Talk:Robert Adams (spiritual teacher)

Robert Spiegel
New information was discovered in April 2024 that changes the entire premise of this article. The premise of the article is that "Robert Adams" was a real person who existed from 1928-1997. This is false. Robert Adams was an imaginary identity created by Dr. J. Robert Spiegel around 1986. There is no birth record for anyone born in the USA on Jan. 21, 1928, named Robert Adams. There is a birth record for Robert Spiegel born in the Bronx NYC on Jan. 21, 1932. Robert Adams spoke with a Bronx accent. Robert Adams created The Infinity Institute as the sole source of his teachings.

The new information that came to light in April 2024 gave internet sleuths a long sought-after trail of real names connected to Robert Adams. WRAL and CityViewNC.com published a story of a missing child, Blake Deven whose mother, Avantae Deven, made an unusual call to 911.

According to the CityViewNC.com story: "IRS tax records show her living in Enka, an unincorporated community there, while she was the registered agent for a nonprofit called the Infinity Institute from 2011 to 2016. The Infinity Institute was established in Nevada by Robert Adams, a teacher of a philosophy of Hinduism called Advaita Vedanta, in 1996, according to the nonprofit’s website and Nevada state records."

The article cites Avantae Deven as the sole agent of the Infinity Institute. Her mother Leonie Maxwell entered the hospital for head injury treatment after a fall. Leonie Maxwell also used the name Nicole Adams. Since Robert Adams left his wife and daughter as sole agents for his Infinity Institute, this meant that Avantae Deven and Leonie Maxwell must be his wife and daughter! Further internet searches discovered that Leonie Maxwell married Robert Spiegel in 1954 in the Bronx and they had two daughters, Michelle and Sharon (later called Avantae and Melanie). Soon searchers found pictures of Robert Spiegel looking exactly as one might expect a young Robert Adams. FaceShape Ai identified them with 100% certainty as the same person!

Now let's compare Robert Adams with Robert Spiegel.

The fictional character Robert Adams first flew to India in 1946 (or 1947, the story often changed) and spent three and a half years as a close follower of Ramana Maharshi until Ramana died in 1950. Robert claims to have stayed in Arthur Osborne's house in India for 3 years (1947-1950)(These dates too often changed). Arthur Osborne's daughter, Katya, who is still alive categorically says he did not stay at their house at any time, and she was there.Then came the theory he was there without her knowing it. She has stated it was a small one bathroom house and not even a mouse could have stayed there without her knowing it.

No one other than Robert himself has verified this Ramana Ashram visit and Ramana Ashram itself says this is unreliable information.* The Mountain Path April 2020 p.7: "There is the curious case of a Robert Adams, an American guru who asserted that he was at Sri Ramanasramam between 1947-8 and 1952 (the dates vary in his conversations) and that he moved closely with Bhagavan. Until such time as there appears objective, verifiable evidence to substantiate this claim, we cannot but come to the conclusion that his account is unreliable."

Robert Adams then traveled around India for 17 years on a spiritual quest visiting many spiritual gurus almost all of whom had popular books available in USA new age bookstores by 1986 such as Nisargadata, AnandaMayi Ma, Neem Karoli Baba, Yogananda, Swami Muktananda Paramhamsa, and Swami Ramdas.

Robert Spiegel on the other hand, was 14 years old in 1946 and in high school. At age 16 he worked for the Brazilian Trade Embassy until age 21 while in the army reserves (1948-1951) then joined the 991st Bronx Brigade like his older brother Irving, and served in combat in North Korea and was awarded the Korean Bronze Service medal. He married Leonie Maxwell in 1954, had a daughter in 1957, another in 1960, and supported the family by traveling across the USA teaching auto-hypnosis, psychology, stop-smoking courses, and stress reduction. Robert Spiegel was an avid reader of new age teachings such as Nisargadata, AnandaMayi Ma, etc.

No one has ever met Robert Adams or claimed to have met Robert Adams before 1986 except Robert Spiegel's two daughters and Robert Spiegel's wife. Nor has any trace of Robert Adams ever been produced before 1986. We do have a full history for Robert Spiegel including employment records, military records, wedding certificate, newspaper ads and announcements with pictures. Ai shows with a claimed 100% certainty that pictures of Robert Spiegel are Robert Adams.

Given that Robert Adams' history is fiction and given that there are some Robert Adams message boards, Facebook pages, and Pinterest quote sites that have not discovered this as a fiction, the question arises: where should this information be placed? Perhaps it could be included in a separate ‘controversies’ section? With all the documents, proof, marriage certificate, birth records, military records, and actual photographs that demonstrate Robert Adams is Robert Spiegel and not one shred of evidence Robert Adams existed before 1986, those reporting Robert Adams as an historical accuracy are promoting unsupported conjectural theories. They do not have actual records. Where does Wikipedia deem it appropriate? In my view, acknowledging these facts is essential. While "Robert Adams" supporters attempt to conceal the Robert Spiegel identity, the internet contains a wealth of records such as the website Websleuths, the Facebook page ‘Advaita Teacher Robert Adams was really Robert Spiegel,’ and numerous other websites that have delved into this story. Now that it has become more common knowledge that Robert Adams was a fictional character, many of his youtube and internet followers say this doesn't matter. His teaching speaks for itself. The teaching is either true or not true, it doesn't matter if a teaching instrument called "Robert Adams" was created.

This is by no means the first time such a thing has happened. Carlos Castaneda, Lobsang Rampa and (Cyril Henry Hoskin) are all likely fictional. Grey Owl (Archibald Bellaney) was a bestselling author and lecturer in the 1930s, celebrated as a Native American conservationist. After his death, it was revealed that he was actually an Englishman.

Phil Hine had this to say about Lobsang Rampa which could also be said in some sense about Robert Adams:

"It would be easy to judge Cyril Hoskin/Lobsang Rampa as a ‘hoaxer’ however I feel this is too simplistic. For one thing, he appears to have genuinely believed himself to be a Tibetan Lama inhabiting an Englishman’s body. Moreover, his books were, and remain, popular, for reasons that are more complex than mere credulity on the part of a supposedly uneducated and uncritical audience. Rampa’s work played a key role in the formation of both the New Age movement and contemporary occultism. His place in history in the Western imagination of Tibet has already been assured. He also deserves more attention in his attempts to make the world of the occult explainable in everyday terms."

By providing factual information here on Wikipedia it also gives an opportunity for others with valid citation to add to our collective wealth of information. The whole point of Wikipedia! The links I have provided are accurate and valid citations so all might evaluate it fairly. Rather than a wholesale take down, let others provide factual counter arguments if they have them. Everyone would like to see that, especially me. Now that Ramana Ashram has taken down Robert Adams picture and publicly stated any claim that he was at their ashram or met Bhagavan Ramana should be regarded as "unreliable" it is more important than ever that anyone who can substantiate his claims step forward rather than attempting to remove factual discoveries that are becoming broadly known on the internet.

In this stub, it doesn’t seem appropriate to display the personal records. They are available and can be linked to if requested. There’s an ancient saying: ‘The world wants to be deceived, so let it be deceived.’ Robert Adams, a fictional character created by Robert Spiegel, left us with a message of love, happiness, and selfless service. Some argue that revealing the truth about his life would blunt that message and therefore should be kept secret. There are many people dedicated to keeping the very name of Robert Spiegel out of earshot lest someone google it. However, I believe we can trust everyone’s innate wisdom. The truth can bear scrutiny! I believe that everyone can handle the truth no matter how it appears, and ultimately benefit from it. I encourage those who feel compelled to delete references to Robert's real name and history to reconsider. The truth is more resilient than we might think! "It may not always look like much, but there is no sturdier ship than truth." Popularising the somewhat obscure teachings of Advaita Vedanta should be regarded as no small feat and those who have done it should be acknowledged. Robert Spiegel's efforts should not be marginalized or treated as if he never existed in favor of his fictional character as if the real person did not matter. Welcome650 (talk) 14:06, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Ramana Maharshi
Regarding the Mark Whitwell reference citing p.84 of his book "Yoga of the Heart," the quote in no way verifies Adams being at Ramana Ashram. The exact quote is:

""When the Western sage Robert Adams said to me, “There is a secret in the Universe! There are no problems!” I immediately felt and knew what he meant. It was an experience of tacit certitude. Robert was speaking to me from his own personal experience. He had lived with Ramana Maharshi for four years. Robert had no interest in being a special teacher or creating a social dynamic of special and ordinary. In his clarity he simply knew that his life was no different from anybody else's. As an equal, a peer, he was communicating his experiences to his friends. Therefore it was directly received in ordinary and tangible ways without the imposition of social allusion or philosophies of seeking.""

Mark Whitwell was born May 17, 1949 and was not in India as a child, therefore is unable to verify Robert Adams claim of being there 1946-1950, thus it is an improper citation.

Also, Ramana Ashram has said they don't believe Robert Adams was ever there and in the April-June 2020 issue said on p.7 of The Mountain Path:

""There is the curious case of a Robert Adams, an American guru who asserted that he was at Sri Ramanasramam between 1947-8 and 1952 (the dates vary in his conversations) and that he moved closely with Bhagavan. Until such time as there appears objective, verifiable evidence to substantiate this claim, we cannot but come to the conclusion that his account is unreliable.""

http://www.sriramana.org/ramanafiles/mountainpath/2020%20II%20April.pdf Thus Ramana Ashram believes Robert Adams claim of being there is "unreliable."

In "The Mountain Path," July-Sept. 2020 issue longtime ashram member Kitty Osborne made the following statement:

""As for Robert Adams, it seems to me that there are so many inconsistencies and downright impossibilities in his stories, such a total lack of verifiable fact or any credible witness, that I can only conclude that he never met Bhagavan at all.""

She also says in the same article: ""Bhagavan never left the ashram by the front gate or even crossed the road from the ashram (where our house is still) after 1928-29 when he stopped doing giripradakṣiṇā, except for two recorded occasions. Once when he went to look at a lake (Samudram) that had unexpectedly filled with water and secondly when he went to see a well in Ramana Nagar that never went dry. Every move he made was noted and recorded, and everyone who was associated with him, would have been noted." and also: "He [Robert Adams] also claimed to have stayed in my family home without my father apparently knowing about it! This is according to one of his statements recorded on a website devoted to his teachings. He certainly could not have stayed in our house while we were there without us knowing, when we were not there the house was locked up and unused.""

This contradicts many many references Robert Adams made to both staying at the Osborne house for years such as this one: ""I had been living in Ramana ashram for about a year and a half. This was the end of 1948. I stayed with Arthur Osborne, in his house. In those days when foreigners came they were put up with Arthur Osborne most of the time without him knowing."" p.2839 Collected Works

In this case it is a matter of whom do we believe? Someone who owned the house and is universally acknowledged to have been there, or someone without single person ever verifying seeing him there or even in India. One possible clue may also be this quote from Robert's foremost disciple Ed Muzika quoting another follower: ""He [Robert Adams] lies incessantly, telling one person one thing and another something else, then denies to both that he said anything.""

Ed's comment: ""From that recipient's own  viewpoint  of  frustration  and  disappointment,  what she said was true; but she saw  only the man, not the source, the Self-embodied Guru.""

It is my opinion that Ramana Ashram should be respected and this article should remove all suggestions that Robert Adams was there until such time as someone comes forward to verify that Robert Adams was ever actually at Ramana Ashram.

Controversies section
None of the claims in this section are well-substantiated, and the sources used were all marked "better source needed." This section should be removed unless more credible sources are found.

On the controversy section, the addition of "there have been examples of those who had undoubtedly met Ramana Maharshi corroborating Adams' Self-realization." seems out of place since the idea of one person corroborating another's self-realization is more for lineage holders and has nothing to do with the question of whether Adams actually visited Ramana Ashram. Perhaps the comment could be put in another section or its own section as there are indeed many Facebook and Youtube gurus who endorse Robert Adams.

Advaita Vedanta
What makes Robert Adams "Advaita Vedanta"? This looks like a rather loose interpretation of what "Advaita Vedanta" is. Simply "Advaita," or "modern Advaita," might be a better term. Ramana Maharshi himself wasn't "Advaita Vedanta" either, but rather tantric Shaivism. Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!   10:48, 12 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Exactly right! Welcome650 (talk) 07:15, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Story Teller?
Regarding the addition of Adams living in a cave thus explaining no one there having seen him, on page 458 of Robert Adams' Collected Works he describes attending the main hall talks everyday for 8 months with this passage:

"I recall a Westerner, I'm trying to think of his name, Henry Wells, from Scotland. He apparently had read a lot of books about Ramana, and this was his first visit. He came into the hall, and I was watching this. Ran over to Ramana and prostrated himself on his stomach, and started going crazy. His feet were shaking, and he was chanting. The devo- tees wanted to pick him up, and Ramana said, "Let him stay." When he came out of it he told Ramana, "At last I have found you. You are my father, my mother, my son, my daugh- ter, my friend." And Ramana just smiled at him. And I said to myself, I was only eighteen years old, I said to myself, "Someone who is this enthusiastic, let's see what happens, if it lasts." The days went by and he kept prostrating himself every day for about a month. Then he finally stopped and he sat down like everybody else. And after about two months he started looking around the room at everybody, and he started complaining, that this wasn't right, that wasn't right. After about four months of being there he donated forty- thousand dollars to the ashram, and I'm just watching all these things going on. After about six months of being there, he started to find fault with the management. At that time Ramanas brother was managing the ashram. He started to whisper to the other disciples, of course the devotees had nothing to do with this, it was the disciples and the seekers. He started spreading rumors. He hardly ever talked to me. I guess I was too young. He was about forty-five years old. When about the seventh month he came over to me one day and he asked me outside the ashram, "Do you think Ramana is really enlightened?" So I just smiled at him, I didn't answer and walked away. He started getting devotees to fight against each other and rebel against the rules of the ashram. On about the eighth month he saw me again and he tells me, "Do you think it is right for Ramana to stand naked like this? Let's buy him some clothes and dress him up, so when Westerners come they won’t be frightened." So I told him what Ramana said: "Remember the reason for why you came." And this went on. A couple of days later I didn't see him in the hall. Second day passed and I didn't see him. The third day passed and I didn't see him. And the fourth day I inquired, "What happened to him?" And the house guest he was living with said, "Oh, Henry packed his suitcase and went back to Scotland," and nobody ever heard from him again." pp.458

On page 2319 Robert Adams states:

"I recall when I was with Ramana Maharshi, I used to stand at the door of the meet- ing at the old hall, when people used to come in to hear him, to see him. I was interested in the people that came in to see him. And because I was a Westerner, the Westerners would stop and talk to me. They were very funny. They change expectations, and ask me, is Ramana going to speak today? What subject is he going to speak on?"

Regarding Ramana speaking English, yes Ramana could speak english and write it also, but according to Kitty Osborne he never spoke it without a translator. If you want a link to that let me know.

Regarding the article from Ed Muzika, it was not from the well known Matthew Brown script but was from the Jan/Feb 1998 Yoga Journal article widely distributed at the time. https://books.google.bg/books?id=JOoDAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA83&dq=yoga%20journal%20the%20mysterious%20sage%20of%20sedona&pg=PA85#v=onepage&q=yoga%20journal%20the%20mysterious%20sage%20of%20sedona&f=false

On the David Godman video, I don't think that should be referenced and certainly not referenced as a supporting source since David Godman acknowledged it as false information, took it down, and promised to correct the false information in it to anyone that asks. See Michael James article:

' [Robert Adams said...] ‘I had been living in Ramana ashram for about a year and a half. This was the end of 1948. I stayed with Arthur Osborne, in his house. In those days when foreigners came they were put up with Arthur Osborne most of the time without him knowing. And on one particular evening about 4 o clock Sri Ramana walked into the cottage and he brought me a mango.’

He made a similar claim a week later, on 9th August 1992, when he said, as recorded on page 2868: ‘In 1948, I was at Arthur Osbornes home near Ramana ashram. And Ramana used to walk in there every once in a while. He came in one day, sat down and he started to talk about not reacting to things.’

To set the record straight, despite what he claimed, Robert Adams never stayed in the Osborne’s house or compound, and Bhagavan never visited there. As Katya Douglas (formerly Kitty Osborne) wrote to me today, ‘Our house in Tiruvannamalai was...and is...tiny and NO ONE could stay in it without us knowing. What a ridiculous idea. Bhagavan NEVER came to our house, that is pure fantasy, a polite way of saying it is a lie!’

I do not know why Robert made up such stories, but such patently false claims call into question all his claims about having met Bhagavan and having lived there so long in those days.

I came to know about this claim that Robert stayed in the Osborne’s house..."' Michael James unquote https://happinessofbeing.blogspot.com/2019/11/ego-seems-to-exist-only-when-we-look.html Welcome650 (talk) 10:14, 11 August 2020 (UTC)Welcome650 (talk) 09:56, 11 August 2020 (UTC)


 * The Robert Adams page reads as if all his claims are true when as we can see in the Story Teller section, they are controversial at best. I like Robert Adams but I think this page falls short of the Wikipedia normal standard. Pgc512 (talk) 14:23, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

..

Reply to Pgc512: — Preceding unsigned comment added by Welcome650 (talk • contribs) 07:45, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The Early life section is fantasy.
 * The Awakening section is stuff he made up.
 * The Journey to the Guru section has long since been disproven. (Joel Goldsmith never gave a talk in NYC until 1953). The idea he visited Yogananda in San Diego cannot be verified by anyone.
 * The Ramana Maharshi section is presented as fact when Ramana Ashram itself has put out an article on fraud gurus saying Robert Adams should not be believed as having been there. [Https://www.gururamana.org/Resources/mountain-path https://www.gururamana.org/Resources/mountain-path] April2020 page 7
 * The Four Principles of Self-Realization section saying he talked to Buddha in his mind should not be presented as factual material. "All of a sudden hundreds of bodhisattvas and mahasattvas came out of the forest and sat down in a semi-circle around Adams as the Buddha." Really?
 * "Adams as the Buddha, gave the bodhisattvas and mahasattvas four principles,..." Oh great to hear in his own mind he thought himself Divine, that proves it then ... Yet anytime this material is altered I get threatened with a ban? Welcome650 (talk) 07:42, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
 * "Adams as the Buddha, gave the bodhisattvas and mahasattvas four principles,..." Oh great to hear in his own mind he thought himself Divine, that proves it then ... Yet anytime this material is altered I get threatened with a ban? Welcome650 (talk) 07:42, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Thetruth1040: This is a biographical page of Robert Adams (Spiegel). Newspaper articles clearly state that: 1. His daughter was appointed to run his Infinity Institute. 2. That his daughter's mother was in the hospital, (Robert's wife). 3. That her name was Leonie Maxwell. 4. Records show Leonie Maxwell was married to Robert Spiegel. 5. A newspapter picture was put up that is obviously Robert Adams using the name Dr. J. Robert Spiegel. 6. So, his daughter's mother was married to Robert Spiegel. There is a newspaper picture of him using the name Robert Spiegel. We have his marriage certificate using the name Robert Spiegel but is that really necessary to be cited after posting a newspaper picture of him using the name Robert Spiegel? To say his name is Robert Spiegel at this point is anything but conjecture. But if you think it is conjecture what citation would you like? No sense undoing each others work.

Questionable Citations
The Early life section has this: Robert Adams was born on January 21, 1928, in Manhattan. citation 4. Citation 4 is a dead link but is supposed to lead to this: https://www.gururamana.org/Resources/mountain-path June 1993. There the supposed citation for his birth is this statement by Robert Adams: "I WAS born on January 21, 1928, in Manhattan, New York." Since there is a question of whether Robert Adams is a fictional identity, having his claimed birth date and birthplace helps us a lot in establishing his family and history.

Doing an exhaustive search of not just Manhattan, but of the entire state of New York, there was no one born named "Robert Adams" Jan 21, 1928 in the state of New York (or anywhere in the USA). This is not proof he wasn't born there on that date, it just makes the citation unusable.

One could argue it makes the entire Wikipedia article almost unusable since without a verified date and place of birth, all other research on his history is now obscured. How can we find the truth out when we don't know when or where he was born? And, there is no record of him at all before 1986 when possibly the Robert Adams identity was created by Robert Spiegel. Welcome650 (talk) 08:38, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Further Questionable Citations
Robert Adams made some claims that turned out to be fantasy, such as his description of staying 3 years at Arthur Osborne’s house near Ramana Ashram. Arthur Osborne’s daughter, Kitty, lived in this house during those years and is acknowledged by the Ramana Ashram as having been there and there are pictures of her there. She says categorically Robert Adams did not stay at her house for 3 years nor did she hear of him and she was living in this house during the years he claimed to be there.

Given Robert Adams was discovered to be involved in fantasy, it suggests that other fantastical claims should include a corroborative citation. His claim to be able to manifest anything he wanted by saying its name 3 times is one such unusual story that to be included should contain at least one other witness or source for citation, or be removed.

Adams said he used the word “God” to instantly receive answers during tests without prior study. This claim challenges conventional learning and memory processes. It’s unlikely that repeating a word would lead to immediate knowledge acquisition. It may have happened but corroborative citation is needed to be included.

His awakening story defies conventional Advaita or Buddhism since he says after the math test experience he “returned to human consciousness but the feeling never left me.”

Traditional Advaita awakening involves a shift of perspective in which one shifts from human consciousness to unity (nondual) consciousness and does not return to human consciousness when an experience is over. Thus this experience too should likely be removed or simply described as a mystical experience and not listed as if it meets the qualification of “awakening.” Perhaps this experience could be kept in the article and instead listed as an example of “delusional awakening.” Welcome650 (talk) 19:14, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Robert Adams Householder
Advaita Vedanta and Buddhism have a long tradition of monks who live in monasteries or on alms as well as householders. Robert Adams claimed to live as a householder family man with a wife and two daughters. Thus his occupational history is relevant. His Infinity Institute website also claims the family has always lived in upscale neighborhoods often in Los Angeles and threw yearly parties at the Beverley Hills Hotel for Robert Adams. Yet nowhere is there any citation or description of how Robert Adams earned a living to support this.

Apparently there is some suggestion that he started a stress reduction clinic somewhere but we don’t know the name or even city and there is no link or citation anywhere. No link or citation to any school or education for Robert or any job.

Also his Infinity Institute website lists his “Benevolence Project” in which he apparently collects money for needy children. But when we do a search for the “Robert Adams Benevolence Project” we can find no evidence of it outside the Infinity Institute’s own website requesting money. Perhaps it is a great selfless service project but what are they actually doing? Where can we find out about their supposed work?

The article includes Robert's unusual tale of taking a transoceanic prop plane to India in 1946 to see Ramana. Today when we think of going to India we think of commercial airlines, but in 1946 they generally went by ocean liner.

The first commercially scheduled transatlantic flights did not start until October 23, 1945, and that was for the wealthy not average people. London Heathrow first opened for transatlantic flights in May 1946. If you look at old movies from the 40s or early 50s, transoceanic trips were always ocean liners. It was only in the mid-1950s that transocean air travel became affordable for everyday people.

Sometimes Robert said his trip to India was in 1947. To travel across the ocean by airplane in those days was highly unusual, would have cost several months of an average family’s pay, often involved letter writing to one’s family, and one would think would be highly memorable. Yet Robert Adams doesn’t seem sure what year this was, it may have been 1946 and may have been 1947. Even 1948 by some of his accounts.

As unusual and fantastical as this is, it may have happened. But to include it in a factual article, corroboration of some type seems reasonable to ask.

. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Welcome650 (talk • contribs) 06:35, 20 June 2024 (UTC)