Talk:Robert L. Hymers

Untitled
Chris, I do not think it is accurate to say that Hymers has been "attacked" because people think he "holds incorrect doctrines and practices."

To say that is to take a distinctly non-neutral point of view. Like it or not, there are scores of people out there who feel that they were warped for life because of their involvement in Hymers' churches. To suggest that by speaking out, these people are "attacking" him is simply not fair.

I've tried to be "fair and balanced" in my contributions to this entry; please do me the courtesy of stating--correctly--that Hymers is a controversial figure, rather than making him sound like a victim of a "small" group of people.Scooge (talk) 11:33, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Leslie--I am so sorry for what you are going through, but I have not misrepresented anything. I have not even exaggerated anything. In the interests of furthering your career, perhaps you should consider changing your name, or working under a different name? After all, your father is (as they say) a "lightning rod" for controversy, and you might carry less baggage with you in life if you didn't work under the same name as this troubled man. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scooge (talk • contribs) 11:30, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Request by Hymers' son that the article be taken down, because they share the same name:

Removal of prod from article /talk page
Rlh14618 has proposed the article for deletion stating:

"My name is Robert L. Hymers III and I am the eldest son of Robert L. Hymers Jr. I am a Senior tax consultant for Ernst & Young, LLP, as well as a licensed CPA in the state of California. In addition, I am a partner in several entities, which require all of its partners to maintain a good image. As an active member of my father's church, I can attest to the fact that there are several un-factual representations in this article and that the article presents a biased and skewed view of my father. My father's associates have attempted on several occasions to make minor adjustments to reflect the other side of the story, only to have the author of the article quickly change the article back to its original form. As a licensed CPA, professional at a 'Big Four' accounting firm, and partner of several LLC's licensed in the state of California, these misrepresentations have an adverse impact on my image as a professional, as I share the same name as my father. I would like for the editors to allow me to replace this article with my version of my father's life, which would include the entire LA times article referenced in this article in order to achieve Wikipedia's purpose: to disseminate quality information that faithfully represents factual information."

I removed the prod becuase this is not an uncontroversial deletion. I will communicate with the user on his talk page. Xymmax So let it be written   So let it be done  21:09, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Stubbed
I stubbed this article per WP:BLP. I am concerned that most of the references in the article may not qualify as reliable sources under the our guidelines. I understand that several paragraphs purported to be from LA Times was placed in the article, but that too is inappropriate. I actually think that many of the allegations in the article sound familiar, and if they can be sourced - and certainly, the LA Times news reporting is considered to be a reliable source, there is no problem with including them in a manner that does not give any one incident undue weight. I don't think that wayoflife.org or similar websites that deal with doctrine are likely to be considered reliable sources, since their goal is necessarily non-neutral - they are set up for the express purpose of upholding Christian orthodoxy as they perceive it. I don't know if the books quoted are reliable sources or not, perhaps some consensus can be reached here. However, since BLP warns us to do no harm, I erred on the side of stubbing the article for the time being. Xymmax So let it be written   So let it be done  21:50, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Expansion of the biography
I stubbed this article as I mentioned above. Since then, I personally have viewed a number of old LA Times articles that describe some of the subject's activities, primarily during the 1980s. In particular, the subject gained some notoriety for leading prayer vigil for the death of a member of the Supreme Court (the idea being that a spot then be freed up for a justice who did not support legalized abortion). There also is an article that describes the subject's public opposition to the Last Temptation of Christ, and an anti-semitic comment that he made in connection with that, for which he later apologized. Since I believe the consensus is that the LA Times is a reliable source, and the articles confirm the subject's notability, it seems appropriate to open up a discussion as to the best way to expand this biography, and determine how best to mention all the relevant facts. Xymmax So let it be written   So let it be done  18:11, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Creating Inline Citations
Per a request from one of the senior Wiki-Editors here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Shell_Kinney

I'm attempting to bring some of these citations inline, to further clarify which claims are being backed up by which sources.Scooge (talk) 18:55, 30 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Awesome - that will help quite a bit. I added a template in the references section to pull out those inline citations for you and then removed the duplicates.  We still need to do something about the article only being about these incidents.  I'll see what I can do to dig up some other background information and sources to round things out better.

One of Hymers' associates added the "real conversion" URL, but that goes to the same page as the listing we had. I inferred that this was therefore the preferred URL for his page, and substituted it as the link for Hymers' own page that we had, adding the suggested annotation that the site contains all his sermons going back to the year 2000. I assume this was the correct way to handle that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scooge (talk • contribs) 06:27, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Merge
Kdl4082, which appears to be a new account, created a rival article at R. L. Hymers, Jr. That article offers a more positive treatment of the subject, with far more biographical information. Most of the controversies here are mentioned there, although all of the sources here are not present. I have proposed that this article and that article be merged. I actually think that the other article is closer to being a complete biography, and will be easier to bring to NPOV. Accordingly, I propose that this be merged there. In order to keep the discussion in one place, please make comments at that article's talk page. Xymmax So let it be written   So let it be done  15:47, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

R.L.Hymers a better biography
The rlhymers site is better written than this one. It addresses the controversies one by one with a neutral point of view —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.208.226.137 (talk) 10:44, 1 August 2008 (UTC)