Talk:Robert Turnbull Macpherson

Surviving work oil painting of the Roman Campagna 1842
According to Marjorie Munsterberg The Art Bulletin © 1986 p 144 (small image) this work is a view of the Campagna by Robert J Macpherson. Can the article be amended with a reference to show where this is to be seen, and can it be verified as the work of the photographer? IainL2011 (talk) 11:58, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The painting, I have been told, is in a private collection. IainL2011 (talk) 18:34, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Source? Firstorm (talk) 04:04, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
 * A researcher into Macpherson who has been in touch with Crawford but not verifiableand so cannot be included in the article. IainL2011 (talk) 09:56, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
 * From Crawford 2008, "The proof finally did arrive in the form of three letters all in his customary handwriting and literary style, that 'our' R.M. was indeed Robert T Macpherson (and sure enough the T was written with a similarity to a J)". However, I have no further information about the painting or its signature. GoldenDaze (talk) 18:04, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Where does "Turnbull" come from and verifiable date of birth?
The photographer Robert Macpherson is referred to invariably as such in the references to this article, not as Robert Turnbull Macpherson. Marjorie Munsterberg suggests his birth year was 1811 in Forfarshire. Familysearch.org records the birth of a Robert Turnbull Mcpherson, at Dalkeith on 27th February 1814; Mc not Mac. What verifiable evidence is there that this is the Robert Macpherson of the article? IainL2011 (talk) 17:41, 11 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Family sources, including books from his library &c. inscribed "Robert T. Macpherson". If I remember correctly, the chief authority on the photographer, Alistair Crawford, confirmed that "T." stood for "Turnbull".  But, the origin of "Turnbull"?  I don't know -- yet.  Firstorm (talk) 21:51, 11 February 2011 (UTC)


 * "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth; that is, whether readers can check that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true. To show that it is not original research, all material in Wikipedia articles must be attributable to a reliable published source." (1) Has Alistair Crawford published anywhere so readers can check that Robert Macpherson's second name was Turnbull, as this is not apparent in any accessible sources where he is described as Robert Macpherson and (2) is there anywhere readers can check that his date of birth is 27th February 1814 in Dalkeith, and not "probably...born in 1811 in the Scottish County of Forfarshire" as Munsterberg writes? I ask this because Munsterberg also writes "Macpherson listed his county of origin as Forfarshire in the records of Edinburgh University. His great-grandson has a clear memory of Macpherson's daughter saying he was from Inverness. Birth records have not been found in either place. The year itself may be incorrect since his death certificate lists his age as fifty-seven, placing his birth in 1814 or 1815. Unfortunately, none of the other records I have found, such as his marriage certificate, lists his date of birth." His death at 17th November 1872 at the age of 57 would place his birth at the earliest in late 1814? IainL2011 (talk) 11:36, 12 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Iain, I did not write the article or passage. (The subject interests me, as a former historian, and I do remember reading both name and year in a scholarly source; I don't remember the source but still think it likely a monograph by Alistair Crawford, who is much more knowledgeable about Robert T. Macpherson than Marjorie Munsterberg is.)  If you seek additional information, you might wish to correspond with the author.  Firstorm (talk) 15:39, 12 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks Firstorm. The questions are for the editors who have written this article or anyone who can point to a verifiable source for Turnbull and the current date of birth, 27th February 1814 which does not seem to agree with the accessible part of the bibliography. We have been advised elsewhere not to correspond with Alistair Crawford, if you are in touch with him, then any pointers to published information which confirms either detail will be appreciated. IainL2011 (talk) 16:16, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

I have a copy of the OPR (Old Parish Record) entry of birth of Robert Turnbull McPherson showing on 27th February 1814, Dalkeith. It shows his father as John McPherson, fifer in the Dumfries Militia, and mother Alison McIntosh. Robert Macpherson's death certificate shows, apparently, his father's name as John and his mother's name as Alison McIntosh but I have not yet seen it, so not verified. It is part of the evidence presented by Alistair Crawford in his papers, not yet seen, that this Robert Turnbull McPherson and the Robert Macpherson of the article are the same person. I also have a copy of the registry entry of the marriage of Robert Macpherson and Louisa Gerardine Bate, 6th September 1849, Ealing. It gives his father's name as John, occupation "Esquire". IainL2011 (talk) 18:32, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
 * From Crawford 2008, "Robert T" is verifiable. "Turnbull" seems likely by the preponderance of evidence, but does not appear to be verifiable at this time. A senior wiki editor suggested to me, when I first wrote this article, that I include it in the title to help disambiguate this individuals from the 3 or 4 other Robert Macphersons. Odd that there's no record of that discussion here on the talk page, but what do I know, I'm a wikipedia editing newb. Crawford 1999 discusses the birth certificate you mention, probably provided to him by Firstorm, and also cites Baile de Laperriere, c. 1991, "Royal Scottish Academy Exhibitors 1826-1990" as documenting a Robert Turnbull Macpherson as exhibiting portraits in Edinburgh, 1835-1839. Cited birth dates and places vary, from 1811 to 1816. I have a copy of a remembrance card presumably written after his death that give the 29 Feb 1816 date; it is obviously completely unverifiable but I included a mention in the footnotes to underscore the uncertainty. I selected the Crawford date as he appears to be the most comprehensive and thoroughly-researched published source. GoldenDaze (talk) 18:04, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
 * We're actually making historical discoveries through Wikipedia -- what a splendid use for the website! Both my cousin "GoldenDaze" and I are descended from Robert T. Macpherson; he has a remembrance card stating that the photographer was born on February 29, 1816; I have letters from his children alluding to his birthday on February 29th.  So, it seems, that even if we cannot be certain of Robert Macpherson's middle name, we do at last have sufficient proof of his date of birth.  Firstorm (talk) 22:33, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
 * A few other related tidbits: 1) Crawford 2008 cites the Old Parochial Registers of Scotland as listing a Robert Turnbull as "witness" (to the baptism, I suppose), so there's the source of the name -- whoever Robert Turnbull was. 2) Crawford 2008 also claims that Robert Turnbull Macpherson disappears from the records of the Royal Scottish Academy's exhibitions after 1839, while Robert (T) Macpherson appears in Rome in 1840. Part of the significant, but still circumstantial, body of evidence that the two are the same person. IainL, you said "We have been advised elsewhere not to correspond with Alistair Crawford". Can you elaborate? In my correspondence I found Crawford to be most helpful. GoldenDaze (talk) 14:59, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * "In my correspondence I found Crawford to be most helpful." Ditto.  Firstorm (talk) 16:14, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * In a discussion group that I subscribe to, where Crawford had been cited as a source of information, another member, who had been in touch with him, posted that he "..has had just about enough harassment so maybe you could leave Alistair alone?" and that he had been "... subject to many insults and 4-letter words."? --IainL2011 (talk) 13:07, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Unfortunate. He seemed like a very nice guy. GoldenDaze (talk) 00:59, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

New external link
What would the authors of this article think to adding Jeff Nisbet's article "The Rosslyn Templar" by R T McPhersonas a new external link to the article? IainL2011 (talk) 18:49, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the reference! I'd like to study this further - at a glance it looks very interesting. GoldenDaze (talk) 01:08, 14 March 2011 (UTC)


 * "Iain", the choice is "GoldenDaze"'s: he's the author.  I've no objection (perhaps this article could become the gathering place for internet links regarding Robert Macpherson), but I only added a bit of information.  (I have read the linked article, however, and don't entirely agree with either J. Nisbet's "facts" -- e.g., Robert Macpherson, despite his own representations, seems not to have been the nearest male relation of "Ossian" Macpherson but only one of his nearest legitimate male relations -- or his conclusory opinions -- Robert Macpherson may not have been a successful businessman, but he was no jerk.)
 * To strengthen the identity of painter Robert Turnbull Macpherson with photographer Robert Macpherson, one might examine the signature on this painting (mentioned in J. Nisbet's article, but well nigh invisible to near-sighted me); the photographer's signature is well known. Firstorm (talk) 02:45, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, this is wikipedia, so anybody can edit whatever they'd care to. My only request is that nobody send the article to the Clan newsletter, because I'm planning to do that. Firstorm did get right to the heart of my concern, which is the signature. English spelling even in the latter 17th century was rather erratic, and it would not concern me to see written records or references interchanging the use of "Macpherson", "Mcpherson", "MacPherson", or "McPherson". However, I would expect that one individual would spell his own name consistently throughout his adult life. If the painting is actually originally signed "Mcpherson", and that's certainly not obvious from the images in the article, then I'd feel rather less confident about this particular painter being the same Robert T. Macpherson later of Rome. Where that would leave the "View of the Roman Campagna" painting, and by association the entire connection to the Royal Scottish Academy, I'm just not sure. Or did Macpherson deliberately change his spelling upon arriving in Rome, either to put some distance between his new life and his old, or to emphasize his Scottish-ness (as opposed to Irish-ness that might be suggested by "Mc")? All interesting speculation, but probably un-knowable.
 * As for the relation to James Macpherson, all we have to go on is Margaret Oliphant's rather cryptic remark about "nearest male relative". As for whether he was a jerk, that might depend on your definition. We can probably agree that the evidence, in particular Freeman's contemporaneous account, shows that Mac knew how to have a good time out with the boys. Still, I thought the "prince among men" comment in the article was a bit vindictive. GoldenDaze (talk) 22:25, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * http://www.skt.org.uk/The_Rosslyn_Templar.html has a larger image of the painting, and also a small image of the signature, which clearly says "R T McP...". To which, I have no conclusion at this time. GoldenDaze (talk) 22:33, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks to "GoldenDaze", I've now been able to see the signature. It's not the same as the photographer's in later years (in block letters, not script, as well as the markedly different spelling -- though the future photographer's matriculation in the University of Edinburgh did employ a different spelling, too) and looks as though it were by a different hand (but I'm not a graphologist).  That, combined with variance in date of birth and other aspects, makes me think that R. Turnbull may not have been the same man as Robert T. Macpherson.  Firstorm (talk) 22:58, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Pending the development of more information, I've added the Templar Knight link. In a perfect world, it would stimulate more discussion and lead to the contribution of more information, for or against. Thanks again IainL2011 for contributing it!GoldenDaze (talk) 10:47, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Follow-up on "Templar Knight" painting
On 11:39, 6 May 2013 user‎ 78.86.63.123 removed this section and commented "(The R.T MacPherson who painted Templar Knight at Rosslyn Chapel, 1836, is not the same R T MacPherson who became known as the Photographer of Rome. There were two R T MacPhersons and this entry in innacurate)". I'm inclined to believe that the painting was not done by the subject of this article, likely because of the form and spelling of the signature. These doubts are noted in the footnote. I'd be very interested in any backup information that user 78.86.63.123 can provide to demonstrate the "two R T Macpherson" claim, and I would then be quite satisfied with the removal of the section. GoldenDaze (talk) 15:53, 11 June 2013 (UTC)