Talk:Robert Atkins (physician)/Archives/2015

Heart Attack vs Cardiac Arrest & Death
Heart Attack Section

- Changed the section about Atkins' Cardiac Arrest incident from the title "Heart Attack" to "Cardiac Arrest" as he did not have a Heart Attack but rather an episode of Cardiac Arrest. These are two very different problems. You can check it out here on the American Heart Association Website: http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/General/Cardiac-Arrest-versus-Heart-Attack-Infographic_UCM_450698_SubHomePage.jsp where you can clearly see the difference. And yes heart attacks can cause Cardiac Arrest however Atkins and his physician clearly stated the Cardiac Arrest was due to a chronic heart condition.

- Removed all wording of "Heart Attack" within the section and changed to "Cardiac Arrest".

Death Section

- I have no idea what the previous editor was doing but the official death certificate states cause of death as "Blunt impact injury of head with epidural hematoma": http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/mayor-bloombergs-atkins-diet-death-quips and he did NOT die from a heart attack. Moreover no where in the two citations given from the previous editor does it even state the cause of death as a heart attack. The two citations even state his death due to fall, head injury, blood clot in the brain and complications from surgery trying to remove the clot but I guess no one bothered to even look at the references. Therefore I made the corrections of cause of death and added the appropriate citations. I left the original two citations because they agree with the actual cause of death.

2601:2C7:8100:36A4:9519:72CB:4804:7DAE (talk) 22:19, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

- Moved 2nd paragraph about Atkins chronic heart condition from Death section to Cardiac Arrest section as the statements from his physician were given as explanation to Atkins' Cardiac Arrest incident.

2601:2C7:8100:36A4:9519:72CB:4804:7DAE (talk) 22:27, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Untitled
This article was severely biased against the Atkins diet. For one thing, fats are to be eaten in moderation, not "as desired". This is one of the major changes that Dr. Atkins emphasized when he updated his book. Secondly, there is no indication, based on the reports of his doctors, that he died with "arteries clogged with beef drippings". The man was 73 years old and died because he hit his head.

More to the point, I think the pros and cons of the Atkins diet are better off in the Atkins Diet article. Rasi2290 (talk) 17:46, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

- I edited this sentence: Atkins graduated from the University of Michigan in 1951 and received a medical degree from Cornell Medical College in 1955, after which he specialized in cardiology and herbal remedies in place of (or before) pharmaceutical drugs, but not limited to acne, cancer, carpal tunnel syndrome, and depression. That last clause didn't really follow, grammatically. Matheson 12:26, 13 May 2007 (UTC) - Here's some pictures of him a couple months before he died - draw your own conclusions... r Marj 19:47, 17 February 2004 (UTC) - I have a feeling that this article is a little biased -- it looks like the writer supported the Atkins Diet. However, I think that the Atkins diet is very unhealthy; studies have shown that the doctor-recommended normal food-pyramid way of eating (lots of carbs) is the most healthy over a span of thirty years. The studies that have tested Atkins have only gone for three years. - I removed a number of POV comments and irrelevancies from the article. Wikipedia articles are not places for debate (but debate on the discussion pages is okay.) The South Beach diet is relevant to the Atkins diet (Agatston praises Atkins), but not to the biography of Atkins. Points for or against the Atkins diet belong in the article, Atkins Nutritional Approach. However, as to the comment above, the Atkins diet was based on research and clinical practice from long before "thirty years." There is actually very little, if any, scientific evidence regarding the healthiness of the "Food Pyramid," and, indeed, there is some evidence that, as Gary Taubes has put it, it was all a "big fat lie." Google "Taubes fat lie" to find his excellent articles (he's a science writer and was offended by the really bad science behind a great deal of nutritional conventional wisdom). User:Abd 03:35, 21 June 2005 (UTC). - "In the summer of 2005, Atkins was voted America's least beloved deceased star."... voted WHERE?
 * I found this, which seems to be what that statement is refering to. Seems that line in the article is completely taken out of context (he simply received the fewest votes), so I'm removing it. ColdCaffeine 18:58, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Restoration of removed material, partially reverse
An anonymous user replaced material I had removed. I've once again removed the bankruptcy material, it has nothing to do with his biography, belongs in the article on the company (where it already is, I think). I've left the death information for the moment, but it makes the article grossly imbalanced. What is this guy famous for? His death? Hardly! If no balancing information appears, I'll take out the death section again. This time, though, I'll move it to Talk, where what is appropriate from it (all of it?) can be put back into the article. The flap over his death is a pure political campaign conducted by people trying to use it to impugn the diet. It's notable, though, but his life is far more notable.--Abd (talk) 17:05, 3 March 2008 (UTC)about

Clinically Obese?
So the guy weighted 195 lb (88 kg) upon admission to the hospital and 9 days later weighted 260 lb (118 kg). When large part of weight gain is due to exceptional/temporary medical condition, "clinically obese" shouldn't be correct description? As I understand it obesity should be defined in term of proportion of bone/fat/mussle/(others organs) weight because it is essentially about being too "fat".


 * "the apparent irony of a diet guru being obese " oh I love that line. The fact is he died unhealthy and overweight. JayKeaton 02:35, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

This page has reaffirmed my skepticism about the diet regime. All girls on Earth should know about Dr. Robert Atkins's death. Zhixiong 07:45, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Not to mention men. Wythy (talk) 01:27, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

There is quite a bit of information that is easily disputed with first tier sources. I would recommend we put this one into dispute. There is a LOT of bias in this article.

Bias hasn't changed still. It does take away from it though. -(Slapshot24 (talk) 16:46, 31 March 2008 (UTC))


 * lets use logic here: they did not weigh him on the scale during admission. weight upon admission is based on some paperwork filed by relatives. and another thing, how exactly one gaines 65 pounds in two weeks? lets get real here! thats 4.6 pounds a day! from what? Air? (i am sure he was given some needed nutrition, but i am sure as hell they did not feed him 6 pounds of bacon daily for two weeks) Human body is losing water naturally by perspiration, thats about 2 lbs. over eight hours of sleep. Yet he has gain over 4 pounds a day? (thats over 6 pounds a day gain)

Someone care to elaborate on this? link: http://www.livestrong.com/article/402138-how-much-weight-do-you-lose-during-sleep/

50.9.97.53 (talk) 11:42, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

- This opening statement: "Around 2000, Atkins started to developed a heart condition, cardiomyopathy, which was unrelated to his diet.[1]" is speculation. The citation does not provide evidence that this was unrelated to his diet -- just that his widow (clearly a biased reference) claims such. In fact, simply following the LINKS THEMSELVES to cardiomyopathy and furthermore, ischemia, you can read for yourself that these conditions are most frequently caused by things related to diet (i.e., arterial blockage). I'm changing it to the less assertive "which some claim was unrelated" to his diet. Personally, I think 9/10 cardiologists would suggest that his diet had something to do with it, if he practiced his own diet... with Atkins being the 10th.

Jedre 02:46, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

This article (or at least the section on his death) is written in a very sensationalist way. It first suggests that he died from a heart attack, then on reading further we find that's not the case. Turns out it was kidney failure. The article goes on to comment about him being clinically obese, and, surprisingly, that's not the case either. A few sentences later we find that it was a result of his coma. It clearly needs some restructuring.

--170.140.163.59 (talk) 20:55, 18 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I could not find kidney failure mentioned in either of the two articles cited regarding Atkins's death. The only apparent source that mentions a specific cause is the leaked report, which mentions heart attack. The article High-protein diets 'damage kidneys' is linked from one of the Atkins articles. It looks like "kidney failure" was inserted by this July 2005 edit (suspiciously POV) and never removed. Flatscan (talk) 00:31, 20 January 2008 (UTC)


 * When you get a heavy whack on the head, various parts of the body can ultimately stop functioning. Eventually, one of these can kill you. Atkins died, pretty clearly, as a result of injuries from a fall, but the exact and immediate cause of death would be something else. He wasn't obese upon admission to the hospital -- there is a link to photos above of him shortly before his death, and admission records don't show obesity. "High protein diets damage kidneys" is a common assertion. Atkins isn't a high-protein diet, it is a high-fat low-carb diet, with mildly elevated protein compared to, say, the Food Pyramid. There is no evidence at all that his diet causes kidney problems, though someone with kidney problems already might need to be careful. There have been statements by medical experts that Atkins' heart infection was unrelated to his diet. By the way, the claim that the safety of Atkin's diet is based only on recent studies is misleading. Atkins himself based his diet on a publication in the Journal of the American Medical Association, and there have been cultures with HFLC diets for as long as there have been people. The diet of the Inuit, pre-civilization, was practically no carb, and it's been experimentally shown that carbs are not necessary for human nutrition. Yes, I know, this flies in the face of what many assume; I'd recommend reading Good Calories, Bad Calories, by Gary Taubes. Not a diet book, a science and history book, exposing a huge mistake that was made thirty to forty years ago. HFLC diets were used for the treatment of diabetes *commonly* in the 1920s, before insulin. The promotion of insulin was "now you can eat whatever you want," and the ADA still promotes this idea. Unmentioned, of course, was the risk involved in high carb consumption for diabetics. But also for the rest of us, it turns out. Taubes pretty convincingly lays out the case that the "diseases of civilization," those diseases that largely did not exist in "primitive societies" prior to the major changes that came with civilized contact and resulting dietary changes, i.e., diabetes, heart disease, cancer are caused by the shift to highly processed carbohydrates in the diet, and the low-fat propaganda of the last thirty years made things *worse*, because when you take fat out of the diet, it is inevitably replaced by something else. Replacing it with protein is dangerous, and replacing it with carbs *is also dangerous*. Fat, in fact, of the natural -- and saturated -- kind, may be one of the healthiest of foods, *cardioprotective*. At least what the recent studies show is that blood lipids improve on an Atkins diet, more than on other major recommended diets, so there is no reason to expect that the diet would not be heart-healthy. --Abd (talk) 04:25, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Material removed from article, for review.
I removed the two sections in the article, "Death" and "Bankruptcy." The first is radically out of balance. His death is one incident, what about his life? What did he *do*, in more detail than is in the introduction? The focus on his death and the controversy around it is essentially POV. There is *nothing* about his death that casts light on his work, it would be, *at best*, anecdotal evidence, depending on innuendo and speculation. In a longer article, mention of his death and the controversy around it would be appropriate, but not as practically half the article. He's famous for his work, it is far more notable than his manner of death. Then, the bankruptcy is not about him, but about a company, that made poor business decisions *after* his death. There is an article on Atkins Nutritionals, that is where that material belongs (I assume it's there, though I have not checked), not in his bio. I also removed the POV tag, since it was apparently based on the removed material, which I have copied below. --Abd (talk) 04:38, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Death
Around 2000, Atkins started to develop a heart condition, cardiomyopathy, which he claimed was unrelated to his diet. On April 18, 2002, Atkins suffered a cardiac arrest caused by an infection that spread to his heart muscle. At the time, Clyde Yancy, a cardiologist and member of the board of directors of the American Heart Association, was quoted as saying, "Despite the obvious irony, I believe there is a total disconnect between the cardiac arrest and the health approach he (Atkins) popularizes."

On April 8, 2003, Atkins slipped on ice and fell in front of his medical office in New York City and sustained major head injuries that put him in a coma. News of this quickly turned into rumors that Atkins had a heart attack while he was on his own diet. He never recovered from his injuries, and subsequently died on April 17 of kidney failure. Although it was illegal to do so, the New York City Medical Examiner’s Office released Atkins' medical records to the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, a group associated with PETA and which advocates a vegetarian diet. The record stated his weight to be approximately 255 lb (116 kg) at the time of death. In terms of simple height/weight measure (BMI), this would mean he was obese; the apparent irony of a diet guru being obese caused the information to be circulated around the world by the media and animal rights groups, much to the distress of his family. The Atkins company released a statement claiming that he weighed only 196 lb (89 kg) upon admission to the hospital and that his apparent increase in weight was due to fluid retention following the failure of his major organs. William Leith interviewed him in the period between his cardiac arrest and his fall. Leith writes, "He looks to be just under 6 feet tall and around 200 lbs – not skinny, not thin, but definitely not fat. The jowls around his neck are fairly minimal, signs of age rather than excess weight."

It should be noted that due to the great popularity of low carbohydrate diets in 2002-2003, Atkins had made many television appearances in the year before his death. This would have made it very difficult to hide it if Atkins had, indeed, been obese.

Bankruptcy of company
On July 31, 2005, Atkins Nutritionals&mdash;the company that Atkins founded in 1989&mdash;filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in New York. The company had been hurt in recent years by the fading popularity of its namesake diet and the rising popularity of other high-protein/low-carb diet plans. The company emerged from bankruptcy January 10, 2006 with a business strategy that softened the emphasis on the low carbohydrate diet and concentrated on the sales of prepared nutritional bars and shakes.

(end of copied material removed from article) --Abd (talk) 04:38, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Removal of link to post-mortem examination certificate
I've removed the link to Copy of Robert Atkins' Death Certificate, The Smoking Gun, particularly because the primary source document has been altered to emphasize weight at death, which is claimed elsewhere,and as mentioned in the Smoking Gun commentary, to be misleading because of weight gain due to retention of water while in a coma. This link might or might not be appropriate in a detailed discussion of his death. The link does go first to a discussion of the flap over the certificate, so it's possible it could be used in a discussion of the controversy. But just as a link in the bio, without exlanation from reliable source, no. It's prejudicial information from a primary source, emphasized in the source by the red arrow that's been added, without review in a reliable secondary source, and is an example of how primary source information, without fully informative context, can be misleading. I'll note, above, how some editors jumped to conclusions from that weight. That was the reason, I assume, that this death certificate was obtained and, probably illegally, distributed, to promote the impression that Atkins was obese. Apparently, from multiple sources, he was not. --Abd (talk) 16:36, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

I have left the External Link to the Smoking Gun commentary. That's useful to readers who want to look more deeply, and the commentary, sufficiently neutral, does contextualize the altered document itself. --Abd (talk) 16:39, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

lack of any reception of his work
This article didn't explain how his work was received by other doctors and by science in general. Is was totally devoid of context, and if Atkin's research happened in a void. --Enric Naval (talk) 09:02, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

And it didn't explain what happened with his ideas/work after he died. --Enric Naval (talk) 10:54, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

NPOV
I added some additional biographical details (with sources) and restructured the article to separate factual information about the man's life from critical examinations of the Atkins Diet. I have maintained the contextual information added by previous editors, but rephrased its presentation to represent a more neutral point of view.ÇaCestCharabia (talk) 09:26, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Atkins Gained 63 Pounds in Nine Days via FLUIDS?
Just came upon this article which definitely seems slanted toward a credulous acceptance of Atkins' theories. The portion dealing with the seemingly ironic nature of his death would have us believe his weight at death, which would classify him as obese on an actuarial scale, was the result of fluids pumped into his body as part of treatment for a severe head injury. We are told he gained more than sixty-three pounds in fluids! I work in the health field, and a sudden weight gain of far less than this would occasion great alarm. I'll endeavor to keep an open mind, but this doesn't pass the smell test. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JohnFMayer (talk • contribs) 05:01, 24 September 2014 (UTC)