Talk:Robert Rayford

Untitled
It should be made clear if they tested Robert's body for HIV, as AIDS can be caused by other conditions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.169.169.1 (talk) 20:35, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Are you insinuating that HIV doesn't cause AIDS? There is overwhelming medical evidence that it does. Conspiracy theories != truth. Floaterfluss (talk) (contribs) 00:51, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Lack of verifiable sources
Whoever wrote this article doesn't seem to have any scientific sources, but makes a few leaps, such as saying that certain Westerns have a history of false positives. I'm also a little concerned about the outright speculation within the article, such as "today it is thought he was homosexual," which, according to all of the sources listed, just isn't cited at all. 142.157.214.100 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 13:46, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

This is impossible
If he was born in 1954 and began experiencing the symptoms of AIDS as early as 1966, then that means that he was 12 years old. As far as I know, people that young don't have sex. There is obviously a problem here, I think the dates might've been muddled up. 203.184.11.237 (talk) 10:27, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

He had Pre-AIDS or HIV Disease as early as 1966. He presented with AIDS in early 1968 and died in May, 1969. Kaposi's Sarcoma is transmitted by sex or french-kissing. Obviously, medical science tells us he was infected between 1957 and 1961. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.196.148.19 (talk) 19:18, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

It is quite apparent that since the average window between infection and AIDS is eight to ten years, Robert R. was a victim of molestation at a very young age. As it is, he died at fifteen. (Daviddaniel37) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Daviddaniel37 (talk • contribs) 06:08, 7 April 2008 (UTC)


 * You're post-hoc epicycling. There's no evidence that he was molested at a young age. When you add to that that this is a curious single case, years before the epidemic, out in the middle of nowhere, it is more likely that the diagnosis is wrong. If it was AIDS, the person who infected him must have been HIV+ in the 1950s! Why didn't this infector cause a cluster of other AIDS cases?82.71.30.178 (talk) 00:36, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

The infector was likely his grandfather (Percy--1910-1966) or uncle (Gene--1934-1971).

Old cases of AIDS were not discovered because they died of pneumonia, tuberculosis, or other diseases without anyone knowing about AIDS. In addition, there have been 200 cases of agressive Kaposi's Sarcoma between 1870 and 1970 in Europe and the United States. There weren't identified clusters, because it wasn't until the sexual revolution, the increase in IV drug use, a great increase in world travel and the sex trade, that AIDs took off from a the few small pockets in large cities to a world-wide pandemic. --Daviddaniel37 (User talk:Daviddaniel37) 10:45, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Post-hoc what? If a boy dies from an AIDS-Defining Opportunistic Infection (ADOI) at the age of fifteen, he got it when he was five to seven years old, if you know anything about the progression of AIDS. The eveidence he was molested at a young age is that he died of AIDS at the age of fifteen or sixteen. — Preceding unsigned --Daviddaniel37 (User talk:Daviddaniel37) 10:45, 2 December 2011 (UTC)


 * I find it curious that, given that Robert R.'s grandfather reportedly suffered from the same symptoms, no one anywhere has remarked on the possibility that his grandfather was infected with HIV and had been sexually abusing Robert R., thus transmitting the virus to him. Given the data that exists, this seems like a highly plausible explanation for how Robert R. acquired the disease.  From what's been documented, it does not seem as though Robert R. was particularly forthcoming or talkative with respect to his sexual history or much else, which only reinforces (for me, at least) this notion. --TheGreatUnsolved (talk) 10:14, 15 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree it's curious and has a right to be questioned. I think the best question to ask in regards to this, simply is: Was Robert R.'s grandfather HIV+ as well or could he have been suffering from symptoms mistaken for being simlar to his grandson.  When someone shows symptoms of something, it could be a number of different things.  If two people puke, it doesn't mean they're suffering from the same thing—one person could've had too much to drink, the other could have the flu.  Terrible example; but you see my point… similar symptoms can be mistaken as "the same symptoms'—nothing has been proven.  Furthermore, HIV could've been transmitted another way besides sexually; what if Robert R.'s grandfather cut himself badly and Robert R. helped him and blood got into an open wound of his?  It's happened.  But you're right that they should research what they can about the grandfather.  Geeky Randy (talk) 22:36, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

It has become extremely likely, as Robert Rayford's grandfather, Percy Rayford, died March 1966 at the age of 55 with similar symptoms, that Percy gave it to Robert. This is not speculation. It is likely, as there is the average of ten years to develop AIDS and a year-and-a-half years more to die, that Percy got it around the summer of 1954. He would have molested Robert about 1958, 1959, or 1960 at the latest if Robert was a fast progressor. Robert had no blood transfusion, and never left the state.--Daviddaniel37 (User talk:Daviddaniel37) 13:00, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Another possibility is that he got it from his mother at birth. D O N D E groovily  Talk to me  17:39, 13 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Unlikely. His mother was still alive in the late 1980s (and available for a television interview).  So, I doubt she'd have survived with the disease for 30+ years. TheGreatUnsolved (talk) 12:47, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Doubts about diagnosis
Why "Doubts about diagnosis" section was deleted? It seems to me that the arguments were solid. The analysis give false positive still today, and the existence of an AIDS-case in 1968 is quite incongruous with the history of the AIDS's diffusion (why infection struck a single subject in the middle of the USA and no other persons still the beginning of the '80s? When he was exposed, if latency time by his length reduces so much the sexual contagion hypothesis?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.21.82.63 (talk) 11:07, 17 July 2008 (UTC)


 * No one knew what they were diagnosing at the time. They dug up the cases of Sadayo Fujisawa (Canada, 1945), Richard Edwin Grave (1952), Ardouin Antonio (1959), Anre Vidar Roed (1976), and Robert Rayford 91969). Robert's grandfather and grandmother had AIDS-like symptoms. They were not in the middle of nowhere. There were likely hundreds of misdiagnosed people with unusual symptoms that no doctor could figure out. I found a number of suspicious caes in St. Louis among the death certificates. Physicians remembered Robert Rayford and Ardouin Antonio and Arvid Darre Noe ot they wouldn't have investigated them. Daviddaniel37 (talk) 03:06, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Just to catch up. there were no single subjects anywhere. Three Rayfords died; only one was diagnosed properly. Others in Saint Louis were also diagnosed incorrectly.

ABSURDE SENTENCE
"Kaposi's sarcoma, a rare type of cancer that, up to that time, mostly affected elderly Jewish and Italian men"

SO according this phrase if you obtain the italian citizenship or convert yourself to judaism you risk to contract kaposi's sarcoma, being italian an adjective referred to the people who live in italy (italian is a nationality, not an ethnic group) and jewish are people who follow the judaism not a race. bytheway i'm curious to know some infos where is written that this cancer is higher in italy than the rest of the world —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.10.221.89 (talk) 18:38, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Why is this absurd and ridiculous statement allowed here?


 * This line (slightly paraphrased) can be found here. Also, from how I read the article, Dr. William Drake, the pathologist who performed Robert R.’s autopsy, may have written this note into his autopsy report.  Without being able to read the autopsy report, or finding out from the reporter or someone else, this can only be an assumption.


 * As for the wording, I feel that it could be changed to saying something like “affected elderly men of Mediterranean or Ashkenazi Jewish heritage.”
 * References:
 * "mainly in Mediterranean males and mid-European Jews"
 * Medical genetics of Jewish people
 * Epidemiological study of classic Kaposi's sarcoma: a retrospective review of 125 cases from Northern Israel Jakewilliams (talk) 20:56, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

CONTAMINATED NEEDLE ?
Is it possible that he caught HIV from a contaminated needle that was perhaps improperly disinfected ? I'm not sure about the US but some countries did not have disposable needles in those days. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.65.73.201 (talk) 22:08, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Western Blot test was performed in 87, not 89.
Just edited the section about the Western Blot test date. According to all sources, the test have been performed before 1969. An article about this test has been published in 1988 in JAMA : Garry RF, Witte MH, Gottlieb AA, et al. Documentation of an AIDS Virus Infection in the United States in 1968. JAMA: The Journal of the American Medical Association. 1988;260(14):2085 -2087. Mirko Grmek : Histoire du SIDA (trans. History of AIDS) states 1987 with several sources (p. 210 in French edition). I then consider 1987 to be the correct date. Tehboii (talk) 19:18, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Any chance of identity or photograph?
Just wondering if they will forever keep the identity of Robert R. a secret. Why do they need to? Geeky Randy (talk) 22:40, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * http://tvnews.vanderbilt.edu/program.pl?ID=106538 --TheGreatUnsolved (talk) 10:13, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
 * https://jeda.id/files/2019/12/v2-98a5da9dc827fd587a892defbcf22166_hd.jpg Daviddaniel37 (talk) 01:46, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Born with it
This is mere speculation, of course, but if he had symptoms at 12 and died at 15, there is a decent chance that he was born with HIV. D O N D E groovily  Talk to me  17:36, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Not if his mother was alive and kicking three decades later (see above) Vauxhall1964 (talk) 21:00, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
 * This is not the place for general discussion or speculation about the subject, the purpose of this talk page is to host discussions about how to improve the article. Please do not continue this discussion. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:12, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

His mother died at the age of 79 three years ago. She did not have HIV or AIDS. He would have died much younger if he was born with HIV. --Daviddaniel37 (User talk:Daviddaniel37) 13:04, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

He actually looks to be a classic example of a risk group case lending further support to the multifactoral hypothesis(both the conservative Root-Bernstein Sonnabend one and the radical Perth Group one) of AIDS. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.49.241.32 (talk) 19:47, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Robert Rayford Family
After looking up Robert Rayford family history his father  grandfather  grandmother  and brother all died from pneumonia. It seems kinda odd that they all appeared to have the same symptoms. Only Robert death certificate state cause of death as lymphedema. But doctors stated pneumonia and difficulty breathing. Reference their death certificates. Just a thought that they're maybe a link between all of them. So the abuse thing may not be so far off in thinking. 2601:4C2:100:990:79D8:A8DB:EC05:6F0E (talk) 07:30, 16 July 2022 (UTC)


 * While this still might fall under original research, a link to where you found this information might still be relevant to this article, if you can please provide it. Thank you. Geeky Randy (talk) 20:31, 16 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Percy and Sadie Rayford, his grandparents, had other symptoms on their death certificate that suggest AIDS. And Robert reported his grandfather had similar symptoms. They died in 1966. This might imply that Percy molested his grandson. Daviddaniel37 (talk) 00:50, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

“Mentally slow”?
Why is there a reference to Rayford being “mentally slow, maybe even intellectually disabled”? The source is a Medium post written by a person with no credentials as either a historian or medical professional, with no primary citations or references. No other biographical information about Rayford makes this assertion. It seems to me like speculation about the mental state of a child we know very little about is sensationalist at best, and thoughtlessly cruel at worst. 23.88.137.4 (talk) 13:36, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Per WP:MEDIUM, Medium is self-published user-generated content. It should not be cited by Wikipedia. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 06:27, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * He was not developmentally delayed. he had a learning disability. This is based on information told me by his brother. Daviddaniel37 (talk) 01:50, 3 April 2023 (UTC)