Talk:Robert F. Kennedy Jr./Archive 7

RfC: description of RFK Jr's views on vaccines etc.
Should the lead say, (a) RFK Jr. is a conspiracy theorist, (b) RFK Jr. promotes conspiracy theories, or (c) avoid both terms in describing his views. TFD (talk) 01:55, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Survey

 * (b) Neutrality means that we should use descriptions typically used in reliable sources. He is variously described in reliable sources as "one of the most prominent faces of the anti-vaccine movement, according to experts," (ABC News) "founded Children’s Health Defense, an organization that regularly spreads anti-vaccine misinformation, and has promoted anti-vaccine conspiracy theories," (CNN) "anti-vaccination activist,"(BBC News) and "conspiracy theorist and vaccination opponent." (The Guardian)
 * WP:IMPARTIAL says that the tone of article should be impartial. That doesn't mean changing the facts in articles, but just the wording. We should not for example refer to someone as a disabled person, but a person with a disability. This is called People-first language. It avoids marginalization and dehumanization by describing what a person has or does rather than what they are.
 * Could anyone replying to my comment please do so in the comments section below.
 * TFD (talk) 01:59, 29 March 2024 (UTC)


 * A or B. I'm familiar with the argument that there's a substantive difference between "is a conspiracy theorist" and "promotes conspiracy theories", but I don't see enough there to have an opinion either way. I'd normally favor the latter for brevity, but since we have "promotes ..." in the lead sentence as is, there's no real character count difference. In case it matters, I'm a fan of person-first language—though there are strong arguments against the practice—but I don't think it's commonly or appropriately applied to willfully chosen roles/jobs/activities/opinions as opposed to unchangeable characteristics born of genetics or circumstance. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:09, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
 * A: Looking at pages in Category:American conspiracy theorists, they all say the same. We don't say "person who advocates for change in environmental policy", we say "environmentalist" (or in Kennedy's instance, "environmental lawyer"). There's no real reason to say that he "promotes conspiracy theories" when the term "conspiracy theorist" is both more concise and used more than the former. Unknown-Tree🌲? (talk) 02:45, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
 * A - the actual language used by our sources, by and large. -- Orange Mike &#124;  Talk  05:46, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
 * A per reliable sources and conciseness. – Muboshgu (talk) 14:48, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
 * A per Unknown-Tree and conciseness. oncamera  (talk page) 16:17, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
 * A per WP:RS and conciseness. He is a conspiracist, just look at his claims about Anthony Fauci. SkepticalRaptor (talk) 16:52, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Malformed RFC; both A and B can be used I honestly think this is going to be a WP: SNOWCLOSE. This isn't really a matter of dispute and a false dichotomy. Both can be used. KlayCax (talk) 17:17, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
 * A Multiple reliable sources all describe him as a conspiracy theorist, and he is best known for being a conspiracy theorist. Jeppiz (talk) 20:28, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
 * A because that term is used widely throughout Wikipedia to describe people who promote conspiracy theories, and saying "RFK Jr. promotes conspiracy theories" seems like a way to downplay his positions. OrcaLord (talk) 02:32, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
 * A, per my vote in the last RfC. The language of "RFK is a etc etc who has done such and such" is awkward and cumbersome. Multiple reliable sources have detailed his anti-vaccine conspiracy theories (Fauci profiting off vaccines, vaccines causing autism, Bill Gates starving the unvaccinated, etc.) in great detail, so the conspiracy theorist label is due and much more apt than the current awkward phrasing. ser! (chat to me - see my edits) 20:38, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
 * A as this is how many sources describe the subject. Zaathras (talk) 17:10, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
 * A or B. There is a distinction between the two. Alex Jones is the textbook definition of a conspiracy theorist, so that's my frame of reference. The sources TFD provide do show very reliable sources calling RFK Jr. a conspiracy theorist in their own words, so A is completely valid. SWinxy (talk) 19:42, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
 * A or B as per previous comments Vegan416 (talk) 23:26, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
 * C - Op-ed repetition doesn't make it not a perjorative. - Tzaquiel (talk) 03:28, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
 * perfect commie (talk) 01:40, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
 * C, different sources call him different things. I don't think there's an objectively right answer, so just shunt the details to a different section on his page where it could be explained in more detail.--Ortizesp (talk) 12:44, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
 * A. Sources provided by TFD above and sources on the page clearly define him as such. My very best wishes (talk) 15:49, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
 * A. Reality cannot be avoided here, regardless of the article's WP:BLP status. Black Kite (talk) 17:12, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
 * A A person who promotes conspiracy theories is a conspiracy theorist, and more importantly it how secondary sources describe the subject. -- LCU A ctively D isinterested  «@» °∆t° 17:13, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
 * A for the prevailing description in reliable sources. RFK Jr.'s public stance and activities have consistently been characterised by RS as conspiracy theory advocacy, particularly regarding vaccines. This terminology is concise and avoiding it, when widely adopted by sources, could inadvertently obscure RFK Jr.'s positions. FailedMusician (talk) 21:22, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
 * A Short, sweet, and supported by sources. XOR&#39;easter (talk) 18:37, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Note The following gallery of IP and SPA comments with no or bogus rationale were all added in the wrong section in several spurts on 8 and 10 April.
 * Option C. Jumping into the labeling of negativity is not correct. Remove mentions of it. People need to do research. Envyforme (talk) 03:09, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Option C. Let people come to their own conclusions without labeling him from the 32.221.241.159 (talk) 09:27, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
 * C None of his statements about vaccines or anything elese comes from a conspiratorial point of view. He has won cases and represented people on many of the views he holds after careful reading of the science literature. Claiming a source is reliable, because they have been purported to be reliable in the past does not make a reasonable claim. It is very much an editorialization of his views that comes from a place of bias, and should not be valid in the itroduction of a person who is much more than the opinions of mainstream biased journalists. 2600:100C:A20F:C396:487:C6F2:B3DD:2ED3 (talk) 11:51, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
 * C options A & B are simply baseless and discredit the legitimately of wikipedia 2601:548:C103:2E40:E941:8CA7:C4EB:24E5 (talk) 12:50, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
 * (C) The only primary sources that make claims of RFK Jr being ‘anti-vax,’ or a ‘conspiracy theorist,’ are funded by organizations with a financial interest in the current system. He has repeatedly stated that he wants better testing (third-party). That sounds like a position that is more consistent with the scientific method. 2601:405:8500:76A0:980C:DC9E:AAE2:CB82 (talk) 22:00, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
 * C. Avoid both terms. He is not a conspiracy theorist nor is he promoting conspiracy theories. 2604:2D80:5009:FC00:65D7:B833:A439:2EFB (talk) 08:12, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
 * C. Avoid both terms. He is not a conspiracy theorist nor is he promoting conspiracy theories. Sbegonia515 (talk) 08:14, 10 April 2024 (UTC) — Sbegonia515 (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * C. seems the obvious choice on a platform seemingly intended to inform not convince. I am sympathetic to the opinions of others and recognize their 1st amendment right have them and they be different than mine; however this is not a place for opinions. Something like Wikipedia, at least to me, should remain fact based ONLY despite the popularity of said facts. The term conspiracy theorist is widely intended to be an insult in today's day and age. It is irresponsible for Wiki to allow this type of blatant negative labeling. This also has a defamation air to it. McGreggor13 (talk) 14:29, 10 April 2024 (UTC) — McGreggor13 (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.


 * A as that is how RS refer to him. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 15:19, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
 * (End of IP-SPA Gallery above)
 * (End of IP-SPA Gallery above)


 * A - This reflects what the sources say. I'm concerned there might be some meatpuppeting going on above?  Comments such as "wikipedia is not the place for opinions" does not demonstrate a thorough knowledge of wikipedia policies and practices, which leads me to suspect that there might be off-site canvassing. Please note: we're all about opinions, if those opinions are reported and extensively discussed in reliable sources. Avoiding labels that could be disparaging is expressly not what WP:NPOV means. Fieari (talk) 05:30, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Comments
Can we get some sort of examples here this is kind of meaningless. Moxy 🍁 02:12, 29 March 2024 (UTC)


 * I provided four examples in my vote. TFD (talk) 02:57, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
 * , an example for A might be:
 * Whereas B might look like: Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:02, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

User:Unknown-Tree, sorry if I wasn't clear. The reason reliable sources use the expression "person with a disability" rather than "disabled person" is to avoid dehumanizing them. Calling someone an environmental lawyer is not dismissive or judgmental. Other examples of respectful language are "undocumented immigrant" instead of "illegal immigrant," "person of color" instead of "colored person." While many people see this as politically correct nonsense, it's how language is used in reliable sources today. TFD (talk) 10:55, 29 March 2024 (UTC)


 * But "conspiracy theorist" is how reliable sources cover RFK Jr. (and is what we say in other articles, too), and there's a notable difference between something like a conspiracy theorist and sometimes like someone who's disabled. Yes, I do agree that in the latter instance, we should avoid dehumanising language, but the usage of "conspiracy theorist" is not dehumanising when a major part of his brand identity is his anti-vaccine views. Unknown-Tree🌲? (talk) 17:00, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
 * As I said, some, such as The Guardian, do while most, such as ABC News, CNN and BBC News, don't. TFD (talk) 04:08, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding this, but this appears to be a malformed RFC. Does anyone dispute that he's a conspiracy theorist? I'm assuming this has to do with the first sentence? Or no? KlayCax (talk) 11:27, 29 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Sorry, if I was not clear. The question is about how he should be described: as a conspiracy theorist, as someone who supports conspiracy theories or some other phrasing. TFD (talk) 13:45, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Are you arguing that he's not a conspiracy theorist? Because it seems obvious to me that he is. I feel like I'm misinterpreting something. KlayCax (talk) 19:45, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
 * No, please read my comment above. Articles say Joe Biden "made several false or exaggerated claims," Donald Trump Trump "promoted conspiracy theories and made many false and misleading statements," Bill Clinton "engaged in an extramarital affair with Gennifer Flowers" and Osama bin Laden "was the organizer of the September 11 attacks, which killed nearly 3,000 people."
 * Yet their articles do not refer to them as a liar, a conspiracy theorist, an adulterer and a murderer. My concern is that this article use the neutral tone used in most reliable sources rather than judgmental terminology more suited for polemical writing. TFD (talk) 00:08, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Are there reliable sources that call them that? For the first three, if you wanted to explain to somebody who they are, those words are not the first that come to mind because they have done more important things. For Osama, "murderer" is a bit tame and also follows logically from more pertinent descriptions. But for Kennedy, as others explained, conspiracy theorist is basically his job description. --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:01, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
 * See "The Conspiracy Theorist in Chief" (Jamelle Bouie, Slate March 6, 2017), which begins, "Donald Trump is a conspiracy theorist." But we are not supposed to decide what terminology to use, then search for sources that use them. we are supposed to use the terminology usually used in rs. TFD (talk) 14:30, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

I've thrown in my vote but even though the activist part isn't dealt with in the RfC, "anti-vaccine activist and conspiracy theorist" would be much better than "conspiracy theorist who promotes anti-vaccine misinformation" in my eyes. Even if an activist isn't dealing in the truth they're still an activist, and we deal with the fact it's misinformation in the third paragraph. ser! (chat to me - see my edits) 20:41, 30 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Yep, it's janky, and both fall under the title of conspiracy theorist. There's no need to repeat it three times in the lead. It's insulting to the intelligence of readers. KlayCax (talk) 20:51, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

RFC: What should the first sentence say about Kennedy Jr.?
What should the first sentence say about Kennedy Jr.?
 * 1) is an American politician, environmental lawyer, activist, and conspiracy theorist (and/or) anti-vaccine activist. (With Kennedy assassination + anti-vaccine misinformation + public health conspiracy conspiracy theories moved to another part of the lead.)
 * 2) is an American politician, environmental lawyer, and activist who promotes conspiracy theories surrounding members of the Kennedy family, anti-vaccine misinformation, and other public health conspiracy theories. ( should be stated twice. Once in the leading sentence. The other in the last paragraph of the lead.)
 * 3) is an American politician, environmental lawyer, and activist who promotes anti-vaccine misinformation and public health conspiracy theories. ( should be stated twice. One time in the first sentence. The other in the last paragraph of the lead.)
 * 4) Conspiracy theories about the Kennedy assassinations, anti-vaccine misinformation, and public health conspiracy theories shouldn't be mentioned in the lead at all.
 * 5) Another option not listed.

Started due to long-term editing dispute without consensus. Interested to see everyone's thoughts. Thanks! :) KlayCax (talk) 02:07, 6 April 2024 (UTC)


 * WTF? Why start an rfc about the lead sentence when there's already an open rfc about mentioning "conspiracy theorist" in the lead? Also, there is no "long-term editing dispute", the only disgruntled editor bent on removing the current lead wording appears to be you. Zaathras (talk) 02:12, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
 * TFD and others have objected as well. Kennedy Jr. is obviously a conspiracy theorist so it's a WP: SNOWCLOSE situation. KlayCax (talk) 02:18, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
 * That doesn't address the point that there's already an RfC open on essentially the same effing thing. Zaathras (talk) 02:48, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
 * One is about whether Kennedy should be described as a conspiracy theorist.
 * The other is about whether "Kennedy assassination + anti-vaccine misinformation + public health conspiracy conspiracy theories" belongs in the first sentence. Two different things.
 * (I suppose labeling Kennedy as a conspiracy theorist. I oppose the rest being in the lead sentence.) Two different topic areas. I realize they're unfortunately pretty similar, however. KlayCax (talk) 03:14, 6 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Procedural close This is just repeatedly submitting RfCs in order to eventually get enough people (often SPAs) to vote for the WP:FRINGE-violating version. Even if that wasn't your intent, KlayCax, that's how it appears. Silver  seren C 02:26, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
 * RFC's aren't determined by numbers. (In regards to your SPA-question). They're determined by Wikipedia policy.
 * TFD, me, and several other editors have all objected to the phrasing, and this is the most simple way to resolve the matter without an endless comment chain. KlayCax (talk) 02:33, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Can you reopen the RfC or is there a way to get someone above silverseren involved? I'm tired of the way Wikipedia handles this stuff this is getting ridiculous. 189.202.249.202 (talk) 02:38, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The RFC isn't closed. It's a suggested close, . I do however agree with you that much of the phrasing belongs in the third paragraph. KlayCax (talk) 02:56, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Can you do your job and actually see quite a large number of people don't like this description and want it changed? Instead you turn down RfCs and allow a blockage of specific edits to be decided by a minority. Very sad. 189.176.48.231 (talk) 02:34, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
 * With all due respect, the opinions of IPs who are not actual editors in standing here do not get counted when determining consensus of a discussion in a contentious topic areas. like this. Zaathras (talk) 02:49, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Apologies, having some sign in problems being out of the country I reside in.
 * the topic is contentious, but you cannot let contentious topics block your mindset from actual conversation to update something that should be adjusted. The requests are being made in reason on this talk page. Envyforme (talk) 03:10, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
 * #5: Option not listed—an American politician and conspiracy theorist. (By now, other than being a Kennedy, he is known for two things). The first sentence of the lead should be no more complex than necessary. Further details are summarized later in the lede. (perhaps one more identifying phrase might be added to the leading sentence, but no more. —  N eonorange (talk to Phil) (he, they) 05:11, 6 April 2024 (UTC) —
 * I agree with this option. Maybe also say lawyer. But the rest of the lede has necessary information and the opening sentence should be succinct. Tchouppy (talk) 17:36, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Procedural close due to incoming trainwreck. This is a lot of options and it doesn't even include the status quo ante. If not closed, then Option 5/status quo ante, specifically "is an American politician, environmental lawyer, and activist who promotes conspiracy theories surrounding members of the Kennedy family, anti-vaccine misinformation, and other public health conspiracy theories". As opposed to option 2, this should not be repeated verbatim later in the lead, though some details of each part should be mentioned. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 18:31, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Simply close this RfC with no alteration. Status quo is OK, viz: is an American politician, environmental lawyer, anti-vaccine activist, and conspiracy theorist. It covers most of the main claims to notability. It is reasonably succinct. I think adding a clause about promoting misinformation would enhance it.  Diluting conspiracy theorist with a misleading qualifier about Kennedy family is simply wrong.  The person who started this misbegotten RfC lets us know the reason earlier: the lede "comes accross as 'this is a very bad guy'". I don't see why that would be a problem. -- M.boli (talk) 22:13, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
 * If you label someone as a "bad guy" when he isn't a bad guy, the fact you don't see that as a problem is very concerning. Envyforme (talk) 02:52, 8 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Option 5 - Something different.
 * "Robert Francis Kennedy Jr. (born January 17, 1954), aka RFK Jr., is a multifaceted figure, engaging in American politics, environmental law, and advocacy, notably challenging conventional views on vaccine safety."
 * This verbatim I believe solves every single problem here. I believe jumping the gun and immediately calling someone anti-anything or a conspiracy theorist is incorrect, and doesn't continue to shine a character correctly. You can mention it in the second sentence if you want, but, keep in mind, Google, Facebook, and multiple other embedded web calls to wikipedia continue to show the first sentence for searching a specific figure.
 * Google RFK JR now. you see the term "Conspiracy Theorist and Anti Vax." If you dig further into the person, you can see he has a very bright history, and has a great background as an environmental lawyer and politician. This is part of the reason I cannot help but ask if this is a bit politically motivated by Democrats/Republicans. I want to keep the topic away from here, but I do have to bring this up.
 * Wikipedia is used to provide information to people in a non-biased matter. Not to label people a certain way directly, right away. Focusing on the downfalls of someone and prioritizing that is weaponizing a website like Wikipedia, and not correct.
 * Do NOT. I repeat Do NOT Close the RFC based on claims of keeping the current verbatim, as this is not correct and many others do not agree with this. Envyforme (talk) 02:52, 8 April 2024 (UTC)


 * If you wish to write a gushing hagiography about the subject then run, don't walk, to Twitter and tweet it out. This sort of thing will never appear in the Wikipedia. Zaathras (talk) 02:59, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Then provide an alternative? I think it is fair and just. Envyforme (talk) 09:00, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia does not do alternative facts, and if "fair and just" means that grifters and loons (like the ones whose false claims Kennedy lawyers for) get the same standing as experts, the Wikipedia does not do that either. Read WP:FRINGE and WP:FALSEBALANCE. --Hob Gadling (talk) 09:09, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 May 2024
Remove "conspiracy theorist" from RFK Jr's attributes as this makes unproven assumptions about what the Democratic view of a conspiracy theorist is. If he is an anti-vaccination advocate, that is his position, and appropriate to add as an attribute. A conspiracy theorist, however, is a broad derogatory term used here to make Democrats believe he is not on their side. It would be fair to list his specific positions/beliefs on policies and world/national matters. Please maintain your non-political stance and remove that verbiage. 2601:40D:8000:B910:4C5F:C1CC:1ACC:5280 (talk) 17:34, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
 * No, according to many reliable sources (RS), he pushes many disproven conspiracy theories. Look up some of the RS found right after these words in the lead "and public health conspiracy theories". We document what RS say. -- Valjean (talk) ( PING me )

"The Courage to Face COVID-19" is not a book by RFK, Jr.
"The Courage to Face COVID-19: Preventing Hospitalization and Death While Battling the Bio–Pharmaceutical Complex" is by John Leake and Peter A. McCullough. Not sure why it's listed as a notable work by RFK Jr. He isn't an author on it. That should be removed. Questionheir (talk) 18:39, 14 May 2024 (UTC)


 * After doing an internet search on that book, it appears that you are correct, Kennedy is not an author on it. Not sure why it was listed on this page, it has now been removed. A. Randomdude0000 (talk) 18:56, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 May 2024
3rd paragraph of this section. Change:

> wrongly claiming that all casualties of the Donbas War between 2014 and 2022 (about 14,000) were Russian civilians.

to:

> claiming that most of the casualties of the Donbas War between 2014 and 2022 (about 14,000) were Russians.

Why?

Fuller quote from the same source: "The Donbas region, which is 80% ethnic Russian — and Russians that were being systematically killed by the Ukrainian government ..."

Article currently states, citing same source, using a smaller portion of this exact same quote:

> wrongly claiming that all casualties of the Donbas War between 2014 and 2022 (about 14,000) were Russian civilians. He said that Russians living there "were being systematically killed by the Ukrainian government".

There is no indication of Kennedy stating what the Wiki article attributes to him. Regardless of whether his claims of "80% ethnic Russians" are correct, he did not "wrongly claim that all casualties are Russian". Not to mention a stark difference between ethnicity and citizenship, which are mistakenly conflated in this paragraph. The phrasing "Russian civilians" is also questionable and infers something that Kennedy didn't say(though probably meant, meaning that they were non-combatants) Conciseman (talk) 01:12, 16 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: In fact, the source clearly presents the quote from RFK Jr. “We [the United States] put a new government in [Ukraine] that immediately makes a civil war against the Russian population of Donbas, bans the Russian language, kills 14,000 of them..." That claim is false, and indeed claims that all 14,000 he's referring to were Russian civilians. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:00, 17 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Indeed, the freshly-added source does feature this quote. Thanks to whoever found and added it, as it does more clearly indicate the distorted perception [of Kennedy's]. Not just in this particular matter, but in the overall recap of the 2014-2022 events in Donbass. Conciseman (talk) 21:47, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 May 2024
Anti Vax is an absurd title, say pro safe vaccine, or vaccine activist and anti vax as a job is just incorrect, if you guys really want to put legit research which a encyclopedia is supposed to, fix something to what is true 2601:601:601:2930:71F7:5638:DABB:8133 (talk) 08:21, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Not done. Reliable sources disagree with your opinion. Reliable sources win. --Hob Gadling (talk) 08:25, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Split "Political positions" into separate page?
I made a similar suggestion on the Robert F. Kennedy Jr. 2024 presidential campaign page, which has a similar "political positions" section that is getting a bit lengthy - and has different information vs. the section on this page. Should this be spun off into a separate page, like it is for other political candidates. The section on this page can remain with a few paragraphs summarizing key positions, then linking off to the main article. Thoughts? Sk5893 (talk) 22:51, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

We the People Party Affiliation should be added to page
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_the_People_Party Dennisconsorte (talk) 13:55, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Biased/Unnecessary Information - Edit Request
Robert F. Kennedy Jr.’s wiki page has unnecessary and biased information included. I don’t see a reason why he is listed as an anti-vaccine activist and conspiracy theorist.To me, that shows ignorance and bias. His page also goes on to state this:

Since 2005, Kennedy has promoted anti-vaccine misinformation 6 and public health conspiracy theories, including the scientifically disproven claim of a causal link between vaccines and autism

I really don’t see why this information should be included on a person’s wiki page. These topics are divisive, and it seems to me that the person who last edited his page may have let their bias get the best of them. I see the responses keep saying that the “reliable” sources being used list Robert as these things. Can I suggest using “reliable” sources from all backgrounds and not those that have the same views/interests?

I request that this information be removed from the page, unless Robert himself requested this to be in there.

Thanks 2600:8800:8E81:EA00:25BF:A2A0:8992:6D2D (talk) 18:04, 3 June 2024 (UTC)


 * It's one of the things he is best known for in the past two decades.  Eve rgr een Fir  (talk) 18:12, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

In February 2022, RFK Jr tried the first vaccine case at the state level in United States history
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Talk:Career

I'm not sure if I'm doing this correctly, but I'd like to suggest an IMPORTANT ADDITION to Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s "Career" section.

In February 2022, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. led a team of attorneys in the first negligence-based vaccine case to go to trial at the state level in United States History.

The trial, styled "William Yates Hazelhurst, By and Through his Conservator Rolf G.S. Hazlehurst v. E. Cartlon Hayes, M.D. and The Jackson Clinic Professional Association," took place at the Madison County Circuit Courthouse in Jackson, Tennessee, and began on February 2, 2022, and ended on February 18, 2022. Senior Judge William B. Acree, Jr. presided over the trial.

On February 18, 2022, the jury sided with the defense and found that Dr. Hayes and The Jackson Clinic Professional Association were not liable for Mr. Hazlehurt's medical injury.

Source 1: Tennessee Jury Verdict Reporter - https://www.juryverdicts.net/TN7-22.pdf

Source 2: I also have copies of various orders from the trial.

Let me know if you'd like more information. Survivor200 (talk) 23:52, 3 June 2024 (UTC)


 * You need a reliable source that covers it. See WP:RS. Zaathras (talk) 00:41, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Addition & Revision Requests
Addition request: He was the first to successfully sue Monsanto Co. for their cancer-causing RoundUp. He defended school groundskeeper Dwayne Johnson in Johnson vs Monsanto Co. (1) (2)

Revision request: The statement that Children’s Health Defense (CHD) spreads misinformation is incorrect. The website sources clinical, peer-reviewed evidence that’s published on industry-respected medical platforms. These sources are cited within each claim/article/information statement (4) (5). The website also hosts a searchable database of scientific literature (3), the results of which include direct links to, again, sources subject to peer-review on clinical publishing platforms such as pubmed (6) (7), mdpi (8), Frontiers in Immunology (9) (10), & more. Furthermore, the CDC’s own Pinkbook admits many modern-day outbreaks were among the vaccinated, such as Haemophilus influenzae type b (Hib) (11) & poliovirus (12), for example.

1. https://law.justia.com/cases/california/court-of-appeal/2020/a155940.html

2 https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/10/health/monsanto-johnson-trial-verdict/index.html

3. https://childrenshealthdefense.org/research-database/?section=Research+Articles

4. https://childrenshealthdefense.org/vaccine-secrets/video-chapters/vaccines-contain-dangerous-ingredients-small-doses-can-be-unhealthy-disease-is-a-product-of-genetics-and-environment/

5. https://childrenshealthdefense.org/emr/emf-wireless-health-impacts/

6. https://childrenshealthdefense.org/wp-content/uploads/Do-vaccines-increase-or-decrease-susceptibility-to-diseases-other-than-those-they-protect-against_-PubMed.pdf

7. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36625174/

8. https://childrenshealthdefense.org/wp-content/uploads/Dysautonomia-Following-Tetanus-Diphtheria-and-Pertussis-Vaccine-Tdap-The-First-Case-of-Extreme-Cachexia-Caused-by-Autoimmune-Inflammatory-Syndrome-Induced-by-Adjuvants-ASIA-Syndrome-in-a-Human.pdf

9. https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/immunology/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2023.1242380/full

10. https://childrenshealthdefense.org/wp-content/uploads/BNT162b2-COVID-19-vaccination-in-children-alters-cytokine-responses-to-heterologous-pathogens-and-Toll-like-receptor-agonists.pdf

11. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/hib.html

12. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/polio.html 2600:1005:B19E:8789:A859:258E:A486:A01E (talk) 06:44, 5 June 2024 (UTC)


 * I looked at the Monsanto-mention in the article, and some mention of the outcome of the lawsuits wouldn't be unreasonable. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:17, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Nature conservation activist
Hi, as regards this reversal of my edit by - how does my edit violate  MOS:ROLEBIO? Sure, there is slightly more sources that describe him as than, but it is not a categorical difference - and since the latter is more significant across his entire career, I do not see why it should be excluded.

The current version gives the sense that although he has trained and practiced as an environmental lawyer, his primary political focus has been anti-vaccine disinformation, which is not really the case and in fact seems non-neutral, as if intended to minimize and discredit his work as a whole. -- MA SHAUN IX 09:11, 2 June 2024 (UTC)


 * MOS:ROLEBIO says in part The noteworthy position(s) or role(s) the person held should usually be stated in the opening paragraph. However, avoid overloading the lead paragraph with various and sundry roles; instead, emphasize what made the person notable. RFK Jr is notable for his bloodlines, his environmental activism, and his antivaccine activism. Not for nature conservation. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:25, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * So are you saying playing a lead role in restoring the hudson river is not considered nature conservation? If not, could you please provide an example of what would fit that description so we can better understand your reversal of the edit? Concerned.citizen37 (talk) 08:33, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Lede weasel
I think this edit to the lede added weasel-words. Several reverts have ensued, so probably time to discuss on talk page. What do people think? -- M.boli (talk) 20:22, 12 June 2024 (UTC)


 * It's the actions of a lone edit-warrior who will probably just see a topic ban if they persist. Nothing to really discuss. Zaathras (talk) 20:59, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm in agreement with you. It's fairly well-described in reliable sources as being this rather than being "widely described" so I think it's grand as it is. Going to courtesy ping as this concerns their version. ser! (chat to me - see my edits) 21:00, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Did anything happened while I was gone? I did research on the general consensus and sources. The original version is objectively correct considering that. Logawinner (talk) 01:44, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep researching and you will discover the sky is generally considered as blue and the sun is widely described as rising in the east. That's the problem with your edit. -- M.boli (talk) 02:10, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
 * That makes sense that there is a better way to go about this and a potentially better way to word it. I will just ask the appropriate people and let that decision be made. Logawinner (talk) 02:48, 13 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Note that Logawinner may be canvassing users to come to the discussion, and . Zaathras (talk) 03:29, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Not surprising. A user hiding for months and active only in very specific, unrelated topics discovered his fan-love to RFK Jr.
 * Nothing to be done here, another useless waste of bytes "discussing" it. --Julius Senegal (talk) 06:31, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
 * After further research into the topic and reading of this article as suggested by the users I asked for guidance. It appears that this article errs on the side of fairness. Inherent bias will occur even on trusted sources but our job is not to interpret those sources but to present them in a proper manner free of our own biases. Some may question the location of certain information but it does not appear to be misallocated for the purpose of bias. This article is not vandalized as some seem to be claiming. The irony is that for the claimed purpose of eliminating bias it is being vandalized with their own biases. We use sources, not hunches or beliefs, this has come full circle from by time on the religious side of English Wikipedia. Thank you for this re-examination. Logawinner (talk) 03:44, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I will add my voice to people saying that "widely considered" is at best redundant and at worst starts to blur the line between knowledge and belief. He is in fact an advocate against vaccines and so in fact is his organization and these facts are all verifiable across reliable sources across time. We should not demote facts to "widely considered". Jorahm (talk) 17:33, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 June 2024
The following sentence should be removed with no replacement: "Since 2005, Kennedy has promoted anti-vaccine misinformation[6] and public health conspiracy theories,[7] including the scientifically disproven claim of a causal link between vaccines and autism. This sentence should be removed because it is not true. It states, "the scientifically disproven claim of a causal link between vaccines and autism." It has neither been proven, nor disproven. No one knows what causes autism, but it most likely is caused by a myriad of factors. No one knows what all of those factors are. You can say, 'I don't think the vaccines have any impact,' but that has not been scientifically proven. It could be a a very small factor, or none at all. BUT WE DO NOT KNOW. There not enough scientific evidence to support or deny the possibility of a casual relationship.23:39, 27 June 2024 (UTC)23:39, 27 June 2024 (UTC) 2600:1702:2212:5000:A076:E94F:D97D:7A97 (talk) 23:39, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: Read the FAQ. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:50, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 July 2024
This article is incredibly biased. Robert F. Kennedy Jr is not a "conspiracy theorist" and it is biased terminology to label him as such. He has had views challenging the preconceptions of vaccination, and that is it. Everything that is *thoroughly* cited in this article can remain, however, the "conspiracy theorist" comment is unneeded and peddles a biased viewpoint. 104.181.35.198 (talk) 05:34, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: Read the FAQ. --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:02, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 June 2024
The first sentence in this page refers to Kennedy as an “anti-vaccine activist” which is a simplification that I believe has misled many people on his beliefs and hurt his campaign recently. Kennedy supports the established vaccines, like for mumps and tetanus for example. He only wanted a little more research on the COVID vaccine. The phrase “anti-vaccine advocate” makes it seem like he is against many vaccines, and that it is a major part of his platform, but it’s not, and does not need to be mentioned in the first sentence or any phrased this way. So, what I am asking if that that phrase be removed. 24.171.1.89 (talk) 15:08, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: He has made false statements about the efficacy of the measles and tetanus vaccines too, actually. It is his platform. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:57, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
 * You are clearly biased, should you recuse yourself from managing this article? Why would someone be labeled "any-vax" for questioning "official" numbers regarding efficacy of a drug? We should question everything, right? JoshMcCullough (talk) 19:14, 3 July 2024 (UTC)