Talk:Robert Maxwell/Archives/2013

Maybe some mention of the massive Mirror pension scandal?
Barely gets a sentence.

Unbalanced beyond belief
This is the most unbalanced article in the Wikiverse. It needs editing by someone who understands that he was somewhat less than perfect. Bill Ellis (talk) 17:07, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Conspiracy theory?
needs to be de-conspiracy theoried Philip 18:46, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

now it doesnt

POV & fact (1)
That Maxwell was a corporate crook is a legally proved and universally acknowledged fact, not a "POV." I have reinstated my original wording. Adam 09:00, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * It's almost certain to my mind that he was all these things, but reading the article it struck me that it wasn't NPOV to say so, only to report that substantial evidence was uncovered to make it highly probable. I mean, the man was never tried much less convicted, surely there is a more neutral way to present the facts. --AladdinSE 04:19, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)

Nor was Hitler, and for the same reason. Maxwell's crimes were clearly established after his death, and they can and should be stated as fact. Adam 04:25, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * I wonder whether that's true: that his crimes were clearly established. Was the use of the pension funds illegal at the time? I know it is now, but I got the impression the law was tightened after the Maxwell case. Chances are that Maxwell intended the move to be very temporary, but then died; and whether he could have done anything to save the situation is, I know, debatable, because he was in such debt. But I think Aladdin has a point: a criminal is someone with a criminal record. We could let the facts speak for themselves rather than label him. SlimVirgin (talk) 07:29, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)


 * I think that's correct. Rich Farmbrough 12:58 16  May 2006 (UTC).


 * Some of Maxwell's plundering of the pension fund was legal, and some of his misuse of funds could be said to occupy a grey area, since he had blurred the distinction between his own money and other peoples, and the interests of his own companies, and those that he was in control of but didn't own outright - he repeatedly transferred money back and forth between his own private companies and others as an elaborate "shell game". But eventually this wasn't enough, and he resorted to actual criminal fraud. He eventually raised money by mortgaging assets that he didn't actually own, and misrepresenting their ownership. That was actual criminal fraud. ErkDemon 01:34, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

It was very common at the time for companies to use pension fund money to bridge company finances. The comparison to Hitler is outrageous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.127.7.58 (talk) 13:08, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Lady Ghislaine
For general interest, here's a link to a photo of Lady Ghislaine, Maxwell's yacht at the time, now renamed Lady Mona K. Not sure if it should appear on Maxwell's page. Lady Mona K


 * It would be intersesting to have an arrow pinpointing where the arthritic 22 stone Maxwell was standing when he 'fell' into the sea. If the railings were neck or chest high he would have had to be as fit as Tarzan to hurl himself over.
 * --Rolec Dubbing (talk) 15:33, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Photos were in the papers at the time. Waist height I seem to remember. Rich Farmbrough, 10:54, 20 November 2009 (UTC).

Oooh

 * Ooh, nice yacht. Why rename it from Ghislaine to Mona K though? Was Maxwell an idiot as well as a crook?
 * Ghislaine is Maxwell's daughter. Mona K was the name used by a subsequent owner. Rich Farmbrough, 10:55, 20 November 2009 (UTC).

As a character in a James Bond film
I have removed the following on two occasions as it is unsubstantiated and not particularly significant:


 * The Johnathan Pryce chacter [sic] Elliot Carver in the James Bond move [sic] Tommorow Never Dies is based on Maxwell, William Randolf Hearst and Ruppurt Murdoch.

The article on the movie does suggest Maxwell though, and adds Bill Gates in to the mix for good measure, but as part of the article it does seem to be unnecessary clutter. The plot summary (in the character profile) does suggest that Maxwell was a somewhat minor inspiration over the others. Philip Cross 21:37, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Place of birth
Please don't keep putting back wrong information

Someone keeps deleting my edits on Maxwell and it's getting very annoying. You should know what you are doing or not do it at all. Two of you, one person is is a high school student named Jorge, keep reinserting the notion that Maxwell was born in Slovakia. Please study your geography before you play with these things. As I tried to put in the correction, Maxwell's home town is in Zakarpattiya, a province which I know extensively from personal travel and my work at the U.S. Embassy in Ukraine. It was NEVER part of Slovakia and is 160 KM SE of the closest point on the Slovak border. The correct notation for the province is Subcarpathian Ruthenia or Ruthenia to refer to the 1920-1938 province of Czechoslovakia. Please read your history books or the Wikipedia article on the subject. Don't make your readers think that the people who contribute these articles are a bunch of know-nothings.


 * One of the people you complain about is myself. All I can do is apologize for an unjustified revert. Philip Cross
 * Slatinské Doly was the official name in the 1930s and the village is now part of Solotvino (together with Selo Slatina, a former name was also Akna Slatina). Cf. http://encyklopedie.seznam.cz/heslo/435106-slatinske-doly for example. --murli 18:45, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

My edit
I added that he was an MP in the opening as he is probably the only MP we have an article for and this isnt in the opening, and also that he was Czechoslovakian in the opening, unquestionably true where just to call him British is inaccurate POV, SqueakBox 21:28, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Twat head Maxwell?
I am loathe to edit an article I know so little about, but is this phrase correct? cojoco 02:37, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

"Nevertheless, writs were swiftly issued by Mirror Group Solicitors on instruction from twat head Maxwell,"

Needs work - questions

 * 1) References!
 * 2) Maxwell's empire - the holding companies, the Stiffungs, the pension funds, Pergamon Press
 * 3) Numbers and values - how much was owed to which banks, what was pledged, etc.
 * 4) After death - I would be interested to know how much was spent on accountants, lawyers, investigations etc.
 * 5) What was the final shortfall on the pension funds?  440 m was "missing" 276m was recovered (by suing professionals?) and £100m was donated by the taxpayer.  What other assets were there? Was 440m part of a 4bn fund or a 441m fund (ISTR 2 main funds one of about 600m?)
 * 6) What property did M mortgage illegally (see above) - who lent the money? how much? did they get it back?

Rich Farmbrough, 11:05, 20 November 2009 (UTC).

There was a House of Common select committee investigation into Maxwell's looting of the Mirror pension funds. Perhaps the findings of that can be incorporated. As it stands, it is ludicrous that the article says almost nothing about the pension funds, which was perhaps Maxwell's greatest scandal of all. 93.96.236.8 (talk) 15:37, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Albeit I have no Wiki-citations (only personal records) about these circumstances, I personally visited the Mirror offices in Fleet Street, (concerning an article &c), which was received by Alastair Campbell & Robert Maxwell (& Peter Mandelson) at that time. Although I cannot recall the exact date (C1989/90), their archives were (coincidentally) raided by the police the day after my visit. However, I do recall that Peter Walker was one of the select committee, who accessed the (Mirror) computer-archives in these pension enquiries.

POV & fact (2)
Whilst it is true that Robert Maxwell's suspicious death did indeed spare him from trial and thus leave open the question of his guilt, his brokers, Goldman Sachs and Lehman, were not so lucky. They're huge payments to the pension companies were the result of court cases against them for complicity in Maxwell's acts of fraud. Using pension fund money to bridge company finances was unethical at least. Robert Maxwell however went further than this and bankrupted pension funds via a network of shell companies to manipulate the stock prices of companies with misrepresented earnings. ("The Partnership: The Making of Goldman Sachs", Charles D. Ellis, Ch.25 - Robert Maxwell the client from Hell) The view that Robert Maxwell is deliberately deceived the public, misappropriated funds and behaved unethically is a consensus held by the UK DTI, Goldman Sachs, and a number of other reputable institutions. He escapes the definition of a crook primarily by virtue of his death prior to trial. This article is clearly biased in favor of Maxwell in a most suspicious manner. Mauricepp (talk) 12:51, 19 April 2012 (UTC)


 * You are a new editor here, so welcome. Other editors tend to find statements of opinion on talk pages rather objectionable, but comments about articles are perfectly welcome. (I was trying to remove your comments before I looked at your edit history.) As you have access to what looks like a reliable source making use of it in changes to the article are perfectly acceptable, but so may subsequent alterations to what you include. Philip Cross (talk) 13:12, 19 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I forgot to note that is normal practice to open a new section when an old one has remained in suspension for some time. Philip Cross (talk) 13:19, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Protection
Would this article be a good candidate for PC1 protection?:
 * save repeated semi-protection
 * low edit rate
 * long-term IP/new editor vandalism
 * 1 year (arguably indefinite)? Widefox ; talk 14:24, 28 May 2013 (UTC)


 * seems like a good idea to me. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:09, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Protecting admin is fine with it User_talk:NawlinWiki
 * Proposed Widefox ; talk 22:22, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * ✅ Widefox ; talk 19:56, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Other names

 * Abraham Lalji Hoch and Labji Hoch are two other names Maxwell might have used.
 * He had about five names. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.181.10.231 (talk) 15:07, 30 December 2013 (UTC)