Talk:Rocco Perri

Category removal
I've removed the category Category:Gangsters which is a redirect to Category:Mobsters. As the article is already listed under Category:Canadian mobsters, the Category:Mobsters is not nessessary. MadMax 16:41, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Updated the article
Good afternoon, @User:Vaselineeeeeeee. I know that you keep track of articles about the mob and we have collaborated on improving a couple of them. Note that there has been some new information published since a major update was done on this article. I have made the updates. Cheers, Peter K Burian (talk) 22:24, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Should ALL of this be in the lead section??
I work on editing a lot of articles and based on my experience, much of this from the lead should be in the body of the article.

AND perhaps we should have a section about his Personal Life, separate from his business life.

Your thoughts about this @User:Vaselineeeeeeee?

Perri was born in the Italian town of Platì in Calabria, and immigrated to the United States, and later to Canada in 1908. In the early 1910s, Perri started work in construction and in a bakery. Perri and his wife began a business in bootlegging in 1916, when Ontario restricted the sale of alcohol. Starkman dealt mainly with the finances of the business. He began a career exporting liquor from distilleries, such as Gooderham and Worts, to the United States, and became known as "The King of the Bootleggers".[2] Perri was charged with perjury after a Royal Commission testimony, and served five months in prison. In 1930, Starkman was ambushed in her garage and killed; no one was charged with her murder. In 1940, Perri was arrested and sent to internment at Camp Petawawa as part of the Italian Canadian internment; he was released three years later. Perri disappeared in Hamilton on April 23, 1944, when he went for a walk to clear his head; his body was never found. Peter K Burian (talk) 22:38, 6 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Yes, that's fine in the lead. It summarizes the his life and the article. Breaking up the personal and career life is fine as long as it does not break the chronology too much. Also, can you find anything on when/whether Perri was ever declared dead in absentia? I've tried but could never find anything definitive. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 03:32, 7 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Never declared dead...I did the research and updated the article:

A Last Will and Testament from 1930 purporting to be to be that of Rocco Perri came to light in 1998 but there is serious doubt that Perri was ever declared dead. A CBC News report in 2012 stated that "there’s no death certificate out there for Rocco Perri".[25] The group attempting to access the mobster's estate said in 2018 that there was no Social Insurance Number or death certificate and that the Canada Revenue Agency had transferred the funds from Perri's estate to Italy in 2008.[26] Peter K Burian (talk) 14:01, 7 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Interesting - thanks for that. Could you find anything on whether Perri and Starkman were ever actually married or was it just always a common law realtionship. Would be nice to add a year or clarify what spouse means in the infobox. Also, on the lead, you could break it into paragraphs if you want and add to it if you think there are parts of the summary that are now missing with your added content - just make it brief as it is a lead - see WP:LEAD. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 14:04, 7 June 2020 (UTC)


 * @User:Vaselineeeeeeee Yes, I did confirm common-law aspect with Starkman, as you have seen. AND his common-law relationship later, with Annie Newman.  Rocco began living in 1933 with another strong woman, Annie Newman, who ... http://www.biographi.ca/en/bio/starkman_besha_15E.html Peter K Burian (talk) 14:47, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

I corrected the spouse section (Annie Newman)
@User:Vaselineeeeeeee... Perri had a long-term (off and on) affair with Olive Routledge from 1917 until her death in 1922 but was living with Bessie at the time, so Routledge would not have been a spouse/partner, in my view.

By 1936, he was living with another woman, Annie Newman, who helped him to improve his criminal enterprise.[17] So, I added her as the second partner, deleting Routledge.

After Bessie's death: he met another Jewish woman from Toronto and brought her back to Hamilton. ''It’s not really clear how he met Annie Newman, but he immediately saw in her Bessie 2.0,” Cole said. “Annie was just as corrupt and business-like as Bessie.'' https://www.cjnews.com/perspectives/features/hamiltons-boardwalk-empire Peter K Burian (talk) 14:31, 7 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Hmm... Routledge did have two children by Perri but none of the sources I found said that the two ever actually lived together. He did pay child support, however.


 * Perri's lawyer told her - incorrectly - that he was "married" to Bessie... led to Routledge suicide. https://books.google.ca/books?id=L2PrgQWaTFMC&pg=PA126&lpg=PA126&dq=rocco+perri+affair+routledge&source=bl&ots=rjBG8QeMKX&sig=ACfU3U3-AszVOoY7JCz6OE_J3TiiqXpbqg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjW6fzW9u_pAhUOoHIEHWSYAVMQ6AEwAnoECAoQAg#v=onepage&q=rocco%20perri%20affair%20routledge&f=false

Peter K Burian (talk) 14:36, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I feel like since he had two kids by her it warrants enough mention as a partner in my view. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 15:45, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

OK, I added Routledge to the Partners section. Peter K Burian (talk) 16:46, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks I think it makes sense since partners is not a legally binding parameter like spouse. Years could also be added in brackets of their partnership for more accuracy. Common laws can also be considered as a spouse can’t they? Maybe we could add them back to the spouse section with the years and specifying it was common law? Also with your new additions, I think the family and criminal aspects can be separated as that section is quite long. I’m not mobile right now and can do it later unless you want to and I’ll take a look later. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 17:09, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Will do tonight. Peter K Burian (talk) 19:53, 7 June 2020 (UTC)


 * @User:Vaselineeeeeeee, I have separated the Personal and Criminal sections. Peter K Burian (talk) 21:26, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I had to go over your edits due to an edit conflict - please add your minor edits back - sorry. <b style="color:black">Vaseline</b><b style="color:lightgrey">eeeeeee</b>★★★ 14:57, 8 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Does any other source corroborate the detail that Perri and Starkman had a child who died shortly after birth on the day Starkman died? It seems rather odd that the two were on a night on the town when their newborn baby died... <b style="color:black">Vaseline</b><b style="color:lightgrey">eeeeeee</b>★★★ 02:26, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Will check tomorrow..Peter K Burian (talk) 03:01, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

@User:Vaselineeeeeeee ... I cannot find another source who confirms the infant death. So, to be safe, I have deleted that sentence. Peter K Burian (talk) 13:22, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Ok. Yes, I think that is the sensible thing to do for now. <b style="color:black">Vaseline</b><b style="color:lightgrey">eeeeeee</b>★★★ 13:24, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

I created Bessie Starkman using most of the info from here as she is a powerful woman who deserves a page and has a ton of info on her. Feel free to give more info pertaining to her there. <b style="color:black">Vaseline</b><b style="color:lightgrey">eeeeeee</b>★★★ 18:28, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Great idea User:Vaselineeeeeeee! Will do. Cheers, Peter K Burian (talk) 18:46, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Bessie's tomb stone? Was something added?
I checked photos online

Here is one, showing the Perri deleted: http://historicalhamilton.com/type/cemetery/ohev-zedeck-cemetery/p-2519-bessie-starkman-perri-tomb-close-up.html

Here is one in a video, of the top section too, showing Toben Starkman. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iX8OYo2Y00 But that does not look like it was added. It was probably always there. Articles that I have read mention only one modification, the removal of the name Perri. But whether that is correct or not, I don't know. Peter K Burian (talk) 16:58, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I see - missed the inscription below the Hebrew - rvd. <b style="color:black">Vaseline</b><b style="color:lightgrey">eeeeeee</b>★★★ 17:08, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Ok. Cheers, Peter K Burian (talk) 23:32, 8 June 2020 (UTC)