HBO), and in 2015 for Outstanding Music Direction (Kennedy Center Honors, CBS).

Mathes was nominated for both a Tony Award (Best Orchestration, 2015) and a Drama Desk Award (Outstanding Orchestrations, 2015) for his work on the Broadway production of Sting's musical The Last Ship.

Mathes wrote the title track, the song "Good News," on Kathy Mattea's album Good News which won a Grammy in 1993 in the category Best Southern, Country or Bluegrass Gospel Album. Mathes did extensive arranging work on Vanessa Williams's album Star Bright, which was nominated for a Grammy in 1997 in the category Best Pop/Contemporary Gospel Album and featured the title cut "Star Bright," which Mathes wrote. Mathes produced and contributed as musical director, arranger, conductor, acoustic guitarist, electric guitarist, keyboardist and pianist on Bettye LaVette's album Interpretations: The British Rock Songbook, which was nominated for a Grammy in 2011 in the category Best Contemporary Blues Album. In 2022, Mathes co-arranged and musically directed the Sting-produced record of Frank Sinatra songs by the artist Shaggy called Com Fly Wid Me. The album was nominated for a Grammy in the category Best Reggae Album.


 * List of music arrangers


 * Official website

I have been working with Rob Mathes, who pays me directly for this service, to bring his Wikipedia article fully up to date with more complete information, improved accuracy and improved citations. I have previously tried making edit requests in small chunks, as advised by one of Wikipedia's moderators, but unfortunately moderators have sometimes been slow to respond and in one case appear to have failed to respond entirely. I do wish to make it clear that Wikipedia moderators have been helpful and have made great suggestions for improvements to some earlier submissions. Their willingness to assist has been most appreciated.
 * Reason for the change (see below for specific text to be added or removed):

In discussion with Rob Mathes we determined together that proceeding to try and get small pieces of my re-write accepted could take a very long time if the current rate of progress were to continue being replicated. In addition and in relation to citations, it seems that submitting my rewrite in small sections from top to bottom would require some complicated citation revisions further down in the article each time, thus making the piecemeal process cumbersome for everyone. In response, we decided to have me try and submit my entire re-write in one fell swoop in the hopes that this approach will make the most sense to everyone. I have submitted my entire rewrite for Wikipedia's consideration. What is sumbitted here is intended to replace the entire existing article.

COLORGRAYdesign (talk) 21:15, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Reply 10-SEP-2023
Regards, Spintendo  22:45, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Portions of your proposed text were found to be insufficiently paraphrased from the source material. Per WP:CLOSEPARAPHRASE, text that is to be added to the article needs to be written using your own words, not the words of others.
 * Since you have chosen to submit your request all at once, this decline, although applying to only a section of text, is given all at once.
 * Please feel free to submit a new edit request below this reply post at your earliest convenience.


 * I see that what you have pointed out is indeed the case. I will attend to the close paraphrase issue and resubmit. Many thanks. COLORGRAYdesign (talk) 21:18, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

full rewrite for consideration, adjusted

 * Specific text to be added or removed:

Rob Mathes (born November 21, 1963) is an arranger, composer, producer and musical director. A singer-songwriter and multi-instrumentalist artist in his own right, Mathes has also released several albums of solo work.

Mathes was born in Boston, Massachusetts to classical musicians and music instructors Joan and George Mathes. The family moved to Greenwich, Connecticut, where his parents taught music with the local schools and privately. Mathes showed interest and skill in music at a very early age. In his youth, Mathes attended Berklee College of Music where he studied under John Mehegan, a jazz pianist who was a Juilliard faculty member at that time, and later he left Berklee College of Music to study orchestration and counterpoint, privately, under Myron Fink.

By high school, Mathes was already working regularly as a professional writer and performer in the clubs of nearby New York City. He toured with Chuck Mangione in his early 20s, playing guitar and keyboards. Mathes then began to focus on writing and arranging in Nashville, and soon was writing songs for Bonnie Raitt, Kathy Mattea, Aaron Neville, Wynonna Judd, Faith Hill, Oleta Adams, Alabama, and Randy Travis.

Mathes works frequently as a record producer in a wide range of genres. He produced three Sting albums: Symphonicities, The Best of 25 Years, and The Last Ship. Mathes has also produced many other artists including Rod Stewart, Carly Simon, Beth Hart, Vanessa Williams, Bettye LaVette, Michael Cavanaugh, Melissa Errico, and bands Panic! at The Disco and The Young Veins.

Mathes has written orchestrations for a number of artists all over the stylistic spectrum, including Elton John, Sting, Tony Bennett, Lou Reed, Mavis Staples, Jay Z, Lenny Kravitz, Mary J. Blige, Beck, Aretha Franklin, Mariah Carey, Harry Connick Jr., Fall Out Boy, Renée Fleming, Bryn Terfel, Deborah Voigt, Yo-Yo Ma and Bruce Springsteen.

Mathes arranged and musically directed Sting's 2010 world tour with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra. Mathes wrote and conducted the orchestral arrangements for three Bruce Springsteen records, including the critically acclaimed recording and film Western Stars, and served as musical director for Springsteen's MusicCares Grammy Person of The Year tribute in 2013 featuring Neil Young, Jackson Browne, Tom Morello, and Ben Harper.

Mathes arranged Renée Fleming's 2014 Super Bowl performance of The “Star-Spangled Banner”, recorded by the New Jersey Symphony and published by Hal Leonard. Mathes’s arrangement of Led Zeppelin’s “Stairway to Heaven” for the band Heart (Ann and Nancy Wilson), performed at the Kennedy Center Honors, led to him being asked by Robert Plant and Jimmy Page to testify at the trial over the song’s publishing rights, which they won.

Mathes arranged music for the Three Tenors-Live in Paris concert and was the arranger and guitarist for almost a decade of Pavarotti and Friends charity concerts held annually in Modena, Italy, Luciano Pavarotti’s hometown. Mathes contributed as arranger and conductor on The Three Tenors' studio version of You'll Never Walk Alone (1998). Many of these collaborations arose from Mathes’s longtime relationship with the legendary producer Phil Ramone (Billy Joel, Paul Simon, Frank Sinatra, among many others). Mathes arranged a duet of the Van Morrison classic “Crazy Love” for Van and Ray Charles on Charles’s Grammy-winning Genius Loves Company (Album of The Year) and was the arranger and pianist on the late George Michael’s Songs from the Last Century album, both produced by Ramone.

Mathes orchestrated and conducted the song scores for the films In The Heights, The Greatest Showman starring Hugh Jackman , and Tick, Tick... Boom!, directed by Lin-Manuel Miranda. He wrote all the arrangements for Panic! at The Disco’s #1 record, Pray For The Wicked and 2022’s Viva Las Vengeance. Mathes orchestrated the band Weezer’s record OK Human and conducted the band’s streamed concert with the Los Angeles Philharmonic at the Walt Disney Concert Hall.

During 2020, the first year of the COVID pandemic, the David Lynch Foundation decided to do their annual benefit online and Mathes produced and arranged the tracks for five music videos featuring Elvis Costello, Jim James, Kesha, Larkin Poe, Sting, Graham Nash, the Brooklyn Youth Chorus and Angélique Kidjo, used in the David Lynch Foundation's Meditate America campaign. In early 2022, Sting enlisted Mathes to co-arrange and [Music director|musically direct]] a reggae record of Frank Sinatra songs Sting was producing for the artist Shaggy called Com Fly Wid Me.

As a composer, Mathes was nominated for a Best Original Score Emmy twice; for the HBO movie Thurgood, starring Lawrence Fishburne, and the HBO documentary Herblock. Grammy-winning conductor Leonard Slatkin commissioned Mathes to write a score for The Los Angeles Philharmonic based on George Gershwin themes. Mathes’s piece “Gershwiniana” was performed by Slatkin many times since its premiere. Mathes’s A Standing Ground: Concertino for Orchestra was premiered by The Nashville Symphony and Slatkin in 2009. In 2010, Mahler expert Gilbert Kaplan, who owns the original manuscript of Mahler’s 2nd Symphony, commissioned Mathes to make a reduction with Kaplan of the symphony for smaller forces, published by Universal Music.

Mathes’ songs have been recorded by Bonnie Raitt, Aaron Neville, Vanessa Williams, Faith Hill, Wynonna Judd, and Rascall Flatts, and he co-wrote several songs with Sting for his album The Last Ship.

Mathes has also released his own albums, including Evening Train (a cult favorite among artists such as Phil Ramone, Jimmy Webb and Warren Zevon ), William the Angel (a Christmas album), Orchestral Songs, Rob Mathes: Beyond the Music (a live broadcast and accompanying sound track), Everywhere, Flesh & Spirit and Wheelbarrow.

Perhaps best known among his performances are yearly Christmas concerts, which have spawned two PBS television specials; Christmas Is Coming: Rob Mathes and Friends (featuring Michael McDonald, David Sanborn, Ossie Davis, and Vanessa Williams) and I Want To Hear The Bells, a documentary of his first Christmas concert in 1993. Mathes celebrated 25 years of performing his annual holiday concerts in 2018 with special guests Sting, Vanessa Williams and David Sanborn joining him on stage for a few holiday-themed songs.

Mathes’s work with the Kennedy Center Honors led to him serving as musical director of the 2008 pre-inaugural celebration for Barack Obama. The event, entitled We Are One and held at the Lincoln Memorial featured performances by Stevie Wonder, Pete Seeger, Mary J. Blige, John Mellencamp, Bono, Jennifer Nettles, Bruce Springsteen, Garth Brooks, James Taylor, Shakira, Sheryl Crow, Beyoncé, Mariah Carey, Josh Groban, Heather Headley, Jon Bon Jovi, Caleb Green, Renée Fleming, John Legend, Herbie Hancock, will.i.am, and Usher.

Mathes musically directed the Songwriters Hall of Fame Awards for over two decades In addition to his 2012 win, Mathes was nominated in 2006 for Outstanding Music Direction (Kennedy Center Honors, CBS), in 2009 for Outstanding Music Direction (Kennedy Center Honors, CBS), in 2010 for Outstanding Music Direction (Kennedy Center Honors, CBS), in 2011 for Outstanding Music Composition For A Miniseries, Movie Or A Special (Original Dramatic Score, Thurgood, HBO), in 2011 for Outstanding Music Direction (Kennedy Center Honors, CBS), in 2013 for Outstanding Music Direction (Kennedy Center Honors, CBS), in 2014 for Outstanding Music Composition For A Miniseries, Movie Or A Special (Original Dramatic Score, Herblock: The Black & The White, HBO), and in 2015 for Outstanding Music Direction (Kennedy Center Honors, CBS).

Mathes was nominated for both a Tony Award (Best Orchestration, 2015) and a Drama Desk Award (Outstanding Orchestrations, 2015) for his work on the Broadway production of Sting's musical The Last Ship.

Mathes wrote the title track, the song "Good News," on Kathy Mattea's album Good News which won a Grammy in 1993 in the category Best Southern, Country or Bluegrass Gospel Album. Mathes did extensive arranging work on Vanessa Williams's album Star Bright, which was nominated for a Grammy in 1997 in the category Best Pop/Contemporary Gospel Album and featured the title cut "Star Bright," which Mathes wrote. Mathes produced and contributed as musical director, arranger, conductor, acoustic guitarist, electric guitarist, keyboardist and pianist on Bettye LaVette's album Interpretations: The British Rock Songbook, which was nominated for a Grammy in 2011 in the category Best Contemporary Blues Album. In 2022, Mathes co-arranged and musically directed the Sting-produced record of Frank Sinatra songs by the artist Shaggy called Com Fly Wid Me. The album was nominated for a Grammy in the category Best Reggae Album.


 * List of music arrangers


 * Official website

I have been working with Rob Mathes, who pays me directly for this service, to bring his Wikipedia article fully up to date with more complete information, improved accuracy and improved citations. Here I am submitting the entire rewrite again for approval, with alterations to replace an unintentional close paraphrase to a New York Times article under the LIVE PRODUCTIONS section. Please refer to the discussion above for a more complete disclosure regarding submitting this rewrite in its entirety.
 * Reason for the change (see below for specific text to be added or removed):

COLORGRAYdesign (talk) 23:02, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I took the text and overwrote the article, and then clicked show changes to see what you wanted changed. I'm concerned with the sourcing. Discogs and IMDB are user generated, and are therefore considered unreliable sources. I don't agree, since incorrect information can be easily corrected, but that's community consensus. I'm not comfortable adding anything that's not properly sourced.  Allmusic seems better but I can't tell if it's also user generated. Also, I didn't see a source for his revised birthday.  We might be able to change it, but without a source it would have to be marked citation needed.  STEM info  (talk) 17:19, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm willing to remove the couple of sections that use the DISCOGS and IMDB citations if that will move this forward (it is a shame, since those reference some pretty majors works by Rob). With regard to ALLMUSIC, it is so widely used on many other famous artist Wikipedia articles that it would seem arbitrary to reject it as a citation for Rob's article and would make it necessary to dispense with a great deal of his work. That would cause the article to be disappointingly incomplete and in fact, less complete that the current version, which has for years made pretty extensive use of ALLMUSIC as a citation. Regarding Rob's birthday, it has been incorrect in his Wikipedia article for years, but unfortunately we have not been able to locate a published source. It seems to me there are many artist articles on Wikipedia where there is no citation for the birthday (see Phil Collins, Joni Mitchell) so why apply that rigor disproportionately? However, if need be it would be preferable to have the rewrite used with a "citation needed" next to his birthday. Before I proceed, can you give any assurance that the article will pass muster if I remove the sections that use the DISCOGS and IMDB citations? SPINTENDO had seemed to indicate that their declination of my previous submission was only due to close paraphrase issues, which have now been repaired. COLORGRAYdesign (talk) 21:27, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Just to be clear, the process of my review ended the moment I saw that there was closely-paraphrased text, and I proceeded no further in evaluating the proposal. As STEMinfo rightly notes, IMDB and Discogs are problematic in that they offer user-generated content. The template may be used to cite sources from that website according to certain parameters set by WP:RSMUSIC and the assorted discussions regarding AllMusic from 2015, 2017, and 2021 listed there. Regards,  Spintendo  02:10, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

full rewrite for consideration, adjusted further

 * Specific text to be added or removed:

Rob Mathes (born November 21, 1963) is an arranger, composer, producer and musical director. A singer-songwriter and multi-instrumentalist artist in his own right, Mathes has also released several albums of solo work.

Mathes was born in Boston, Massachusetts to classical musicians and music instructors Joan and George Mathes. The family moved to Greenwich, Connecticut, where his parents taught music with the local schools and privately. Mathes showed interest and skill in music at a very early age. In his youth, Mathes attended Berklee College of Music where he studied under John Mehegan, a jazz pianist who was a Juilliard faculty member at that time, and later he left Berklee College of Music to study orchestration and counterpoint, privately, under Myron Fink.

By high school, Mathes was already working regularly as a professional writer and performer in the clubs of nearby New York City. He toured with Chuck Mangione in his early 20s, playing guitar and keyboards. Mathes then began to focus on writing and arranging in Nashville, and soon was writing songs for Bonnie Raitt, Kathy Mattea, Aaron Neville, Wynonna Judd, Faith Hill, Oleta Adams, Alabama, and Randy Travis.

Mathes works frequently as a record producer in a wide range of genres. He produced three Sting albums: Symphonicities, The Best of 25 Years, and The Last Ship. Mathes has also produced many other artists including Rod Stewart, Carly Simon, Beth Hart, Vanessa Williams, Bettye LaVette, Michael Cavanaugh, Melissa Errico, and bands Panic! at The Disco and The Young Veins.

Mathes has written orchestrations for a number of artists all over the stylistic spectrum, including Elton John, Sting, Tony Bennett, Lou Reed, Mavis Staples, Jay Z, Lenny Kravitz, Mary J. Blige, Beck, Aretha Franklin, Mariah Carey, Harry Connick Jr., Fall Out Boy, Renée Fleming, Bryn Terfel, Deborah Voigt, Yo-Yo Ma and Bruce Springsteen.

Mathes arranged and musically directed Sting's 2010 world tour with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra. Mathes wrote and conducted the orchestral arrangements for three Bruce Springsteen records, including the critically acclaimed recording and film Western Stars, and served as musical director for Springsteen's MusicCares Grammy Person of The Year tribute in 2013 featuring Neil Young, Jackson Browne, Tom Morello, and Ben Harper.

Mathes arranged Renée Fleming's 2014 Super Bowl performance of The “Star-Spangled Banner”, recorded by the New Jersey Symphony and published by Hal Leonard. Mathes’s arrangement of Led Zeppelin’s “Stairway to Heaven” for the band Heart (Ann and Nancy Wilson), performed at the Kennedy Center Honors, led to him being asked by Robert Plant and Jimmy Page to testify at the trial over the song’s publishing rights, which they won.

Mathes arranged music for the Three Tenors-Live in Paris concert and was the arranger and guitarist for almost a decade of Pavarotti and Friends charity concerts held annually in Modena, Italy, Luciano Pavarotti’s hometown. Many of these collaborations arose from Mathes’s longtime relationship with the legendary producer Phil Ramone (Billy Joel, Paul Simon, Frank Sinatra, among many others). Mathes arranged a duet of the Van Morrison classic “Crazy Love” for Van and Ray Charles on Charles’s Grammy-winning Genius Loves Company (Album of The Year) and was the arranger and pianist on the late George Michael’s Songs from the Last Century album, both produced by Ramone.

Mathes orchestrated and conducted the song scores for the films In The Heights, The Greatest Showman starring Hugh Jackman , and Tick, Tick... Boom!, directed by Lin-Manuel Miranda. He wrote all the arrangements for Panic! at The Disco’s #1 record, Pray For The Wicked and 2022’s Viva Las Vengeance. Mathes orchestrated the band Weezer’s record OK Human and conducted the band’s streamed concert with the Los Angeles Philharmonic at the Walt Disney Concert Hall.

During 2020, the first year of the COVID pandemic, the David Lynch Foundation decided to do their annual benefit online and Mathes produced and arranged the tracks for five music videos featuring Elvis Costello, Jim James, Kesha, Larkin Poe, Sting, Graham Nash, the Brooklyn Youth Chorus and Angélique Kidjo, used in the David Lynch Foundation's Meditate America campaign. In early 2022, Sting enlisted Mathes to co-arrange and [Music director|musically direct]] a reggae record of Frank Sinatra songs Sting was producing for the artist Shaggy called Com Fly Wid Me.

As a composer, Mathes was nominated for a Best Original Score Emmy twice; for the HBO movie Thurgood, starring Lawrence Fishburne, and the HBO documentary Herblock. Grammy-winning conductor Leonard Slatkin commissioned Mathes to write a score for The Los Angeles Philharmonic based on George Gershwin themes. Mathes’s piece “Gershwiniana” was performed by Slatkin many times since its premiere. Mathes’s A Standing Ground: Concertino for Orchestra was premiered by The Nashville Symphony and Slatkin in 2009. In 2010, Mahler expert Gilbert Kaplan, who owns the original manuscript of Mahler’s 2nd Symphony, commissioned Mathes to make a reduction with Kaplan of the symphony for smaller forces, published by Universal Music.

Mathes’ songs have been recorded by Bonnie Raitt, Aaron Neville, Vanessa Williams, Faith Hill, Wynonna Judd, and Rascall Flatts, and he co-wrote several songs with Sting for his album The Last Ship.

Mathes has also released his own albums, including Evening Train (a cult favorite among artists such as Phil Ramone, Jimmy Webb and Warren Zevon ), William the Angel (a Christmas album), Orchestral Songs, Rob Mathes: Beyond the Music (a live broadcast and accompanying sound track), Everywhere, Flesh & Spirit and Wheelbarrow.

Perhaps best known among his performances are yearly Christmas concerts, which have spawned two PBS television specials; Christmas Is Coming: Rob Mathes and Friends (featuring Michael McDonald, David Sanborn, Ossie Davis, and Vanessa Williams) and I Want To Hear The Bells, a documentary of his first Christmas concert in 1993. Mathes celebrated 25 years of performing his annual holiday concerts in 2018 with special guests Sting, Vanessa Williams and David Sanborn joining him on stage for a few holiday-themed songs.

Mathes’s work with the Kennedy Center Honors led to him serving as musical director of the 2008 pre-inaugural celebration for Barack Obama. The event, entitled We Are One and held at the Lincoln Memorial featured performances by Stevie Wonder, Pete Seeger, Mary J. Blige, John Mellencamp, Bono, Jennifer Nettles, Bruce Springsteen, Garth Brooks, James Taylor, Shakira, Sheryl Crow, Beyoncé, Mariah Carey, Josh Groban, Heather Headley, Jon Bon Jovi, Caleb Green, Renée Fleming, John Legend, Herbie Hancock, will.i.am, and Usher.

Mathes musically directed the Songwriters Hall of Fame Awards for over two decades In addition to his 2012 win, Mathes was nominated in 2006 for Outstanding Music Direction (Kennedy Center Honors, CBS), in 2009 for Outstanding Music Direction (Kennedy Center Honors, CBS), in 2010 for Outstanding Music Direction (Kennedy Center Honors, CBS), in 2011 for Outstanding Music Composition For A Miniseries, Movie Or A Special (Original Dramatic Score, Thurgood, HBO), in 2011 for Outstanding Music Direction (Kennedy Center Honors, CBS), in 2013 for Outstanding Music Direction (Kennedy Center Honors, CBS), in 2014 for Outstanding Music Composition For A Miniseries, Movie Or A Special (Original Dramatic Score, Herblock: The Black & The White, HBO), and in 2015 for Outstanding Music Direction (Kennedy Center Honors, CBS).

Mathes was nominated for both a Tony Award (Best Orchestration, 2015) and a Drama Desk Award (Outstanding Orchestrations, 2015) for his work on the Broadway production of Sting's musical The Last Ship.

Mathes wrote the title track, the song "Good News," on Kathy Mattea's album Good News which won a Grammy in 1993 in the category Best Southern, Country or Bluegrass Gospel Album. Mathes did extensive arranging work on Vanessa Williams's album Star Bright, which was nominated for a Grammy in 1997 in the category Best Pop/Contemporary Gospel Album and featured the title cut "Star Bright," which Mathes wrote. Mathes produced and contributed as musical director, arranger, conductor, acoustic guitarist, electric guitarist, keyboardist and pianist on Bettye LaVette's album Interpretations: The British Rock Songbook, which was nominated for a Grammy in 2011 in the category Best Contemporary Blues Album. In 2022, Mathes co-arranged and musically directed the Sting-produced record of Frank Sinatra songs by the artist Shaggy called Com Fly Wid Me. The album was nominated for a Grammy in the category Best Reggae Album.

I have been working with Rob Mathes, who pays me directly for this service, to bring his Wikipedia article fully up to date with more complete information, improved accuracy and improved citations. Here I am submitting the entire rewrite again for approval, with alterations from previous full submissions to remove and remplace references using DISCOGS and IMDB. Please note that we are still unable to find published public documentation of Rob's birth date, which is incorrect in the current live article. We are fine with a "citation needed" appearing there or omitting his birthday entirely.
 * Reason for the change (see below for specific text to be added or removed):

COLORGRAYdesign (talk) 16:16, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
 * COLORGRAYdesign - this seems fine to me, however, given how significant this rewrite is I'd prefer to wait a few days in case a regular at this article sees something that I'm missing. If no one else has taken any action on this edit request by October 30, please leave a message on my Talk page and I'll return to implement it. Chetsford (talk) 18:10, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Reply 29-OCT-2023
There are some issues that remain with this new revised text. I'm seeing examples of the type of grand, sweeping, promotional-type wording which we need to avoid Mathes works frequently as a record producer in a wide range of genres and Mathes has written orchestrations for a number of artists all over the stylistic spectrum Information about the subject's childhood Mathes showed interest and skill in music at a very early age as well as two or three other passages of text from the proposal are referenced to the Berklee College of Music, which are both (there are 2 Berklee sources in the current edit request) interviews with the subject. The only circumstances where Wikipedia can accept the subject themselves as a source are the following: Thus, I'm not prepared to accept any information that is sourced by the two Berklee sources which do not meet those 5 requirements. My advice to the COI editor would be to go over their proposal and remove any claims referenced by Berklee (or the subject's own website) which fail those areas (or locate replacement references).
 * 1) When it is not unduly self-serving;
 * 2) It does not involve claims about third parties;
 * 3) It does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject;
 * 4) There is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity;
 * 5) The article is not based primarily on such sources.

There are also several instances where WP:NAMEDROP occurs (such as the subjects work as musical director of the inaugural event). We only need to know he was musical director of the inaugural event. We don't need a listing of every performer at that event. I think we can do without a listing of the entire nominations from the Emmys (or perhaps, if the cumulative accolades from all the awards/noms bestowers are extensive, they would do better in a separate list article). Some additional areas where clarification needs to be provided or text needs to be deleted: There also remains several passages of text which are unreferenced, too numerous for me to repeat here on the talk page. The COI editor should have no difficulty locating them themselves. Needless to say, those passages need to be referenced if they're going to be included in the article.
 * 1) "Mathes wrote and conducted the orchestral arrangements in three Bruce Springsteen albums" — but the albums aren't listed
 * 2) By high school, Mathes was already working regularly as a professional writer and performer in the clubs of nearby New York City. — It's not clear what is meant by "already" and "regularly" but it sounds promotional. It also might lead readers to wonder how someone who works "regularly" (say, 9-5) also had time for high school, which is normally held during those same hours.
 * 3) "Mathes then began to focus on writing and arranging in Nashville — It's not clear how he could begin to "focus on writing" at this point when, just two sentences earlier (while he was still in high school) he was already "working regularly as a professional writer." Is the text saying that he was writing in New York City, and then he began writing in Nashville? If that's the case, then what we're really saying here is that he moved from one city to another. The paragraph should just say that.
 * 4) " ...led him to being asked to testify at the trial over the songs publishing rights" — Which trial would this be? It doesn't say.
 * 5) " and conducted the band's (Weezer) streamed concert" — There's no date here.
 * 6) During 2020, the first year of the COVID pandemic, the David Lynch Foundation decided to do their annual benefit online and Mathes produced and arranged the tracks for five music videos featuring Elvis Costello, Jim James Kesha, Larkin Poe, Sting, Graham Nash, the Brooklyn Youth Chorus and Angélique Kidjo, used in the David Lynch Foundation's Meditate America campaign." — This should just say that in 2020 Mathes produced and arranged the tracks for five music videos used in the David Lynch Foundation's Mediate America campaign. The reader doesn't need to know that it was the first year of the Covid pandemic. The reader also shouldn't be given speculation about David Lynch's thought processes ("The David Lynch Foundation decided to do....") It's better just to say that the foundation moved the benefit online, and leave the term "decided" — which speaks to an organization's mindset — out of it.
 * 7) Grammy-winning conductor Leonard Slatkin commissioned Mathes to write a score for The Los Angeles Philharmonic based on George Gershwin themes. Mathes’s piece “Gershwiniana” was performed by Slatkin many times since its premiere. — Isn't that what Slatkin commissioned the piece for, so that it could be performed many times? He certainly didn't commission it for one single performance only. This is not out of the ordinary.
 * 8) Mathes’ songs have been recorded by Bonnie Raitt, Aaron Neville, Vanessa Williams Faith Hill, Wynonna Judd and Rascall Flatts, and he co-wrote several songs with Sting for his album "The Last Ship" — These are referred to as "Mathes' songs." So are these songs with his lyrics or his arrangements or his orchestrations? A better way of saying this would be "Mathes' lyrics have appeared in .." etc. Additionally, if we're going to use AllMusic as the source, then the song/track/composition's id parameter needs to be activated within the  template.
 * 9) Mathes has also released his own albums including Evening Train (a cult favorite among artists such as Phil Ramone, Jimmy Webb and Warren Zevon — A different source needs to be provided, as the subject's own website cannot be used when third parties are mentioned. The claim is also referenced by AllMusic, but the correct template needs to be used, taking care to ensure each album's id parameters are activated within their templates.
 * 10) Perhaps best known among his performances are yearly Christmas concerts, which have spawned two PBS television specials — which are also not Wikilinked. Additionally, the claim for one of those Christmas specials is referenced by Amazon. I'll accept that as a reference here, however, the COI editor should add a separate template to the citation (or utilize the citation's ASIN parameter).
 * 11) Mathes musically directed an ensemble of singers and played piano on night four, with Elvis singing a bunch of songs from his musical — How many is "a bunch of songs" exactly, more than a bushel? Needless to say, Wikipedia's articles should not use such colloquial terms for quantity. Also, where it says "with Elvis singing a bunch of songs" no doubt this passage of text is referring to Costello and not another Elvis who's been dead for many years. Wikipedia doesn't refer to people using their first names.
 * 12) Mathes musically directed the Songwriters Hall of Fame Awards for over two decades and has musically directed many evenings for the David Lynch Foundation including a 2015 concert in LA featuring Moby, The Flaming Lips, Lykke Li and Angelo Badalamenti released on the album Music of David Lynch, and a concert at Carnegie Hall featuring Katy Perry Angelique Kidjo, Jim James and Sting —It's not clear what is being said here. This sentence starts talking about the Songwriters Hall of Fame, but then mentions the David Lynch Foundation and then concludes by mentioning Carnegie Hall. Is this sentence saying that the Songwriters Hall of Fame was held with the David Lynch Foundation at Carnegie Hall? Please clarify, while deleting all the unnecessary WP:NAMEDROPs. Additionally, a different source needs to be provided, as YouTube cannot be used for this claim.
 * 13) Gilbert Kaplan, who owns the original manuscript of Mahler’s 2nd Symphony, commissioned Mathes to make a reduction with Kaplan of the symphony for smaller forces, published by Universal Music — It's not clear what is meant by the terms "reduction" and "smaller forces". Please be aware that readers of the article may be completely unaware of musical terms and conventions, and words like these should either be Wikilinked or replaced with non-musical terminology.
 * 14) Mathes arranged music for the Three Tenors-Live in Paris concert and was the arranger and guitarist for almost a decade of Pavarotti and Friends charity concerts held annually in Modena, Italy, Luciano Pavarotti’s hometown. — The subject's own website cannot be used as a source here because the claims involve third parties.
 * 15) including the critically acclaimed recording and film Western Stars, and served as musical director for Springsteen's MusicCares Grammy Person of The Year tribute in 2013 featuring Neil Young, Jackson Browne, Tom Morello, and Ben Harper — These claims are referenced by the Berklee source (which is information coming directly from the subject). Because these claims involve third parties, we cannot use that source.

I don't think the question was settled on whether AllMusic is the appropriate source for these other sections that all have long blocks of name dropping (and where particular songs are not mentioned, which are used with the template). I think the WP:WEIGHT of them, given the nature of AllMusic, is something to be avoided. But I would like to reiterate that whenever the all music template is used to act as a reference for a claim, the ID number must be included in the template. That means the template can be used for claims involving particular songs, compositions, albums, etc. But nothing else.

So my apologies to Chetsford, but I think this article still has a ways to go. I'm going to set the template to y to allow the COI editor to make the necessary clarifications and changes to their request. They should feel free to resubmit below in a new proposal at their earliest convenience. Regards, Spintendo  00:55, 29 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Working on it. And just want to extend sincere thanks to Spintendo for providing the sort of analysis we really needed to be able to proceed with this. Spintendo's examples, clarifications and recommendations are extremely helpful and they clearly spent a good deal of time and effort, so many thanks! COLORGRAYdesign (talk) 14:57, 31 October 2023 (UTC)