Talk:Robert J. Walker

Slaveholder
He owned slaves. This should be mentioned up front. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.49.141.148 (talk) 17:40, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
 * "should be mentioned up front", can you cite which policy or guideline requires to do it? © Tb hotch ™ (en-3). 17:42, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Where is the guideline that mentions that it needs to mention his being a laywer or being an economist? Is the fact that he enslaved people less important than those things? Tb hotch ™ (en-3) can you explain why owning people is less important information than having gotten a degree in economics? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.49.141.148 (talk • contribs)
 * Manual of Style/Biography. © Tb hotch ™ (en-3). 17:49, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

“When writing about controversies in the lead section of a biography, relevant material should neither be suppressed nor allowed to overwhelm“ - seems like you’re doing a bit of the suppression here, no? Nice argument by linking to the entire document explaining how to write about people rather than pointing to any specific ruling in particular. Seems more like you just don’t want the edit to go through if you don’t cite the actual rule and the rules themselves are counter to your behavior... Innuhnet (talk) 17:57, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
 * You asked for the guideline, I gave you what you wanted. It also says: "The lead section must summarise the life and works of the person with due weight." Not "call racists racists, homophobes homophobes and slaveowners slaveowners". © Tb hotch ™ (en-3). 18:00, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
 * And as you want the paragraphs because you don't want to read, here they go:


 * "The lead sentence should describe the person as they are commonly described in reliable sources."
 * "The noteworthy position(s) or role(s) the person held should usually be stated in the opening paragraph. However, avoid overloading the lead paragraph with various and sundry roles; instead, emphasize what made the person notable."
 * And of course I love that there never complains about how articles like Adolf Hitler are written, but let's burn all these slaveowners mothafuckas! © Tb hotch ™ (en-3). 18:04, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Owning slaves and operating a plantation has just as much to do with his business as an economist as having a degree in economics. Why do we call economists economists? Because it’s materially useful for understanding their life and context. Being a slaveholder politician in the south in the pre civil war era is materially important and you’re not doing anything to back up your position beyond saying “because I don’t want to” Innuhnet (talk) 18:05, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Sounds like you have a particular soft spot for why slaveholders get differentials less respect than Hitler- maybe I should look at your edit history for evidence of bias about how biographies are written... wonder what I’d find! Innuhnet (talk) 18:06, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Also why did you spell mothafuckas that way... I wonder! Innuhnet (talk) 18:07, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
 * "Sounds like you have a particular soft spot for why slaveholders get differentials less respect than Hitler- maybe I should look at your edit history for evidence of bias about how biographies are written." Do it, you'll get bored after 10 minutes. And it's funny I am the one with bias here.
 * From George Washington's lead paragraph:

"Washington owned slaves, and, in order to preserve national unity, he supported measures passed by Congress to protect slavery. He later became troubled with the institution of slavery and freed his slaves in a 1799 will. He endeavored to assimilate Native Americans into Anglo-American culture but combated indigenous resistance during occasions of violent conflict."


 * From Leopold II of Belgium's lead paragraph:

"Leopold's administration of the Congo was characterised by atrocities, including torture and murder, resulting from notorious systematic brutality. The hands of men, women, and children were amputated when the quota of rubber was not met. Millions of the Congolese people died: modern estimates range from 1 million to 15 million deaths, with a consensus growing around 10 million."


 * From Adolf Hitler's lead paragraph:

"Under Hitler's leadership and racially motivated ideology, the Nazi regime was responsible for the genocide of about 6 million Jews and millions of other victims whom he and his followers deemed Untermenschen (subhumans) or socially undesirable."


 * From Marcial Maciel's lead paragraph:

"On March 25, 2010, a communiqué on the legion's website acknowledged as factual the "reprehensible actions" by Maciel, including sexual abuse of minor seminarians."


 * Yet with all these examples, you won't see how we write biographies. But hey, I'm the biased person here. © Tb hotch ™ (en-3). 18:18, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

So what is the issue with adding it here than if you’re apparently in favor with the others? Innuhnet (talk) 18:21, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Does Washington start with "American slaveowner, political leader, military general, statesman, and founding father"? Does Leopold II start with "torturer, murderer, brutal second King of the Belgians from 1865 to 1909"? Does Hitler starts with "German dictator/politician, Holocaust perpetrator, white nationalist and leader of the Nazi Party"? Does Maciel start with "Mexican pedophile, and Catholic priest who founded the Legion of Christ"? Then why Walker should start with "slaveowner" when owning slaves was not his main job like it was for James C. Freeman and Ephraim Williams. © Tb hotch ™ (en-3). 18:32, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

"Walker and his uncle also speculated in cotton, land and slaves." - from this very article - it *was* his job, it was integral to his advancement in life. I don't know why you're pushing so hard against inclusion if (a) you insist that it's reasonable to mention this as an important facet of the biography, and (b) it's reasonable to mention it with his contemporaries. Where do you draw the line here? Why does this case deserve special treatment beyond the fact that you've now dug in on a position? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Innuhnet (talk • contribs) 18:49, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Comment
Loan from Germany? Germany didn't strictly speaking exist until 1871. Does the article mean Prussia? TallNapoleon (talk) 19:25, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I changed the Germany Wiki link to the German Confederation as it was obviously wrong.

Is that sum correct for the loan amount $250,000,00? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.66.3.241 (talk) 06:44, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

"References" verses "External links"
There was an external link added (The Colt Revolver in the American West—Robert J. Walker's Presentation Model 1851 Navy) that qualifies as a reference. Along with Biographical Directory of the United States Congress, unless someone has reasons for disqualification, I think should be used properly. Otr500 (talk) 02:00, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

More work needed
I need to leave the library now, but write because I was shocked at double-checking his entry using ancestry.com and seeing him as a slaveholder after 1838. I don't know when or if I'll have time to fix this article, as I intended to fix the Wheeling Suspension Bridge article this afternoon, got distracted with the Col. Robert McCormick article, and it's now dinnertime and I have other matters to attend to this week. Anyhow, this Robert J. Walker has an article in Appleton's Cyclopedia of American Biography which says he promoted the treaty for suppressing the African slave trade, manumitted slaves in 1838, and consistently advocated gradual emancipation. Since his mother died in Mississippi and his brother had children, I'm curious if any fought for the Confederacy (or if his sons fought for the Union). Also, Appletons says his father was a U.S. district judge and that this Walker (a financier of the highest rank) was the U.S. financial agent in Europe in 1863 and negotiated $250,000,000 in "5-20" bonds.Jweaver28 (talk) 22:44, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Although I skipped a couple of needed exercise classes to clean this up a bit, I don't have time nor access to the full Oxford University Press book I cited, the Road to Disunion (1991). However, the excerpts available indicate Walker may have been a fairly important justifier of slavery, alongside Thomas Roderick Dew (who became President of the College of William and Mary), which make clarification of his slaveholding status more important IMHO. While traveling, I don't have time to find if anyone ever wrote a bio of him, much less research his brother and/or uncle Duncan Walker (who as Mississippi state legislator qualifies for a wikipedia article, hint hint), nor why this Walker supposedly freed slaves the year after his mother's death in Mississippi. Furthermore, the online materials I accessed don't explain the Mexican-American war money scandal, which seemed an focus of this article until recently. That may have been corruption or simply parking of government funds before their expenditure (given President Jackson's hatred of banking and Walker's apparently being trusted on a delicate financial mission during the Civil War).Jweaver28 (talk) 19:40, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

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