Talk:Robert Louis Stevenson/Archive 1

old comments
What to do about gobbledygook near Treasure Island? --Daniel C. Boyer

You can't just look up something in Project Gutenberg and cut and paste the link. If you do, you end up with a dog's dinner like something this (broken into two lines for "readability"):

http://promo.net/cgi-promo/pg/t9.cgi?entry=120&full=yes &ftpsite=ftp://ibiblio.org/pub/docs/books/gutenberg/

The wiki software can use it to link, but apparently wiki can't get rid of all the excess characters no matter how much you try to mark it up. However, if you edit the link down to this

http://promo.net/cgi-promo/pg/t9.cgi?entry=120

wiki takes you to the same place but is clean.

There are several forms available, use "edit this page" to look at the coding:
 * Enclose the bare URL in single brackets:
 * Treasure Island Project Gutenberg text:


 * Enclose URL in single brackets, but after the URL leave a space and add explanatory text before the closing bracket:
 * Project Gutenberg text: Treasure Island


 * Simply run the URL in text without any brackets:
 * Treasure Island from Project Gutenberg -- http://promo.net/cgi-promo/pg/t9.cgi?entry=120

The last form is not desirable, but since you see that kind of URL in the wikipedia all the time, I thought I should show it too. I always edit them out, usually to the second style, when I find them. Ortolan88 19:53 Jul 29, 2002 (PDT)

The link to the book Kidnapped goes to the page about kidnappings.

Category:People who have altered their own name
Im not too personally invested one way or another if this Cat stays or goes, but im just curious what the rationale is to call it "God aweful".. what's wrong with it? It's pretty non offensive, a neutral observation of fact (I assume). --Stbalbach 22:19, 12 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Never mind just read the "Category for deletion page", seems like a reasonable argument. --Stbalbach 22:22, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Biography Source
The biography recently added was taken from James Cloyd Bowman (1918) (listed in references) with copyediting. -- Stbalbach 03:05, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for expanding the article. Stevenson is one of my favourite 19th-century English novelists, alongside Dickens, Austen and Wells. It's been a great pleasure reading the bio. --Ghirla -трёп- 14:40, 10 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks, me too. I came across it while researching for The Annotated 'Travels with a Donkey in the Cévennes' on Wikisource (in case you were interested!). --Stbalbach 16:52, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Can something be added about Aes Triplex?

Henry James and Vladimir Nabokov
In my edit notes I said this was mentioned in the article body, but it's not, my mistake. But this is well known common knowledge, he was friends with these people, any Stevenson biography will have it, I don't think we need to footnote every common knowledge fact. -- Stbalbach 14:16, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Heh, you got in just ahead of me. I added the tag as part of a copyedit. I'll try to source it as I have never heard it before, not that I don't believe you of course, just that the article will be stronger if this key fact relating to his importance is sourced. I'll leave it there meantime though. --Guinnog 14:18, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok, I added a link to google books (great resource). -- Stbalbach 15:32, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Stevenson and Children's Literature
I certainly didn't mean to imply that Stevenson wrote only children's books. However, he did write some books that were read by children in his day, and still are today. In the same way that Kipling wrote books for children, but also wrote many volumes of short stories for adults (in his early years). The same can be said for other writers on that template--Charlotte Yonge, Thomas Hughes, George MacDonald, and Lewis Carroll--they all had varied outputs which included children's books. (OUP, for example, advertises Treasure Island, and Kidnapped/Catriona in the children's literature section of The World's Classics and Dr.J/Mr. H and the Weir of Hermiston in the regular (adult) section.)

The point of the template is to provide a larger 19th century context for someone reading Stevenson. By becoming aware of that context, that reader will likely find Stevenson even more wonderful, as anyone who has read both Coral Island (Ballantyne) and Treasure Island knows. (In the case of Treasure Island, this context is even more pertinant, since Stevenson himself mentions Kingston and Ballantyne in his introductory poem, "To the Hesistating Purchaser.")

Perhaps I could change the title of the template to: "The world of 19th century British children's literature," (although that sounds wordy). Alternately, I could put asterisks against the names of writers like Stevenson, Carroll, Kipling etc. and mention that they are not primarily children's authors. If you have any other suggestions, please let me know. Template or not, I don't think anyone who reads Stevenson, even his "children's books," (for example, anyone who works through the Scots in Kidnapped and is moved by the beauty of the writing) comes away thinking that Stevenson is a mere children's author. Look forward to hearing from you.

Sanjay Tiwari 02:12, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I'm not a big fan of nav templates in general - that is what we have categories for - I could think of 10 templates this article could have and it would look like a mess. Templates should be used very carefully and not be giant portals that take up tons of article space. For RLS he in particular has been disparaged and disregarded from serious scholarship as a "kids author" for most of the 20th century - there is an active scholarship movement to rescue him from that stereotype and regain his status as a serious author (see the section in the article that discusses this) - this template just re-enforces his status as a kids author and turns back the clock - it also shows that Wikipedia is behind the times and not up to date with the most recent scholarship. Templates are optional and we have better more standard tools for categorizing articles. I'm not going to put it up for a Template For Deletion, or even that RLS should not be included in the template, but I do think the template should not be in this article. -- Stbalbach 15:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I am the one who reverted the de-classification of Stevenson as a children's author. I never use nav templates and I don't know anything about your tempest here, or your teapot.  I reverted it because it is plain silly to say that the author of A Child's Garden of Verse, Kidnapped, and Treasure Island, three of the most beloved children's books of all time, is not a children's author.  No amount of "modern scholarship" will change that, and you don't increase Stevenson's reputation by downplaying his accomplishments.  Best regards, Ortolan88 16:37, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what revert your talking about, and I think you misunderstand the issue. Look, I don't care, call him a children's author, he is in proper context, there are other views to balance and keep it in context, that's how Wikipedia works. But if your going to put a giant colored banner template calling him a children's author, there is no recourse or balance. Stevenson is recognized today as a serious author in the same league as a Hemingway or Conrad and pigeonholing him as a childrens author (or genre author) is not longer considered accurate by literary scholarship. We use current academic sources at Wikipedia. -- Stbalbach 17:01, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Are you going to huff and puff until you blow my house down? Ortolan88 17:39, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Dear Stbalbach, I'm the guy who created the nav template. OK, fair enough, I can understand that in an overly long article a template at the end might be too much, and I agree too that it might create the impression (in the absence of other templates) that Stevenson is a genre author. So, how about the following compromise. I will add the template and the Category: 19th century British children's literature to the pages of Stevenson's "children's" books: A Child's Garden of Verses, Kidnapped, Catriona, and Treasure Island. I have added a cautionary note and footnotes. How does that sound?

Sanjay Tiwari 02:13, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Have added the template to those books, so that you can see what they look like. Sanjay Tiwari 12:06, 21 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok fair enough. Thanks for the compromise, Sanjay. -- Stbalbach 14:58, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Woolf
In the part talking about how Virginia Woolf and others disapproved of Stevenson... why was this so? What did he do to make them despise him? His work is good. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 60.50.23.221 (talk • contribs).
 * Nothing personal. After WWI the modernist movement began, which was defined by a rejection of the past, in particular the couple generations that came before. The modernists did a lot of experimental work. Part of being a modernist was disparaging the older authors. Interestingly, there is renewed interest such that today you can find new novels written as if they were written by someone in the 19th century - correct grammar, outlooks, vocabulary etc.. someone did Ahab's Wife recently retelling the story of Captain Ahab's wife from Moby Dick as if it was written in the 1800s. -- Stbalbach 23:29, 30 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Also, it is sometimes the case that mediocrity hates talent.Lestrade 03:17, 8 January 2007 (UTC)Lestrade

I removed the last sentences about 'narrow definition of literature' because it was POV with no citation. Also removed the part about his entering the 'canon.' —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.130.61.155 (talk • contribs).


 * It is accurate. The Lead section is just a summary of the article, there are not supposed to be footnotes or citations in the lead section - see the main article for supporting. -- Stbalbach 14:36, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

some praise
John Sutherland writes in The Guardian, "I recently edited a novel of Robert Louis Stevenson's - The Black Arrow. It's historical and regional. The Wikipedia entries for Stevenson are superb. They must, I suspect, have been done by an enthusiastic, omniscient Stevensonian - the kind of amateur scholar who used, in the past, to secrete their knowledge in columns such as Notes and Queries. Why, other than for a love of the subject, anyone would spend such a vast amount of time to prepare these entries, without any expectation of reward or name recognition, I don't know. But I'm profoundly grateful. And I cite it." - BanyanTree 18:21, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Photographs etc. from Samoa
Vailima is a couple of kilometres from where I live. Recently, I added a photograph of RLS's tomb and edited the information on where it is. If anyone wants me to take a specific photograph, or try to get any information from the museum here then please make a request on my talk page. I do have a photograph showing the view of the house from his tomb but it is not all that stunning as it does not show the tomb. I would need to carry a ladder up the hill to get them both in frame and I am not about to do that! Anyway, let me know if you have any requests for this page. --CloudSurfer 10:17, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

proposed new link
I'd like to add a link like: to the External Links:Sources section. This links to a list of Stevenson works that you can download to read on a cell phone. I have read quite a few from this site and got a lot of value out being able to read the PD texts away from the PC.
 * Free to read on a cell phone - Stevenson works.

The texts are Public Domain in the US, just like Project Gutenberg, they are packaged with the reader and available under a creative commons licence (share if (attribution, non-commercial, no derivative) ). The site is non-commercial without registration, subscription, or advertising. The texts as packaged together with the reader as a java program that runs on cell phones, this is a way for people to access the authors work that adds to the range in the existing external links (hopefully translating to more reading going on).

I checked WP:EL and the link seems appropriate: Filomath 12:56, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
 * What should be linked: '...should link to a site hosting a copy of the work if none of the "Links normally to be avoided" criteria apply.'
 * Links normally to be avoided: it seems only #8 might apply; 'Direct links to documents that require external applications (such as Flash or Java) to view the relevant content...'. The site lets you download java programs that only run on a J2ME environment, this means most/all current cell phones. So although they are limited to being read on a phone they do add an access method to all the others in the existing External Links, in the same way that LibriVox adds a format but requires an mp3 player.

Citation style
I've added this template because most of the article supposedly has no references. Then, if you happen to look at one specific reference, it randomally says there are no referenecs because ("Unless otherwise noted...") it is taken from James Cloyd Bowman, without even saying who he is, what does he have to do with and what makes it reliable if it is just a one's man view.

The way it is now, it is not clear what is taken from a source and what is original research. Even if this was not what the original editor meant, newer editors could add whatever they want and readers would automatically assume it is from James Cloyd Bowman, whose info about is not even linked and thus unverifiable. -Lwc4life 11:51, 10 October 2007 (UTC)


 * This is true in any article. If one really needs to know, just do a history diff. Many articles on Wikipedia are sourced to an original document (Encyclopedia Britannica) with additions/changes made - don't need to source every line when the majority of the article is from a single source. If over time that changes then I agree we need to add citations, but right now it is not the case, it's all in the history record. -- 71.191.131.7 (talk) 15:34, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

What????????? Jan 08

Accuracy of Wikipedia
This is really not dependent. Because we dont know what information is true & whats not. You quys should improve what you can do on Wikipeda. Its too many people on here that are qivinq people bad qrades because the information on here is not acurate or is not correct.

But other information on here is riqht but if you do post somethinq on this wikipeda then you should have an account with them. Or be a teacher somewhere or have some kind of form of smarts in this area. Nd should`nt just be any body puttinq information uhp. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.129.127.41 (talk) 17:24, 13 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I am surprised that your teachers allow you to use Wikipedia as a source for essays. Caveat lector!  Any encyclopedia is a tertiary source and as such should be used to get an overview and point you towards sources closer to the original. RLS's letters are a primary source, a scholarly article or popular biography is a secondary source.  Use Wikipedia to set you on the right path towards knowledge, but do not rely on it, or any one source, as infallible.  Having said that, see the praise heaped on this article by the Guardian journalist above. Good luck! (I am taking the liberty of changing the title of this thread, as this whole page is about RLS.) BrainyBabe (talk) 13:25, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

His support for other writers
I've come across one example. It seems trivial on its own, and I can't see where to put it, except with his death details, which gives it undue weight. But surely there must be other demonstrations of his support for junior writers? It would be good to have a section on his influences, and those he influenced and helped. This is what I found, from the introduction to the 1965 Everyman's Library edition of the one-volume The Prisoner of Zenda and Rupert of Hentzau by Anthony Hope.
 *  dying suddenly in distant Samoa, left an unfinished letter on his desk congratulating Hope on his "very spirited and gallant little book".

i.e. the adventure novel Zenda, which had been published in April 1894. How can this be integrated? BrainyBabe (talk) 13:18, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm, the quotation might be added to the Anthony Hope article, which already mentions the fact that Stevenson (among others) praised Zenda. I can't really see making it a point to add to writers' articles information about all the other writers they may have praised or encouraged. In most cases, there would be so many that the topic would take on undue prominence in the context of the articles. Deor (talk) 22:35, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree that in the RLS article as it stands it would be too much, but I do think in principle that a way of indicating who the author was influenced by, and who they influenced (which goes in the author box) could well be complemented by a way of indicating who had supported the developing author, and who the author in question had supported later. It shows not only their generosity, but also their literary taste.  How could we work that in?  BrainyBabe (talk) 23:14, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, I'm opposed to those infobox fields, too, since entries in them are essentially meaningless without explanation and clarification that there's no room to give. Perhaps you should wait for input from some less curmudgeonly Wikipedian. Deor (talk) 23:28, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Not into the infobox, but into the article itself. More examples, more weight, mroe flesh to the article. BrainyBabe (talk) 23:39, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Vailima - origin of the word
Vailima, like many Samoan words, can be seen to have various meanings. Vai can mean water or river. Lima can mean hand or five. The article currently says it means "Five Rivers". However, there are not five rivers anywhere near Vailima, only one river and a small creek actually in the Vailima property. The name more likely comes from the nearby village and it is usual for Samoans to locate places by naming the village. This village is reputed to be named after a legend about a couple crossing the island of Upolu. When they reached where Vailima village is now, the man was nearly dying of thirst. The woman used the palms of her hands to fetch water from a nearby stream from which her husband drank. I have not changed the article given that there may be citations to justify the "Five Rivers" name. However, living here in Samoa, I have never heard this suggestion before. --CloudSurfer (talk) 19:06, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Living in Samoa myself too, I have changed it now as it (Five Waters) clearly is not true. The Journal of Pacific History http://www.jstor.org/pss/25168472 even gives a reference to a collection of Samoan Tales, including the origin of Vailima. Counting waterways is not Samoan way at all. --Werner Kappus (talk) 23:11, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Copyright violation
The biographical part has been copied from a text by Stephen Balbach (who mentioned the fact he himself borrowed from James Cloyd Bowman: Luminarium. I have mentioned it on the copyright problems page. I'll keep adding the references to the quotations, cause rewriters can build around them. --Marianika (talk) 15:49, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi. The material was here before it was there. Luminarium states it was created on 12 May 2007. On 10 May 2007, the article looked like this. You can witness its natural evolution here and here. The problem seems to be that Stephen Balback (possibly User:Stbalbach, who contributed to the development of this article) is claiming authorship, when this article has been contributed to by a number of different editors. The line about Chesterton, for instance, was added here. The Bowman reference was published before 1923, and so it should be in the public domain in the U.S. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 03:00, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Just for later reference, I'll state here that the majority of this article was lifted straight from Bowman. While it should be out of copyright, this raises citation questions. (I think, anyway.) For instance, the unsourced quotation about the Weir of Hermiston comes from Bowman. ("It's so good that it frightens me.") So, is Bowman's use of this a good enough citation for Stevenson having been "reported" to have said it, or do we need whatever source Bowman used (if any)? It would be strange to cite Bowman, because it would, in effect, be the same text citing itself.

The piece by James Cloyd Bowman can be seen here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=YbMNAAAAYAAJ&pg=PR16&lpg=PR16&dq=#PPR9,M1

The Luizer (talk) 21:02, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * There was a note (as in the Luminarium page) saying that any unsourced details came from Bowman. I took it out because I'm trying to go through and provide references for each statement (or within a few sentences so as not to overwhelm the text) and to respected biographies, rather than some introduction.  I've only got up to the end of his engineering studies so far.  There were several errors in the account that far and I can see more in the coming text: I don't know whether they come from Bowman or his adaptor, as I'm in Europe and google books won't let me see a 1918 book. N p holmes (talk) 06:57, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

If it would help you, I could post the text here. First, though, try copying this link into your address bar. It probably won't work, but hey. The Luizer (talk) 20:11, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=YbMNAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=travels+with+a+donkey&as_brr=3&rview=1#PPR9,M1
 * Thanks: that doesn't work, but I've seen the text now via archive.org. At first glance at least, I don't think it's an appropriate source. N p holmes (talk) 15:32, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Article on Béranger for Britannica
In the list of his works, I thought it should be noted that Stevenson wrote an article on Pierre Jean de Béranger for Encyclopaedia Britannica. The page is semi-protected, and I am not currently established enough as a user to make this change. Bob Burkhardt (talk) 12:36, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Added, under "Other works" in the bibliography. Deor (talk) 12:59, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Requiem
Requiem is one of the most widely misquoted works in the English language -- most cites have it read, "Home is the sailor, home from THE sea" (emphasis added), with the capitalized "THE" being added incorrectly.

It is actually misquoted as above on his tomb which gives rise to my question -- the version given in the article is the way RLS wrote it, but not the way it appears on the tomb. Is this not worthy of comment? Jameslwoodward (talk) 14:33, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Alison Cunningham
The name "Cummy" was removed by an IP and again by a registered user with the justification "snicker-inducing nickname not really important". Fear of the reaction of schoolchildren is an absurd motivation here. Whether it is important or not can be argued: Wikipedia would be the only biography I know of that didn't mention it, and people consulting the article who have found casual mentions to "Cummy" in Stevenson literature will be cheated, if it's not explained. So I'm restoring it again. N p holmes (talk) 06:32, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Was Treasure Island real?
I saw a documentary on Robert Louis Stevenson and near the end the argument was made that he had accumulated such a fortune that his literary works alone could not have possibly amounted to what he left behind and that Treasure Island might have been real and that Robert Louis Stevenson might have plundered it him self. Other than that documentary I cant find any other articals that document this or even drop the hint but, it dose make me wonder. 06\23\09


 * See buried treasure - in real life, buried pirate treasure is mostly a myth except for one or two incidents that marginally might be called buried treasure. Think about it - why would a pirate leave money behind where he can't use it? Pirates didn't live very long. But it makes for great stories including on TV ;) Green Cardamom (talk) 19:06, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

A Swiss author (Alex Capus) wrote a novel of fictional history (and called it a 'speculation') that Stevenson's Treasure Island had been the neighboring Tongan island of Tafahi. Complete fiction all over, no doubt - but it motivated media teams from all over the world to come to Samoa for 'documentation' of the nonsense. At least a good reason for a trip to the South Pacific though. Everyone found out that Tafahi is virtually unreachable, especially from Samoa, so they all gave it up.;-)--Werner Kappus (talk) 23:40, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

New RLS website
Apologies as a new user if I'm in the 'wrong' area but this page has a protection I've not come across before. Today (Friday 13, 2009) a new RLS website was launched [ http://www.robert-louis-stevenson.org ] and this should be included in the External Links section. DBHutchison (talk) 14:10, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks to be a good addition, but I have a question: Is this site intended to supersede Richard Dury's site (the first link under "Misc"), since in the "RLS Archive" section it seems to include in some fashion the material on Dury's site? Basically, what I want to know is whether the new link should just be added to the list or should replace the current link to http://dinamico2.unibg.it/rls/rls.htm. Deor (talk) 14:29, 13 November 2009 (UTC)