Talk:Robert Larner College of Medicine

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Requested move 3 October 2016

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Not Moved Mike Cline (talk) 23:32, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Robert Larner College of Medicine → ? – The University of Vermont College of Medicine was recently (9/23/2016) renamed "The Robert Larner, M.D. College of Medicine at The University of Vermont". I have personally attempted to reflect this change in the title of the respective article twice, but have both times been rebuffed on the basis of the "The" and "Honorific" article naming policies. I do not believe the "Honorific" policy is appropriate, as the title of the article is intended to reflect the legal name of the organization in question, which was recently officially changed. Similarly, I do not believe the "The" policy should stand, as the name is explicitly written as such on the school's official website (http://www.uvm.edu/medicine; e.g. "As the 7th oldest medical school in the nation, The Robert Larner, M.D. College of Medicine has a longstanding reputation for educating and training superb physicians and scientists, fostering groundbreaking research to improve patients' lives, and actively engaging with the community of Vermont and the region."). I thus request that the article be parmanently moved to the new location of "The Robert Larner, M.D. College of Medicine" or "The Robert Larner, M.D. College of Medicine at The University of Vermont. Adeez (talk) 02:57, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose per mu comments to you. We don't use "WP:THE" (see University of Texas at Austin and Ohio State University), we don't use "WP:HONORIFICS", which leads me to WP:OFFICIALNAME. We don't always use the "official name" for certain reasons. I'll ping who can give better reason than I. Corkythe  hornetfan  (ping me) 03:48, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Corkythehornetfan covered those objections well enough, though WP:COMMONNAME is probably the main reason to not move this. In short, the fact that a long, official name exist for something exists does not mean WP must or should use it.  See, e.g., Rhode Island versus the official The State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, and United Kingdom vs. the official The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. In this case, the subject is almost always referred to by the name "Robert Larner College of Medicine" (or an even shorter form, in contexts in which the meaning is clear, like "Larner College of Medicine", even just "Larner" depending on how insider the context is). Trying to move this to the long-winded and excessively detailed name is exactly the kind of WP:OFFICIALNAME argument that we routinely reject.  The purpose of WP article titles is  "to reflect the legal name" of this or anything else.  See WP:AT policy. The purpose of our article titles is to be concise, natural not forced, recognizable, and just precise enough to identify the topic (there are not two different Robert Larner medical schools that we need to disambiguate).  "Robert Larner, M.D. College of Medicine" isn't even grammatical (a comma used this way, to form a parenthetical, requires a second one to close it).  We just had a Village Pump RfC back in Feb. that resulted in the MOS:JR rule to not use ", Jr." but just "Jr." in names by default, and (the relevant part here) to use ", Jr., " with matching commas, in the rare case that comma usage is retained.  Using the one-comma error here would turn that decision on its ear, for no reason other than to mimic a misspelling in a document from an institution that should know better.  WP:THE applies in all cases except the rare instance that a leading "The" is almost universally used in reliable sources for the subject in question (e.g. The Hague but not "the" Crimea, a usage that fell out of fashion about two generations ago).  A large number of educational institutions put "The" at the start of their names, but sources do not consistently follow suit, so we do not impose that promotional grandstanding on our readers, either.  Not to mention that using "M.D." rather than "MD" is an old style that fell out of favor in ca. the 1980s in the US and much earlier elsewhere. The "Jr." thing actually is relevant in another ways. There are a large number of roadways named after Martin Luther King Jr. (most major US cities have one). Per WP:COMMONNAME they are found at articles with short names like Martin Luther King Jr. Parkway (Jacksonville) when we have articles on them (mostly they are covered at List of streets named after Martin Luther King Jr.. But if you actually dig around in city records, you'll find that the full official name of many of these things is something like "Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., Parkway", yet you will not find sources typically using the long form, nor even street signs doing so. In short: Use what readers expect, not what subjects try to project.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  05:28, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose. What do you suppose its common name is going to remain? -- Necrothesp (talk) 17:24, 5 October 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.