Talk:Robert Smalls

Rank
The infobox gives Smalls military rank as "Captain". Simply wrong. He was a civilian, Although he played a major role in admitting African-Americans to military service, he himself never joined. He did command a military transport, giving him the title of captain. But that's not the same as rank.--Isaac Rabinovitch (talk) 17:55, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think it is so clear. Below are two sources that have him commissioned second lieutenant of the 33rd US Colored Infantry (the descendant regiment of the 1st South Carolina Volunteers). The second source, from Indianapolis Daily News, says that when he was assigned to be pilot of the Planter, he was not allowed by the navy to hold the rank of pilot because he was not a graduate of a naval academy, a requirement at that time. In order to assure he received the proper pay for a captain, he was commissioned second lieutenant of the 33rd US Colored Infantry and detailed to act as pilot.
 * Both sources also claim that Gilmore, as commander of the district, promoted Smalls to captain (maybe in the Army but Smalls thought it was Navy), which is cited elsewhere as well. Later in his life, when he sought a Navy pension, he learned that he was not officially commissioned. He claimed to have received an official commission from Gillmore but to have lost it. In 1883, a bill passed or nearly passed to put him on the Navy retired list, but in the end was halted. He may have occasionally received a pension, though, his records on fold3 seem to refer to a special act maybe in 1897, with a pension number of 18992. I'm trying to sort that out and see if there are any secondary sources about it.
 * Also, I've found a source that says he held the rank of Major General in the state militia.
 * Here are two such sources for the Army commission, they are not clearly independent from each other but I provide both in case one of the url's fails in time. "Gen. Robert Smalls", National Republican (Washington, DC), March 6, 1886, page 3, accessed August 30, 2016 at https://www.newspapers.com/clip/6434548/gen_robert_smalls_national_republican/, or another example at: "A Brave Colored Man." Indianapolis Daily News, Indianapolis, Marion County, 4 August 1876, page 2, accessed August 30, 2016 at https://newspapers.library.in.gov/cgi-bin/indiana?a=d&d=INN18760804-01.1.2 Smmurphy(Talk) 22:14, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Self-contradiction re. escape
The second paragraph under "Escape from slavery" states that several family members of the escaping crew, (including Smalls's own wife and children, according to the note), boarded the ship on the 12th while it was docked at the North Atlantic wharf. The very next paragraph states that the family members were picked up at another wharf during the night, AFTER the ship departed from the North wharf. These two statements are contradictory, only one version of the events can be true. (And other online sources seem to reinforce the second version.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.133.62.242 (talk) 17:19, 15 February 2020 (UTC)


 * The current description of the escape somewhat misses the drama and finer points of its execution, particularly about the family members reactions and movements, which is still unclear and somewhat out of sequence in the text. The families first boarded the Planter as visitors, were told of the plan, then departed before curfew and secretly boarded the Etiwan. I have a good source and will try to enhance the description. Another portion of the escape, passing Ft. Sumter, also deserves some expansion. While the section must stay concise, this event should encapsulate the emotion and trauma that an escape effort represented, and how Smalls was a man of steel nerves and ruthless logic. Of course, this is just a brief chapter in his extraordinary and courageous life story. He is said to have had an unusual charisma and disarming way of engaging people, recognized even when he was a young child, and that deserves to be noted in his early life, as it puts the rest in context. Zatsugaku (talk) 13:50, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Agreed! I believe the Be Free or Die book works well for this. Muttnick (talk) 14:21, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Done on the escape portion. Let me know if it meets your expectations. Will look to enhance his background later. Zatsugaku (talk) 23:58, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Things are looking good. Thanks for your contributions! Muttnick (talk) 00:45, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

No evidence of enslavement
An edit was made using verifiable sources in Smalls own words about his service to this country. Smalls enlisted in the Navy and served his country. In 1870 census, his occupation was (ship) pilot. His military record is verifiable, including him taking charge when the captain deserted. I request the original edit to be verified using the citations given and replaced to properly tell this man's story. Stating he was "born into slavery" requires a primary source.Notaslavedescendant (talk) 05:10, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
 * It is well-known Robert Smalls was a slave. He was also born in America during a time that the country did not import slaves so it can be safely inferred he was born enslaved. Muttnick (talk) 12:12, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
 * You mean "born a slave", "born enslaved" or "enslaved by" is bad English. To "enslave" means taking a free person and making them a slave.2A02:C7C:E124:800:DC38:84F0:C064:D9ED (talk) 10:07, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
 * That is not the current usage standard. The current usage standard is to refer to rnslaved people, and to not speak of people as slaves. Not everyone has embraced it, and the use of the word slave will be almost universal in pre-2005 texts, and quite common afterward. It still to the present exists in most Wikipedia articles on people who were enslaved, and in some contexts ourmtside of either enslavement in the US or at least in the trans-Atlantic enslavement system that enslavement in the US was part of it is maybe still the norm. The main point is to try to re-enter the focus on people. There may also be ideological statements about the fact that all are born free. Either way, Wikipedia is not to right great wrongs, and the words here no matter what they are will not in any case right the wrongs of enslavement. Wikipedia seeks yk follow current scholarly and academic conventions in its wording, but dome of those are disputed. For most purposes slave=enslaved person. There is somewhat of a push to introduce person or people in more titles, and that is a plus here. We need to avoid going overboard, and we should not run where the language has not gone, but this is a place language has gone.John Pack Lambert (talk) 05:12, 2 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is supposed to be built on secondary not primary sources. So unless we have a secondary source that says that the 1870 US cendis says that Smalls was a pilot we should not say so. The US census is both not reliable and primary. It should never be directly used to say anything by us as editors. If secondary sources do so, we can follow their lead, but we should not be directly pulling from it.John Pack Lambert (talk) 05:03, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Cord?
This seems to be a standard US English unit of measurement but I (an Anglo) had never heard of it. I would have wikilinked the term to Cord (unit) but risked messing with the fully functioning cu metre conversion already in place. Really enjoyed reading this well-written article, btw. Haploidavey (talk) 08:15, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Please help me. (you can remove this section, if you fixed it)
Please help remove the 'baby smalls' edits. I tried to undo them, but the 'baby smalls' thing keeps removing the sections of the page. Please fix the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Harry Bradshaw (talk • contribs)


 * First, please sign your edits, so we'll know to whom we are speaking. Second, I'm relatively new to this particular article, but I have no idea what you are referring to, and I see no relevant edits in the history.  Please explain.  DoctorJoeE  review transgressions/ talk to me!  14:48, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
 * ...and, after digging a bit deeper, I now see the issue. The page has been restored to stable condition, and the vandal is now blocked, so I think the problem is solved.  DoctorJoeE  review transgressions/ talk to me!  18:39, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Valuable source
I do not see that this or the article on USS Planter (1862) the vessel which Smalls delivered to Union forces, have used a 2014 report on that ship. That source is (which I have now cited in the ship article) is: The Search for Planter: The Ship That Escaped Charleston and Carried Robert Smalls to Destiny by Bruce G. Terrell, Gordon P. Watts, and Timothy J. Runyan, published in 2014 by National Marine Sanctuaries of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration as National Marine Maritime Heritage Program Series Number 1. It may be useful here.

Best wishes, Kablammo (talk) 23:55, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

"First free and compulsory education system in the United States".
I was under the impression that the the first "free and compulsory" system of State education in the United States was in Massachusetts in 1852 - not in South Carolina. 2A02:C7C:E124:800:DC38:84F0:C064:D9ED (talk) 10:09, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

More links and better sourcing
The fellow railroad trustee who was a member of the South Carolina should either be linked to the article or redlinked. Legislature members are assumed notable.~ John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:58, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

More money conversions
when we discuss his pension we would be advised to do money conversions to modern figures, as is done earlier with the cost to buy his families freedom and the prize awarded for the Planter.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:59, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Weird, and inaccurate, use of language in the article.
Some of the language used in the article is strange and inaccurate - such as "enslaved by" attributed to someone who had never "enslaved" anyone. Southern slave owners no more "enslaved" people than Cicero or other Roman landowners did - they inherited or bought people who already were slaves, indeed had normally been born slaves. To "enslave" someone means you go out and take a free person and make them a slave. 2A02:C7C:E183:AC00:C891:7C60:7DD2:4095 (talk) 23:42, 23 February 2024 (UTC)