Talk:Robert Schumann/Archive 1

Legacy
the legacy section seems a bit more like an editorial than an encyclopedia entry; i don't really know enough about schumann to make any useful changes, but just thought i'd point that out.

Pantheists category
65.185.213.33 added this article and several others to the Pantheists category. Can anyone corroborate this, or is it simple vandalism? Charivari 08:16, 20 January 2006 (UTC)


 * As with Friedrich Schiller, I propose that the category be removed until anonymous user returns with some documentation. -- HK  15:39, 20 January 2006 (UTC)


 * And since there has been no further discussion, I will proceed to do so. -- HK  22:28, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Copyright violation?
COPYRIGHT VIOLATION --This article seems to be copied word for word, with only minor alterations and additions, from. It is evidently under copyright to Soylent Communications 2006. Surely, it should be deleted, yes? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.71.220.231 (talk • contribs).


 * No. They are both derived from a common source, the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica.  The article at nndb.com is much closer to the original (the copyright is arguably bogus, since the 1911 EB is in public domain).  The Wikipedia article has diverged significantly from the 1911 source, but retains some of the same wording.  (It needs rewriting, but clearly no one has gotten around to it yet).  Antandrus  (talk) 04:04, 1 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I think the "Copyright Soylent Communications" bit applies to the website core, not the actual content - See the bottom of this NNDB page. Jackc143 (talk) 20:36, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

When Schumann met Brahms
I've removed 'September' from the 1835-39 section: the month is given as October in the 'after 1850' section, and this is in fact correct. Brahms first called at Schumann's house on 30 September 1853 but he was not at home: his daughter Marie told Brahms to come back the next day. The first meeting was therefore on 1 October. This is in Eugenie Schumann's autobiography.Cenedi 11:06, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Front rank of German romantics
This phrase is vague enough to avoid the charge of 'peacocking'. If we say that Schumann was a great composer, and one of the greatest of German romantic composers, we merely say what every other reference work says. Viz. Larrousse: "Robert Schumann, the middle class boy from the provinces who was to become one of the greatest Romantic composers and one of the most outstanding geniuses in the history of music..."

Links
I have deleted some non-notable sites where there were brief redundant articles. Then I deleted a 404-error link from pianosociety.com/index.php (if anyone wish to report the correct one...?). Then the dlib.indiana.edu/variations/scores/song.html link was of very difficoult navigation (I couldn't find anything). Alegreen 15:39, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Clara Schumann
"Here the work is discussed by the imaginary characters Florestan (the embodiment of Schumann's passionate, voluble side) and Eusebius (his dreamy, introspective side) -the counterparts of Vult and Walt in Jean Paul's novel Flegeljahre; and a third, Meister Raro, is called upon for his opinion. Raro may represent either the composer himself, Wieck, or the combination of the two (ClaRA + RObert)." Clara is first mentioned here as "combination of the two". At this point, however, the reader doesn't know that this refers to Clara Schumann. Could something be done about this? I think Clara Schumann is notable enough as a person to be mentioned even in the first paragraph of the article, something along the lines: "He was the husband of Clara Schumann". Afterall, Robert Schumann is mentioned in the first sentence of the Clara Schumann article. ;-)--Wormsie 13:58, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I absolutely agree... she played unequivocally a major role on Robert's life, to the point that music attributed to either one was actually written by both. She was his source of inspiration (some mention his deteriorating sanity), and his early life was definitely shaped by the events related to her father's refusal to give her in matrimony to Robert. Something has to be done about this, or this will read like Martin Van Buren's autobiography... in which he didn't mention his wife, even once... Demf 15:52, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Glad that somebody agrees. :) My last edit was reverted, hopefully the reverter at least agrees to discuss this matter at first. I think last time the reason was "Robert Schumann was more popular than his wife", but more popular doesn't make her less significant, not as a person and not even in the matter of what kind of an influence Clara had on Robert's work and life. Also, there's still the problem of Clara Schumann being mentioned in the article only in passing, and this would at least clear that issue somewhat.--Wormsie 08:52, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Complete list of works
Does anyone know where a full list of Schumann's works can be found? The link to the list of works gives only works WITH opus numbers. And what about works without opus numbers? I ask this because I got a piece of music (Schumann's) which instead of opus number has this - WoO 28. As I understand WoO means without opus. Please help!


 * The online Grove (grovemusic.com, subscription access) has a complete list. Woo 28 is a  bit of the Fantasiestücke that Schumann omitted from the original 1838 publication (he wrote it in 1837); it was only published in 1935.  The other eight pieces of the Fantasiestücke he published as opus 12.  Antandrus  (talk) 19:38, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

You're right! I got it on a CD with 'Fantasiestücke'' op.12! Thanks!

Middle name Alexander
Re the edit of 12 August 2004: I have no idea who Eric Frederik Jensen is, or what evidence he adduces that Schumann had no middle name. I'd like to see it, though.

The question from today's edit: "what's more, when do you ever see or hear it?" seems to be an argument not to state his middle name, even if it was completely accepted that he had one. I reject that argument - all of Wikipedia's biographical articles start with the subject's full name to the extent that we know it, yet the vast majority of our subjects used only their first given name.

But to answer the question, Grove and Slonimsky both start their articles with Schumann, Robert (Alexander). JackofOz 01:26, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The newest Grove online has an explanatory note: "there is no evidence for a middle name -- Alexander -- given in some sources; both birth and death certificates give only "'Robert Schumann.'"  Antandrus  (talk) 00:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Curious. I wonder where the idea that he had this middle name came from.  Is it possible that someone just made it up, and ever since then other writers have been copying the error in good faith?  --  JackofOz (talk) 00:10, 20 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Here's the only explanation that Daverio includes in the Grove article: "Possibly Alexander is a corruption of his teenage pseudonym 'Skülander'."  We could actually quote Daverio in entirety in a footnote if that's helpful.  Cheers, Antandrus  (talk) 05:15, 20 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Is there any corroboration of the Grove assertion that there is no middle name? At the moment, there seems to be one reference saying there was no middle name, and many saying there was. It’s an unresolved issue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ælfric (talk • contribs) 23:43, 30 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, Grove seem to be the only ones who actually checked his birth and death certificates. If the others could come up with a bc or dc that actually includes the word "Alexander", that would be more convincing than their mere assertions that he had a middle name.  --  JackofOz (talk) 08:19, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Nänie disambiguation question
Schumann wrote a piece for piano and three voices (SSA) called Nänie, words by Ludwig Bechstein) (opus 114 No 1) - a recording of which I have uploaded to the Schumann page (GFDL - my own performance). It is in fact a lament for a dead pet bird.  I notice that Nänie has an article of its own in wikipedia but only refers to the SATB piece by Brahms (different and much more serious words).  Is it advisable to create a disambiguation page? Can someone more wiki-savvy than the undersigned possibly do this? If so I can send the words of the Schumann piece. Thanks Dwsolo 06:31, 8 July 2007 (UTC)dwsolo

Section titles
We need more than just years and dates for these paragraph titles. We should have labels of events in his life, what he was doing at the time, like in other biography articles. "Early life (1832-1857)", "Work in London (1874-1882)", &c. VolatileChemical 06:01, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

quirky prose
Methinks that large chunks of this article were lifted from a second-rate source. I don't know which, but there are common patterns—odd ways of putting things, vagueness, unsupported claims.

Needs an overhaul. Tony  (talk)  12:54, 31 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Relics of the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica article. Sometimes I wish we'd never have copied from that thing, back in the early days of the project -- it's just so hard to write "around" their prose.  In most cases I think it would be easier just to start from scratch.  You can see the same thing in the Schubert article. Antandrus  (talk) 05:18, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

A little bit of work done on the overhaul, but it definitely needs more. DJRafe (talk) 08:43, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

"In 1840, after a long and acrimonious legal battle with her father..."
Meaning what? What was this all about? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.101.153.231 (talk) 01:39, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Clara sued her father for permission to marry Bob. The courtroom scene is dramatized in Song of Love (which is not that bad a biopic). WilliamSommerwerck (talk) 15:12, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Hand injury
Three possible causes for the hand injury are put forward in the article, all without specific citations. I am not up to date with the Schumann literature, so please can others discuss the relative merits of the theories? I do not think the contraption implicated in one theory was of Schumann's own invention. How syphilis medication can injure a hand needs to be clarified. The evidence for the "surgical procedure" that Schumann is supposed to have carried out needs to be explained more fully (and what might have driven him to risk so much in going to such lengths). If any of these theories are speculative then the article should say so. --RobertG ♬ talk 09:25, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't want to edit the article myself, but an article in the British Medical Journal by Henson and Urich (Br Med J. 1978 April 8; 1(6117): 900–903) covers the matter in detail. If a Schumann fan out there would like to add this information in I think it would be an improvement over its current speculative state. Shastrix (talk) 13:50, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, the issue seems rather overblown in the introduction compared to what is said in the actual body text.72.93.171.91 (talk) 23:48, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Recent addition to lead
The following was recently added to the lead:


 * Schuman's mental state affected the style of his compositions and his literary writings. He suffered from what many historians believe to be bi-polar disorder. Schumann devised three characters out of this disorder that represented three different moods. Eusebius represented his contemplative/introspective/calmer state, Floristan represented his fiery/impulsive side, and Master Raro was the superego of sorts that tried to control the two former ones. Though this may sound like schitzophrenia, the three characters were really created by Schumann to represent these particular moods in his music/writings... not as actual personalities that are often clues towards schitzophrenia.

It is simplistic and not altogether true. Every artist's mental state affects his style. I believe bipolar disorder is now viewed as a hopelessly simplistic diagnosis of Schumann's condition. Eusebius, Florestan and Raro do need to be documented, but in the article not in the lead. "Schitzophrenia" is merely mentioned in order to be discounted. For these reasons I restored the previous version. --RobertG ♬ talk 09:39, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Niels W. Gade
Robert Schumann was friends with Niels W. Gade. He even composed a song, "Norse Song", for Gade, the first four chords of which are G, A, D, and E, respectively. It is mentioned in the Gade article that he was friends with Schumann, should it not be mentioned in the Schumann article that he was friends with Gade? 24.15.53.225 (talk) 04:53, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm familiar with the "Norse Song" but I don't think there is a vocal version of it. (It's not a real "song" except for its title.) It is a piano piece and a part of "Album for the Young" and is also called "Greetings to Gade" if my memory is correct.Ed (talk) 23:33, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Gade, although highly significant in Danish musical history, does not rate highly in world musical history, whereas Schumann is a world figure (although the activity and interest in this article would hardly bear this out, Steven Isserlis where are you). Schumann was also friends with Ludwig Schunke, Norbert Burgmueller and Albert Dietrich, all talented composers. I don't think also that Joachim is mentioned in this article. Eusebius12 (talk) 15:55, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Der Corsar
I noticed that the article says Schumann wrote only one opera Genoveva. However, I believe he wrote another one, Der Corsar, prior to Genoveva in 1844. I know a fragment of it exists and had its world premiere in 1981. I am not sure, however, whether it was an uncoompleted opera or whether it was a full opera where only part of the score survived. See here: .Nrswanson (talk) 00:42, 7 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Grove V says it was not completed, only a "chorus of corsairs" and an "aria for Conrad" being written.  What state the rest (if any) was left in by Schumann, I could not hazard a guess.  --  JackofOz (talk) 08:14, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Composer project review
I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. You can read my detailed review on the comments page. Article is B-class; there is room to improve it.  Magic ♪piano 18:07, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Zwickau symphony dating
According to Jensen, seems to have been written 1832-3 - winter of 1832 is accurate but misleading; one finds "written in 1832" in some places, where it was in fact finished in 1833. (I know, who cares...) Schissel | Sound the Note! 00:26, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Newly Discovered Piece
Will there be any discussion about the newly discovered piece, "Ahnung"? 95.208.70.218 (talk) 22:15, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Contents box for this page
CONTENTS BOX IS TOO LOW ON PAGE, COMING AFTER 4TH PARAGRAPH — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:62:5E15:FE01:14E6:738:727A:1239 (talk) 09:46, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

The automatically generated contents box was tucked away in the Comments part of the WikiProject Biography box because it contains subsections. There, it would be hidden from most eyes. I have added   after the box templates to force the contents box to be put where most people would expect it. --Stfg (talk) 19:05, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

P.S. The comments parts of the box templates are indexed in the TOC, but the links only jump to them if the comments parts are shown, not if they are hidden. It may feel a bit strange. If anyone has enough technical wizardry to solve that, please do :)) --Stfg (talk) 19:09, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Ambiguous sentence
The 1840-49 section included this confusing sentence (with particularly quirky punctuation), "The strain of this long courtship, (they finally married in 1840) and its consummation led to this great outpouring of lieder (vocal songs with piano accompaniment)." I tentatively changed it to "The strain of this long courtship (they finally married in 1840), and of its consummation, led to this great outpouring of lieder (vocal songs with piano accompaniment)." Would someone knowledgeable and/or with access to the requisite reference works please verify whether my interpretation is correct? Some rephrasing may be desirable for clarity. Hertz1888 (talk) 20:22, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Contradiction
As of 8 Oct 2012, he introduction to the article states that Robert married Clara just a day before she was of legal age, and that if they had waited only one more day they wouldn't have needed her father's permission. But the body of the article states he married her after she was of legal age and no longer needed her father's permission.


 * I was just about to post this too. If I get time (and can remember), I'll look up this information to see which is correct.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.58.124.116 (talk) 02:55, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Was Schumann Left-Handed?
The following link indicates that Schumann was left-handed.

http://www.anythingleft-handed.co.uk/fam_entertainment.html

Does anyone have another reference to substantiate this? If so, should this be added to the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by WhiteOak2006 (talk • contribs) 02:30, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Push to GA/FA status
Hi everyone,

I'm currently working on a userfied copy of this article to try and get it up to at least GA (hopefully FA) status. If you want to make any changes, then, as always, go ahead and make them! (I'm watching the article and will write any changes into my version.)

Note: '''This is just a courtesy notice that I'm working on the article so people know. This DOES NOT mean or (I hope) imply ownership of the article.''' Jackc143 (talk) 14:13, 12 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately I don't have the time anymore to do it. Sorry, Rain City 471  [talk] 13:47, 22 August 2013 (UTC) (formerly Jackc143)

Robert Schumann didn't invent program music!
The following sentence needs to be rethought and rewritten: "The fusion of literary ideas with musical ones – known as program music – may be said to have first taken shape in Papillons, Op. 2 (Butterflies), a musical portrayal of events in Jean Paul's novel Die Flegeljahre." WilliamSommerwerck (talk) 01:18, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Berlioz pre-dates Schumann in this area, just for starters.HammerFilmFan (talk) 14:23, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 04:41, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Pianist?
Robert aspired to be a pianist, but was unable to do that because he injured his hands, using practice devices he had invented. Marlindale (talk) 22:47, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

More references? See Clara Schumann
More references have been requested, June 2017. Some may be found among references to the article on Clara. She is known more as a pianist than a composer. She has an autobiography based on diaries and letters. Marlindale (talk) 16:01, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Cause of death
According to Judith Chernaik's 2018 biography Schumann: The Faces and the Masks (pp. 299-301), it is "virtually certain" that the cause of Schumann's death was "tertiary syphilis." – Sca (talk) 14:35, 11 March 2019 (UTC)