Talk:Roberto Cofresí/Archive 2

GA review

 * GA review (see here for criteria)


 * 1) It is reasonably well written.
 * a (prose): b (MoS):
 * 1) It is factually accurate and verifiable.
 * a (references): b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR):
 * 1) It is broad in its coverage.
 * a (major aspects): b (focused):
 * 1) It follows the neutral point of view policy.
 * Fair representation without bias:
 * 1) It is stable.
 * No edit wars etc.:
 * 1) It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
 * a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:
 * 1) It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
 * a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:

Comments
 * Please use Template:Persondata on biographical articles.
 * Lots and lots of sentences and paragraphs start with "Cofresi..." which is repetitious. Consider rewording some.
 * The prose is somewhat stilted and very awkward. It could use a good copyedit by someone other than the main editors. I've done some of the most glaring awkward bits, but there are other places. It also has a lot of sentences that run on or contain unconnected ideas.
 * The tone of the prose is also somewhat unencyclopedic at times. An example is the section in the early life section that describes him daydreaming about life at sea.
 * Cofresi the pirate section, can we give the full name of De la Torre? Is there an article on him?
 * Same section and sentence. the sentence is awkward. "anit-piracy measures based on the economic losses" makes no sense at all. It needs to be reworded.
 * Imprisonment in the Dominican Republic section, fifth sentence is very run on. Consider breaking it up or otherwise rewording it. This section is also somewhat wordy, you might consider tweaking the prose a bit there too. The feel is very travelogue-ish, with lots of "they went here, did this, then went there"
 * Final years section. Second sentence of the first paragraph isn't a full sentence, it lacks a verb.
 * Same section, the third sentence is awkward, it gives the cargo in the first part and then switches to an attack by pirates. Also it's very much a run on sentence.
 * United States government version section, the second sentence is very awkward and unclear.
 * Same section, next sentence is also very awkward.
 * USS Grampus should be italicized
 * Aftermath section, sentence starting with "It was believed..." is awkward and needs rewording. Also, Catholic should be capitalized if you're referring to the church.
 * Influence section, last sentence of the first paragraph is awkward and needs rewording.
 * Same section, the whole first paragraph is opinion and needs source citations.
 * Same section, next paragraph, the first sentence is awkward.
 * Same section, the third paragraph needs work on awkwardness and encyclopedic tone.
 * The fourth paragraph of this section needs citations.
 * the fifth paragraph of this section needs work on the prose, it's awkward. Among other issues, it's "body of water" not "water body".
 * You need to give both metric and Imperial measurements. convert will do this for you.
 * The formatting of your references is inconsistent. The first footnote is in a different format than the others. Website references need publisher and last access date at the very minimum.
 * http://home.mindspring.com/~johnqu/Roberto%20Cofresi%20was%20a%20legitimate%20trader%20between%20Santo%20Domingo%20and%20Puerto%20Rico%20during%20Spain's%20rule%20over%20both%20islands.txt gives no sources or author for the information, what makes it a reliable source?
 * Likewise http://www.solboricua.com/, http://www.prfdance.org/cofresi.htm, http://welcome.topuertorico.org/index.shtml
 * I'm failing this article due to prose issues mainly, although there are concerns about references and reliable sources also. If you disagree with my decision, feel free to bring it up at WP:GAR. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:00, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Notice I believe that all of the concerns have now been taken care of (4-3-08)
 * Everything has been fixed and rehrased or re-written. Let, me explain one thing. When User:Caribbean H.Q., expanded the article (He did a wonderful job) he had to translate some of the information from the book which he cited, from Spanish to English. Spanish is his first language and his was not an easy task. That is the reason that the prose was out of place. The references have been fixed, there are some references mentioned such as http://www.prfdance.org/cofresi.htm that are from reliable Puerto Rican institutions such as the Puerto Rican Folkloric Dance & Cultural Center. In regard to the book reference Cuándo se hace pirata Cofresí." the publisher "Editorial Universitaria, Universidad de Puerto Rico" is mentioned. Tony the Marine (talk) 01:52, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Tony, could you split refs 1 and 3 into separate refs with specific page numbers instead of one generic ref? Also, refs 5, 6 and 7 are self-published and don't meet WP:RS. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not love) 05:44, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you Nishkid64, for your welcomed observations. I have looked into your suggestions and you are definitely right. I have taken care of all concerns and I now believe that the article should be reconsidered for "GA" status. Do you agree? Tony the Marine (talk) 20:23, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
 * From a quick glance, the references look fine. I will look at the prose and offer my evaluation. I'll ask Ealdgyth if he will agree with my decision. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not love) 03:28, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Good article nomination on hold
This article's Good Article promotion has been put on hold. During review, some issues were discovered that can be resolved without a major re-write. This is how the article, as of April 11, 2008, compares against the six good article criteria:


 * 1. Well written?: Pass, just needed a tad more interwiki links Done
 * 2. Factually accurate?: templates have been placed where it needs to be clear where the source for the information is. I should imagine in most cases this is simply the reference used at the end of the paragraph, in which cause it should just be used more than once, there isn't anything wrong with that. DONE
 * 3. Broad in coverage?: Pass
 * 4. Neutral point of view?: Pass, good work on the mythology section espicially under this criteria
 * 5. Article stability? Pass
 * 6. Images?: Pass, very good use of images.

Please address these matters soon and then leave a note here showing how they have been resolved. After 48 hours the article should be reviewed again. If these issues are not addressed within 7 days, the article may be failed without further notice. Thank you for your work so far. Million_Moments (talk) 13:24, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


 * It is "Done". Tony the Marine (talk) 15:04, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Successful good article nomination
I am glad to report that this article nomination for good article status has been promoted. This is how the article, as of April 11, 2008, compares against the six good article criteria:


 * 1. Well written?: Pass
 * 2. Factually accurate?: Pass (it's nice to see books being used instead of just websites!)
 * 3. Broad in coverage?: Pass, I can't think of anything not covered
 * 4. Neutral point of view?: Pass as above
 * 5. Article stability? Pass
 * 6. Images?: Pass as above

In general, the only way this article can be improved is simply by expansion where possible. If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to Good article reassessment. Thank you to all of the editors who worked hard to bring it to this status, and congratulations.— Million_Moments (talk) 15:51, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Cayetano Coll y Toste
I am sitting on the wall about this note written by famed historian Cayetano Coll y Toste. I know that he is a notable and credible source, but the writing style seems to imply that this is, at least partially, a fictional story. Coll y Toste was born 25 years after Cofresí's death, which probably means that he had contact with people that may have known the historical facts. However, he is the only source that seems to list the actual names of some of El Mosquito's crew, Galache (likely a surname; the boatswain and also the one left in charge of the wheel, meaning that he was most likely the ship's First Mate as well) and Pilichi (nickname; a grommet or young sailor), which made me somewhat suspicious. He also details Cofresí's route in St. Thomas, including the detailed assault of a Danish ship. I want to know what you think about this particular piece, I was leaning towards adding the content, but with direct attribution to Coll y Toste, just in case that it is more legend that fact. -  Ca ri bb e a  n ~ H. Q.  02:09, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Coll y Toste also gives the most specific description of Cofresí that I have seen, claiming that he was strong, proud (as in arrogant), brave, nimble and risky. Then he mentions the use of an ax, istead of the stereotypical cutlass seen in the statue... -  Ca ri bb e a  n ~ H. Q.  02:19, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure but I think the story is from "Leyendas y Tradiciones Puertorriqueñas", I think here his aim was more literary than historical. You bring an important issue, we have to be careful to distinguish between the historical facts and the romanticized figure of the pirate. I don't see a problem adding the name of the crew, but we need a better understanding of the source, did it come from "Leyendas" or "Boletin Historico"?--Jmundo (talk) 04:10, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
 * It came from Leyendas, it is the only mention that Coll y Toste gives to Cofresí in his work (as far as I know). Boletin Historico de Puerto Rico #12 discussed Cabo Rojo and its ports, but he doesn't mention pirates in it as far as my memory goes. Other tomes mention contraband, but then again, no Cofresí. Some of the biographical facts are clearly real, birthplace, family, etc. but there is some obvious dramatization at work. Coll y Toste did his homework, and as a historian he likely researched Cofresí's route and his victims. Being the closest to a "contemporary" source, I don't want to dismiss it, but we must figure what to include and how to include it.


 * Also on an unrelated note, while writing the initial GA draft I continually came across mentions of the flags that he used. Some simply claimed that he used a black flag (with no mention of a Jolly Roger) and other claimed that he used "the red flag of Puerto Rico". I have absolutely no idea what they mean by "red flag of Puerto Rico", since the first revolutionary flag was created years after he died and the maritime ensign was established twenty years later. Any ideas? -  Ca ri bb e a  n ~ H. Q.  05:46, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Fascinating stuff about the flag. I'm trying to find time to visit the library to re-read the book by Cardona Bonet, "El marinero, bandolero, pirata y contrabandista Roberto Cofresí." The bad news is that is non-circulating. I remember reading something about the crew. --Jmundo (talk) 17:40, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
 * That would be great. The ship's crew would be an interesting addition. What I was searching for, but couldn't find, was a list of ships that El Mosquito plundered. Perhaps that book has something relevant? The current books are more fiction than fact. The author of Corsario has done some solid genealogic work, but the novel seems mostly fictional to me, it was even promoted with a phony story (something about the lost testament of Cofresí being found in Mona). He claims that is the only fictional part, but having read some of it at Borders (yeah...) that seems too-good-to-be-true. That book has over 150 pages, which would make it the biggest one after Bonet's enormous work. I have been trying to find a copy of The Pirate of Puerto Rico for a few years now, but they are also out of print. El Mito de Cofresí en la narrativa Antillana was a lucky find, that one is also very rare. -  Ca ri bb e a  n ~ H. Q.  18:54, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

First arrest
According to Cardona's first book, Cofresi was arrested in July 1821. The circumstances are not clear but Cardona argues that it was because of his criminal activities around the south west of the island. He later escaped from the prison in San German where he was detain before being transported to San Juan. Any thoughts? This detail about his life seems to change the narrative of his earlier years. --Jmundo (talk) 23:09, 28 December 2013 (UTC)


 * That is absolutely correct. I have been reading the snippets of Cardona's book and systematically began moving some of the "old" content to the (mostly fictional) "Modern view" section to make space, based on the fact that he apparently began his criminal career by stealing cattle and committing other land-based crimes. One phrase that I keep seeing is "el entonces Don Roberto Cofresí...", which implies that he was commanding a gang when he was still highly regarded. Those early crimes, his escape from that prison and the very interesting fact that Cofresí apparently attacked all of the ships involved in his capture before (giving the capture a "revenge" angle) are things that I have in schedule and was only waiting until the second edition is released to add them. -  Ca ri bb e a  n ~ H. Q.  03:12, 16 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Ok, I finally got my copy of the book. Besides the issues that you mentioned, the entire chronology of the article will be changed. It is now obvious to me that Fernández Valledor relied too much on Tapia's depiction. For starters, the Anne was not named El Mosquito prior to 1875. But more importantly, the entire narrative with the Grampus is wrong. The ship was not even in Guayama when Cofresí was captured, it was on its way to Saint Thomas. The claim that it was the ship that engaged the pirates comes from Tapia, who likely wanted to reflect the diplomatic issues of the second half of the century. However, Cofresí did potshot the Grampus on one occasion and also attacked the San José... As a matter of fact, that last mission was mostly staffed by pissed off victims, which is something that will be elaborated in the "Capture of the Anne" article (along the little known fact that he was the leader of the pirates involved in the Fajardo Affair and, thus, was responsible for getting David Porter court-martialed). On another note, Acosta's genealogical work is solid and I will use it to expand on his lineage, but some of the conclusions that she made in the first book were later retracted. I will retcon those claims accordingly. -  Ca ri bb e a  n ~ H. Q.  10:35, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Poster
I have a bit of interest in printing and wondered about the poster. The typeface on the heading seems a bit late for 1825 - not impossible and I certainly don't known much about Spanish government printing, but I associate that style more with the 1860s than the 1820s. Is there a source for where it came from and maybe what museum retains it? (I've seen it reproduced on some pages I think belong to the Puerto Rico government, but they don't give sources either.) Blythwood (talk) 07:02, 9 November 2015 (UTC)


 * I am not sure, . What I can say is that the details of the Avispa's incursion that are hand written are accurate down to the misspelling of the vessel's name (as "Abispa"), so that part seems contemporary. The part where his name (and the reward) is written in cursive is likely the original printed document, but there is a chance that the "Wanted" part was added later to attract tourists. I am unaware of the poster's current location, but it belongs to the municipality of Cabo Rojo. They must have more details, so I suggest that you try contacting them by Fax at this number 1-787-851-3388. Or if your Spanish is good, you can call them directly at this number 1-787-851-1025. -  Ca ri bb e a  n ~ H. Q.  21:27, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

Dominican Republic
The article repeatedly mentions the Dominican Republic as active in the 1820s, but this may be an anachronism.

A short-lived Republic of Spanish Haiti (1821-1822) ruled from Santo Domingo for less than a year. It was quickly annexed by the neighboring Republic of Haiti, and the Unification of Hispaniola lasted for two decades (1822-1844). Cultural differences between the French and Spanish-derived population of the island caused the Dominican War of Independence (1844-1856) and the Dominican Republic was established in the 1840s. Should this be mentioned? Dimadick (talk) 07:55, 20 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Yes. It's common for the historians that write these books to use the modern names for the regions, these are biographies intended for the layman and thusly do not put that much emphasis on geography. There are also cultural issues of common use (many, many Spanish books still use the term Ingleses -English- when referencing the British). I am currently experiencing connectivity issues due to hurricane María, but when the situation gets better I will add a note and change all references to the DR, replacing them with "eastern Hispaniola". -  Ca ri bb e a  n ~ H. Q.  16:01, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

Context of his marauding
To the authors of this excellent article: This statement "Cofresí's sudden success was an oddity, nearly a century after the end of the Golden Age of Piracy. By this time, joint governmental efforts had eradicated rampant buccaneering by Anglo-French seamen (primarily based on Jamaica and Tortuga), which had turned the Caribbean into a haven for pirates attacking shipments from the region's Spanish colonies; this made his capture a priority." is conflating two different issues. While it is true that buccaneers from Jamaica and Tortuga had long been eradicated, piracy was endemic around Cuba in the early 1820s. It was enabled by authorities on the island. Cofresi's success is not an oddity when placed in the context of the years he was active and the location. The British did not send in anti-piracy operations around Cuba until late in 1823-4. One good source on this is McCarthy, Matthew. Privateering, Piracy and British Policy in Spanish America 1810-1830. Woodbridge, UK: Boydell Press, 2013. CrushLily (talk) 04:34, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
 * In terms of gathering international attention, it certainly was. While piracy remained “endemic” throughout the region, no other pirate crew had six countries actively looking for them and avoiding capture. The extent of this “success” was evident in the amount of foreign diplomats that came to San Juan once Cofresí was captured (covered in detail in the article for the Capture of the sloop Anne). This sort of notoriousness -while alive- was not seen often during the 19th Century and is, very much, reminiscent of the Golden Age pirates... Which is the point of that assertion. Cuba had several instances of piracy, including some fairly notable events, but when suppression began only one name stood out... “Diabolito” or “Diablito”, and very little is actually known about his career (we don’t even know his actual name). -  Ca ri bb e a  n ~ H. Q.  07:22, 18 August 2020 (UTC)