Talk:Robert brothers

Les Frères Robert
...Extract of Research Discussion and notes copied from Awien (talk)

Hi Awien, Can you help me with a little niggling doubt. I have just 'completed' an article about Les Frères Robert which involved lots of scrabbling for references via Google, but I am concerned that the younger brother, Marie-Noël Nicolas-Louis Robert (Robert le Jeune) has got too many names and identities. I am concerned that he may be two people, a flyer and a paper maker, but that would mean that both Larousse and Britannica are wrong, which is surely unthinkable. One source, Today in Science, describes a different person, a timid clerk called Louis who got ripped off, but it is so florid, waffly, badly translated and so focussed on the Fourdrinier machine rather than Louis, that I can't use it to contradict L & B.

Unfortunately English sources start with a disadvantage, he was one of a pair of brothers, an artesan, who had a christian name as a surname, who was half of a construction team, and half of a different flying team, in partnership with a professor who also had a christian name as a surname. Ergo La Charlière piloted by 'Charles Robert' seems perfectly feasible ... but wrong. Thus I took the liberty of agglomerating the names, Marie-Noël, Noël, Nicolas-Louis, and Louis in order to focus on the article build. Can you shed any light? Regards Chienlit (talk) 14:13, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi, Chienlit! I'll have a quick look and see what I can find out, but no promises - I can't devote too much time to it. Cheers, Awien (talk) 14:22, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


 * OK, I'm back . . . and not much farther forward.


 * The physicist in charge of the experiment (hydrogen balloon) was Jacques Charles, (per Petit Robert 2 and Petit Larousse illustré, recent paper editions). Neither dictionary has an entry for the frères Robert.


 * The frères Robert who constructed the balloon are referred to as Anne-Jean and Nicolas-Louis in two trustworthy-looking on-line sources:
 * http://www.universalis.fr/encyclopedie/C930691/BALLONS.htm


 * http://www.hydroretro.net/etudegh/les_apports_scientifiques_du_18e_siecle.pdf
 * (the author of the latter asks to be asked and credited for any use made of the material).
 * In both of these, Nicolas-Louis Robert is named as having made the flight with Jacques Charles.


 * Other documents have Marie-Noël Robert as one of the brothers and/or the one who flew, for example this local history blog: http://beuvry.unblog.fr/2009/09/01/histoire-du-quartier-du-ballon-a-beuvry/


 * Gotta go - maybe more later. Awien (talk) 16:16, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi, Thanks, list so far... Regards. Chienlit (talk) 6 November 2009 (UTC)


 * http://www.universalis.fr/encyclopedie/C930691/BALLONS.htm Universalis .fr Ballons, Anne-Jean and Nicolas-Louis


 * http://beuvry.unblog.fr/2009/09/01/histoire-du-quartier-du-ballon-a-beuvry/ History of Beuvry Anne-Jean Robert et Marie-Noël Robert


 * http://www.hydroretro.net/etudegh/les_apports_scientifiques_du_18e_siecle.pdf Les apports scientifiques du XVIIIe siècle Par Gérard Hartmann - Anne-Jean et Nicolas-Louis Robert,


 * http://www.larousse.fr/encyclopedie/groupe-homonymes/Robert/141174 Larousse .fr Anne-Jean (1758-1820) et Nicolas Louis, (Paris 1761-Dreux 1828)


 * https://www.fiddlersgreen.net/models/Aircraft/Balloon-Charles.html Fidlers Green Marie-Noel Robert


 * http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10447673 Anne-Jean and Marie-Noel Robert,


 * http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/505373/Nicolas-Louis-Robert Britannica Nicolas-Louis Robert


 * A couple more refs. The online Larousse has the Robert brothers as Anne-Jean and Nicolas Louis (called the younger Robert), with Nicolas Louis having made the flight with Charles. The 1976 paper Britannica also has "physicist J.-A.-C. Charles accompanied by Nicolas-Louis Robert" as having made the flight.


 * So there's no doubt about Jacques Alexandre César Charles, physicist and principal investigator. It also looks to me virtually certain that the Robert brothers were Anne-Jean Robert and Nicolas-Louis Robert, and that it was Nicolas-Louis Robert who flew. The sites that talk about Marie-Noël Robert are on the face of it much less authoritative, so if it were me, I would relegate this name to a footnote at most, although ideally of course, someone would go and look at the dusty old papers somewhere. Hope this helps. Awien (talk) 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Louis-Nicolas Robert
The good citizens of Vernouillet, Eure-et-Loir have built a statue in front of the eglise, and named a school after him, the local boy that almost made a machine that almost made wallpaper, badly, and yet they saw no reason to mention that he invented flying. They cannot be wrong. They have proudly put him in the Wiki page for their ville,, and written a wiki article about him , their paperboy, and yet they see no reason to mention that he invented flying. They cannot be wrong. He didn't. He is a different person.

I'm convinced(ish)
 * that 'the flyer' is correctly named and caveated as Nicolas-Louis Robert,
 * that Louis-Nicolas Robert was a paperboy, and ....aaaargh..
 * Britannica and Larousse are wrong. They have conflated 2 men. Or one has conflated and the other has shared the knowledge with a wider audience.

Regards Chienlit (talk) 11:17, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Globe / Charlière / Caroline
In spite of what some English sources say, "globe" was not the name of the balloon, it was the general term for the new technology, a globe (=sphere) filled with hot air or gas, i.e., what came to be called a balloon. Some contemporary illustrations are captioned "globe aéroststique", for example. A distinction was then made between a hydrogen balloon, called a Charlière after M. Charles, and a hot-air balloon, called a Montgolfière after the Montgolfiers. The balloon constructed by the Roberts was a Charlière, not the Charlière.

http://documentation.flypix.info/HISTOIRE%20DES%20BALLONS/FLYPIX_Document_HISTOIRE%20DES%20BALLONS%20ET%20AEROSTATS.html

As for La Caroline, I have been unable to find that name in any French source (or at first glance in the English sources footnoted). Does anyone have an authoritative ref? Awien (talk) 00:35, 22 November 2009 (UTC)


 * OK, a closer look shows the source (of the name "Caroline") to be a site dedicated to ballooning in the decorative arts - by no means an authority on ballooning as such. I'm very suspicious of "Caroline" since it's etymologically an adjective formed from the Latin form of Charles (Carolus), in the same way "Charlière" is derived from the French form of Charles's name. Any better refs, anyone? Awien (talk) 17:20, 22 November 2009 (UTC)


 * La Charlière Aerophile.com Birth of the Charlière or gas balloon
 * La Caroline Federation Aeronautique Internationale, Ballooning Commission, Hall of Fame, Robert Brothers.
 * ... Still searching for Le Globe versus le 'Globe' presumably. Chienlit (talk) 18:33, 9 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Hey Chienlit!


 * "Charlière" isn't a problem except that it's a common noun: a charlière like a ship, not the Charlière like the QE II. At this site:


 * http://aerostation.free.fr/ffa/histo_00.shtml


 * it's very clear. The relevant section says "26 novembre : Charles et les frères Robert présentent en public leur ballon à gaz ou "charlière". Ce ballon à gaz présente l'avantage d'être d'avoir une force ascensionnelle beaucoup plus stable et il n'y a pas de combustible (des bottes de paille sur une montgolfière) à emporter à bord. (Notice that montgolfière is also used as a common noun in the same way).


 * Globe too is a common not a proper noun, a globe not the Globe, the term for what we call the envelope today.The relevant excerpt from the same site (my emphasis): "27 août : à l'aide de l'argent récolté par l'élite intellectuelle de Paris (dix mille livres), Jacques Charles, 37 ans, a construit un globe de soie imperméabilisé rempli à l'hydrogène. La mise en place et le remplissage du ballon aura nécessité 4 jours. La foule ayant envahi les alentours de la cour où les préparatifs prenaient place, le matériel est transféré au Champ-de-Mars. La stupeur des passants était totale, à voir cet énorme globe de xx mètres de diamètre se promener au-dessus des toits, retenu au sol par de solides cordes. À 17 heures, au son du canon, le globe et lâché et s'envole du Champs de Mars".


 * As for the elongated balloon, they don't give it a particular name at all: "15 juillet : ascension du Duc de Chartres, le futur Philippe-Égalité à bord du ballon allongé des frères Robert et de Colin Hullin. Parti de Saint-Cloud, l'aérostat atterrit difficilement à Meudon". Elsewhere in the article they name other balloons such as la Gustave, le Flesselles, l'Entreprenant . . . while the English-language press release calling it the Caroline gives no sources. I'm afraid I remain very dubious, and would love to have some good old dusty books to check in. Cheers, Awien (talk) 03:23, 10 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Awien. I bow to your almost infinitely superior knowledge of English and French. Unfortunately I used the names as a natural shorthand when I 'standardised' many articles and lists across wiki. I will now redo them, but feel free to stalk me and correct the grammar, syntax etc. :-/ Chienlit (talk) 13:12, 10 December 2009 (UTC) PS - I assume that Caroline is ok because it is ref'd by Federation Aeronautique Internationale, Ballooning Commission, Hall of Fame, Robert Brothers.


 * I'm sorry to be such a party p... I mean spoilsport, but I am sure of globe and charlière, there are just tons of references. As for Caroline, I did look at the FAI ref, that's the press release about which I said I have doubts. But a negative is hard to prove, we're not going to find a statement such as "their elongated balloon was not called the Caroline". However, in the absence of more trustworthy evidence that it was, I am definitely in favour of saying simply "elongated balloon" unless we can find a better source. When I have time, I'll have another look. Best, Awien (talk) 20:27, 10 December 2009 (UTC)