Talk:Rocinha

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Hulk Movie was filmed in Tavares Bastos favela, not in Rocinha. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.29.251.25 (talk) 12:21, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

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Sorry guys, but Rocinha isn´t the biggets favela in Brasil, and it´s about 56.000 hab according to Rio harbour site. And the pic here isn´t Rocinha. www.rio.rj.gov.br thanx —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.51.2.53 (talk) 21:13, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

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Well, the picture is not showing Rocinha ... it's Vidigal. Just to add.

Seriously, to believe also there was a serious out burst of mad cow disease during the war :D that Rocinha is not a Favela just because it have some kind of basic infra-structure is quite naîve. I lived 14 years in São Conrado (Rio de Janeiro, Brazil), and I passed in front of it every day (and I still do, every December/January when visiting Rio).

Favela doesn't mean literaly Shanty Town or Slum. Is beyond that. The Favelas is a Brazilian fenomenon that one will only be able to understand if he or she understands the social-economics, historical and geographical and cultural aspects of Brazil.

First, although that many houses of Rocinha are indeed made of Bricks and Concrete -- but that's all. Many of these houses have only one room, light bulbs dangling from the walls and very basic sanitation enough for a toilet (yeah, they know what a toilet is), a sink and a shower. What I mean is, the building of the houses are very (AND I REALLY MEAN VERY) basic. Imagine that you are planning to build a house, but you halt the construction before its completion. This is how a most houses in a Favela looks like. Regardless of constrasts such as satelite dishes at the top of houses.

Also, there is the social-economic factor. Favelados are considered (by many) as misfits. And people that live int he favelas might have irregular source of incomes. That is: social instability. So, it doesn't matter if it is a shanty town or a slum. There are other factors to be taken into place.

Criminal control section plagiarized?
A good deal of the copy in the Criminal Control section appears on the Two Brothers Foundation website here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.77.116.214 (talk) 00:40, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Favela - A Brazil question?
IMHO favelas spread beyond Brazil, into countries like Venezuela (specially Caracas) or Colombia (specially Medellín). BTW, I think part of this discussion should be held in Favela's article. What do you think? --80.102.178.11 14:24, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC) (es:Usuario:Jdiazch)


 * I think the term favela is a Brazilian issue. Of course you have similar slums/shanty towns in other countries such as Venezuela or Argentina. However, they are called different: Cantegril, Pueblos Jóvenes, etc. --Pinnecco 12:39, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Favela?
I was born in Rocinha and Rocinha is a Favela, yes. Many parts in Rocinha have things like of the asfalto but in area like Macega, Roupa Suja many houses there still is barraco and very poor people of Rocinha living there. If anybody wants more information about Rocinha, you can ask me, ok? I have my house in area of Rua 1 (first street) ..I love my home and is afordable to stay there. I never make money to move outside Rocinha. We in Rocinha say Rocinha is a favela, not bairro becase we have many problems of a favela..Yes improvements with the curent PAC are helping to make better of things but still there is many problems there. rocinhajj@yahoo.com.br

It should be noted that Rocinha has grown so much in the last 20 years (being the greatest favela in Latin America), it has recently (2003/2004) gained the title of district, thus being a neighbourhood on itself, the same as Ipanema, Copacabana, Lagoa, Flamengo, etc etc. Aside from that, the fact that most houses are made of brick and cement (instead of the poorer wooden/carton settings) and that it has gained a lot of "facilities" such as described on the article (banks, numerous shops, asphalt, sanitation, cable TV, first aid facilities, heck, even a McDonalds) makes the Rocinha hardly qualifiable as a favela anymore. If no one is against it, I shall rename it on the article in the next couple of weeks.LtDoc 20:48, 1 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I disagree. As mentioned above, the term favela doesn't apply only to shanty towns. Moreover, everyone still reffers to Rocinha as a Favela, regardless of its mention as a Bairro. --Pinnecco 00:06, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

I know it doenst apply only to shanty towns, what I said is that Rocinha is a Bairro (district) and not Favela anymore, at least in the official name. Of course, everybody knows it as "Favela da Rocinha", but it should at the very least state in the article that it has become a Bairro, perhaps the first in the world.LtDoc 02:46, 2 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I understood perfeclty what you said, perhaps you didn't understood my answer. Rocinha got the title of a district just because of its size. It still have all the features of a favela. Almost the entire population is below the poverty line, have unstable social status (i.e.: unsecured source of income), and not all of Rocinha have proper sanitation, electricity and asphalt. --Pinnecco 00:25, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Im sorry, but you are mistaken. The title of bairro is not (only) due to its size. Asphaltation, sanitization, libraries, medical facilities, banks and other such factors come togheter to give Rocinha its "emancipation". Yes, there are many people living below the poverty line, but saying that almost the entire population is stretching the truth. As for "unsecured source of income", what you problably meant informal economy. The owner of a grocery store, for example, has an insecure source of income, for he knows not if he will make a profit in any given month; however, he is part of the formal economy. Being part of the informal economy (housemaids, camelôs, etc..) doesnt make one with "unsecured income" necessarily. Are you aware that there are 2-, 3-, 4- (and more) store buildings in rocinha? And commercial ones too? That hardly is the norm with other favelas in Rio and the world.LtDoc 01:34, 3 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Dear LtDoc... I lived 500 metters from Rocinha, at the Village in São Conrado, for 14 years of my life. And I still visit it every December. I know exactly how Rocinha is. In fact, I've been there about 5 or 6 times. Rocinha IS a favela. If you want to be politicaly corret, you can call it a "favela-bairro". So what it got emancipation? Do you think the simple fact it got "emancipation" improved people's quality of life somehow (can't stop thinking of Bophuthatswana). And you should get your perceptions straight. By no means I said that housemaids or camelôs are with "unsecured income" (and I didn't use this term either). Basicaly, people without a "carteira de trabalho" (not maids), people that jumps from little jobs here and there (as several people that live in Rocinha and other favelas) -- this is what I'm talking about. And let me antecipate that what I've said doesn't mean that this people are "less hard-workers" than others. What you seem to forget it the social factor of Favelas. Store buildings? So what? The viviendas in Uruguay are very nice, whith shopings around, and even with parking lots. -- But they are still viviendas. --Pinnecco 22:28, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Again, I repeat myself. I just want "Rocinha is now a district on its own" to be noted on the article. Is it still a favela? Well, certainly people will keep calling it a favela. It should be noted that those are not mutually exclusive definitions, meaning it can be both.

Also, I never said that the emancipation per se improved the quality of life of those people. Surely, sanitazion, public lights, asphaltation and other such things did improve the quality, but obviously the changing of the name never did that. This change of name, however, is a direct effect of the improvements it received, since you cant call "Morro do Turano" a bairro.

And pardon me, but you did use the term. have unstable social status (i.e.: unsecured source of income), if you must read your own words. Then you switch by saying that you meant people without carteira assinada. Well, hellooo, those are the people who make the informal economy! Those are the same people who jump from little jobs here and there! Do you think they follow the camelô bussiness for life?

And no, Im not forgetting the social factors around a favela. But you do seem prejudiced against them; not almost the entire population is below the poverty line (though some most definitively are). For someone who lived so close and frequented so often, you seem to have quite a misconception of what Rocinha is today. And last but not least, and not all of Rocinha have proper sanitation, electricity and asphalt is quite naive; not all of Copacabana (or Ipanema or Manhattan for that matter) has these things and it is not a favela because of that.LtDoc 01:15, 4 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Of course I used the term  unstable social status! I fact, what I said was [...] unstable social status (i.e.: unsecured source of income. The problem is that you are giving it a definition that is far away from what I meant, and says that I have switched what I have said previously. This is cheap demagogy, when in fact it was *YOU* that added camelôs and housemaids to the list (tsc, tsc... quite low, really).


 * Dude, I am going to make it short for you. First, don't lecture me on Rocinha and my biased social status. I've been on the top of Rocinha more than once, and I had friends from there. Second, you want to mention that Rocinha is now a district? Good, I have no problem with that, because this is accurate -- it is a bairro on its own. Third, you want to say that it is not a Favela anymore? Then I disagree with that. It *IS* a favela. PERIOD.


 * And one more thing, your Manhattan and Rocinha' rethoric above is ridiculous, not to say it is SAD. --Pinnecco 15:19, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Reread you own articles and realise youre speaking nonsense and being unpolite at the same time. This is to be grounds to a polite, non-personal (and luckly) productive argument. Refrain from using personal attacks and abide by the Wikiquette.

Second, I stand by my words. Reread them and you will find that all your comments in the above edition are just nonsense. Did you actually understand what I wrote? Understand that first, and then lets talk about "what I want" or "what you want".LtDoc 19:19, 8 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Again, cut the shenanigans and demagogy. Rocinha *IS* a Favela, regardless if it is a district or not. I am speaking nonsense? I am not the one comparing Manhattan and Rocinha trough logical falacies. --Pinnecco 22:25, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

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IMHO article is looking very good as of November 2005 -- thanks to everyone who's contributed.

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LtDoc is correct, Rocinha is no longer a favela, it gained bairro (neighborhood) status in the late 90's. This does in fact make a big diferrence to those who live in Rocinha as they are an official neighborhood in the eyes of the city government, have an official address, can own their land, and benefit from such services as applying for a line of credit, as an example. Furthermore, it should be noted Rocinha has never participated in the project Favela-Bairro. Fav-Bairro is the largest municipal project undertaken by the RJ city gov where apprx US$450 million has been appropriated for the benefit of urbanizing and integrating over 300 favelas in RJ alone. While many of the residents who live in Rocinha are poor, most are not miserable and their average income is above BR's minimum wage. In some buildings along the main road, rents can be comparable to rents in Copacabana - AP. RJ, Jan 26, 2006


 * Basicaly, you just said that you agree with LtDoc and repeated all the nonsense from above. So I will just make it short: I stand for what I wrote above. Rocinha is a favela. A big one, with bus routes and all that. But it IS A FAVELA. It has irregular strucutres? Yes. Many of these lack of proper sanitation? Yes. Many residents are poor? Yes. So it is a FAVELA. PERIOD. --Pinnecco 19:27, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

---

As a resident of Rocinha, my home may be seen as a "bairro" but if you live here you will see that it is a FAVELA. I live here and my "bairro" looks nothing like copacabana, flamengo or other bairros..what makes it a favela to me is, the poorly construction of the houses, you can see all the infrestruture of pipes, sewage, electricity, we even have a open sewer system running through the bottom left side of the comunity, the roads are in poor condition, and we have drug trafickers here who carry powerful weapons, only those who live on the principal street Estrada da GAVEA, receive mail, if you live in a beco or alley you need find alternative way to get mail, we dont have proper regularized garbage removal, there are many who live in shacks against the dois irmaos mountains and have to receive food from our food bank that our residents association runs, the rents are not equal to Copacabana, my apartment is 400 reais for a nice one bedroom apartment, never in Copa will you find this (whoever wrote this doesnt know what they talk about).....these are things that a regular neighborhood does NOT have..yes our FAVELA has many businesses 90% are informal/not regulated by goverment, banks, good transport. we are considered a CLASS A favela but still a favela..whenever there is a news story we are referred as "FAVELA DA ROCINHA", never bairro da Rocinha...the city needs to make up its mind what it wants to call us, but for me in comparison to other "bairros", my home that I care so much about is still a FAVELA....please dont compare Copacabana to Rocinha as they are nothing like each other....I live in a FAVELA with much pride. rocinhajj@yahoo.com.br — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.76.212.250 (talk) 03:49, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Not "gentrified"
"one of the most highly developed (some would say gentrified) of the favelas."

I cut out the line about "gentrified". In the USA at least, this term is used pretty specifically to mean that yuppies are re-making and moving to an area. Although Rocinha is not a "shanty-town" and is definitely improving, I think that using the term "gentrified" here is way overstating things. - 24 November 2005

please we do not like theses words, slum and shantytown, too many things negative in the words. In favela, comunity is not all miseria..we call our place "Comunidade" (comunity)...rocinhajj@yahoo.com.br

Population density
Does anybody know a source citing the population density of rocinha? Would it qualify for the district with the highest population density in the world? 137.222.240.8 23:24, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Rocinha have about 300.000 people live there. I live in Rocinha in Rua 1..rocinhajj@yahoo.com.br

Changes to community section
''There are also a number of community organizations at work in Rocinha, including three neighborhood associations and the Fundação Dois Irmãos, which coexists in the United States as the Two Brothers Foundation, founded by Dr. Paul Sneed, currently of San Diego State University, which sends volunteers into the favela to teach language and cultural classes to both children and adults. Two Brothers Foundation/Club Brazil at the University of Oklahoma is also linked directly to the foundation.'' This paragraph reads like an ad for the Two Brothers community organization, which is by no means the most important among the scores (hundreds?) of NGOs in Rocinha. I propose either removing the description of Two Brothers (I guess a mention could stay, or maybe the external link at the bottom) or rewriting the paragraph to make it clear that there are many, many other community organizations working in Rocinha, both externally funded (i.e. receiving funds from outside Brazil) and supported by Brazilian institutions or the community itself.

I welcome comments, but if I don't hear from anyone I'll be editing those bits in the next couple of days. On a separate issue, though, I removed the description of the organization's activities, which read, in part: "[it] sends volunteers into the favela to teach language and cultural classes". The last thing we need is for the Wikipedia article on Rocinha to use that kind of language, which essentially perpetuates all the negative stereotypes of favela life and pretty much makes it sound like the volunteers are venturing into some sort of untamed and dangerous wilderness to interact with the natives there. Twelve6 21:43, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Many celebrities have visited Rocinha, including Mikhail Gorbachev (during the Earth Summit of 1992), Michael Jackson and actor Christopher Lambert...Robert Neuwirth discusses Rocinha in his book entitled Shadow Cities. It's unclear to me what these parts have to do with "Community" Twelve6 21:43, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Why can' we get a picture of ROCINHA here????
... um Vidigal IS _ NOT the same thing.

Can i post a pic of my own here or do i have to go thru a process of CC copyright etc??

I have many fotos of Rocinha, send me email and i give to you ok?..rocinhajj@yahoo.com.br

Moved uncited and dated section to Talk.
- Moved this uncited and dated section to Talk for now. References situation of 2006.Tagged with "Refimprove" since July 2007. Please update this info and add good cites before returning to main article. Thanks.

Criminal control Rocinha, like most of Rio’s favelas, is under the control of a criminal faction. The faction that controls Rocinha, as of late 2006, is the ADA (Amigos dos Amigos). Typically, Rio’s favelas fall under the control of one of three main factions, the CV (Comando Vermelho), the TC (Terceiro Comando), and the ADA. These groups are famous for providing much needed resources such as support for day care, medicine for the sick, and money for the poor. They also have been known to build asphalt roads, host huge community parties, and even sponsor other recreational spaces and activities, such as soccer pitches. These groups normally maintain a very high level of control over social behavior, strictly prohibiting street crimes such as rape, muggings, and break-ins within the favela. Even so, Rio’s criminal factions should not be glorified or romanticized as some sort of modern day Robin Hoods. Besides drug trafficking, such organizations in Rio have historically been involved in arms smuggling, bank robberies, kidnapping, and murder. Despite the low incidence of street crime in favelas, the frequency of gun battles between police and rival gangs in these communities present real dangers. Police and drug traffickers co-exist in a very complicated balance of power that involves a high level of corruption and cooperation. Even so, police invasions of favelas such as Rocinha are common, and the results can be dramatic and intense large-scale gun battles. The climate of tension between police and the drug traffickers has been especially high since the 2004 invasion of Rocinha by the famous CV gangster Dudu and his men. As a result, Rocinha switched from the CV to the ADA, a loss the CV has never accepted. Despite Dudu’s arrest in late December of 2004, many residents still feel another invasion by the CV is imminent. This sense of uncertainty became even more real after the death of Rocinha's charismatic ADA leader Bem-Te-Vi in 2005. Currently, as of October 2006, Rocinha is run by one leader/boss; Nem -- Writtenonsand (talk) 21:36, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

"Enormity" vs. "Enormousness"
Nasnema,

As I've explained on your talk page, this all too common English usage error, has nothing at all to do with "local dialect." Given that you are evidently British and have displayed over your history of edits here a very marked preference for your own "local dialect," I refer you to the entry for "enormity" in the highly respected (British) Compact Oxford English Dictionary: enormity 1 [mass noun] (the enormity of) the great or extreme scale, seriousness, or extent of something perceived as bad or morally wrong:a thorough search disclosed the full enormity of the crime (in neutral use) large size or scale:I began to get a sense of the enormity of the task 2 a grave crime or sin:the enormities of war Origin: late Middle English: via Old French from Latin enormitas, from enormis, from e- (variant of ex-) 'out of' + norma 'pattern, standard'. The word originally meant ‘deviation from legal or moral rectitude’ and ‘transgression’. Current senses have been influenced by enormous Usage Enormity traditionally means‘ the extreme scale or seriousness of something bad or morally wrong’, as in residents of the town were struggling to deal with the enormity of the crime. Today, however, a more neutral sense as a synonym for hugeness or immensity, as in he soon discovered the enormity of the task, is common. Some people regard this use as wrong, arguing that enormity in its original sense meant ‘a crime’ and should therefore continue to be used only of contexts in which a negative moral judgement is implied. Nevertheless, the sense is now broadly accepted in standard English, although it generally relates to something difficult, such as a task, challenge, or achievement The sentence in the Rocinha namepage that I'd edited did not use "enormity" to characterize "something difficult, such as a task, challenge, or achievement," so its usage to apply to an object -- the favela [slum] -- was incorrect as a matter of even the most "modern" standard English, even in its least prescriptive BRITISH application: The Incredible Hulk gives an aerial view of Rocinha, and impressive helicopter footage that gives a fair idea of the enormity of the favela and its complex assortment of seemingly endless chaotic constructions. Ravinpa (talk) 04:07, 11 June 2011 (UTC)