Talk:Rocket Festival

Untitled
Open for discussion.Lee 16:15, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Nahng Ai and Pha Dang
The Rocket Festival Beauty Queen is Nahng Ai (นางไอ), and her consort Pha Dang (ผาแดง).

Nahng means Mistress or Mrs., but not Miss. Ai means vapor trail such as comes from a steaming kettle, or trailing behind a rocket. That's awkward to translate: how about "Ms. Jet"?

Pha Dang means Red-Cliff or Cliffred, but not a cliff of the color red, which would be Pha See Dang. Like 'Clifford' it doesn't seem to refer to any particular geographic feature. And the love story between Ms. Jet and Cliffred seems to take as many twists as wayward rockets. Ms. Jet is of course always a beauty, and to be 'awarded' to the rocket-shoot winner, but sometimes she's a village girl and sometimes a Princess; and Princess of What varies, too. Cliffred is always from somewhere else, sometimes a particular place (not known for a red cliff), but sometimes from parts unknown. He has always heard of Ms. Jet's beauty, but sometimes he's never heard of a rocket festival. Whether he's heard of it or not he is expected to compete in the rocket launching event that follows the day after the parade, but I've never heard of an actual rocket launch where anyone posing as either Ms. Jet or Clffred actually shows up. In the various story lines, if Cliffred is from parts unknown where he never heard of rocket festivals, he is nevertheless rich enough to buy his way in--and win. But then another woman seduces him away from Ms. Jet. If he's a poor boy from Champasak Province, Laos, he loses the contest, but Ms. Jet is so taken with him that she sneaks off and marries him anyway. Anyway, that's the various ways I've heard it. Lee in Siam who was seduced away from Ms. Jet by Ms. Lek, who never allows him to get close to rockets that go BANG! Lee 18:13, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Big Daddy, actually "Nang" in this context is more akin to "lady" as used in classical European literature. As in "my lady". That is, it has a poetic or classical interpretation of "lady". So, while Mrs. Ai might be about right, I think what you're really looking for is "Lady Ai". Also "see" (สี; "color") is commonly dropped when used in proper names (be that of people, or of things or places). So, Pha Dang actually does mean Cliff of color Red. When 'made' into a name, "see"/สี is dropped and so you get Red Cliff (sort of like you've said here) - Thaimoss 23:48, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Tambiah sees a link to the founding myths of Funan and Champa, but I only have a source which says see his pp. 296-298 in . I think the article needs a re-write to make it clear that Yasothon promotes its version as a tourist draw, but the myriad village versions draw upon the history of the region--for which I lack sources!Lee 17:31, 26 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I have found two Thai-language versions that give the lady's name as นาง ไอ่คำ which means cough, and Pha Dang as ท้าว ผาแดง King Pha-Dang, and entangles them in wars between Nagas Kings of various rivers; but I think it beyond the scope of this article and will stick with the brief mention for now.Lee 14:52, 6 April 2007 (UTC).
 * Big Daddy, surely one of the best parts about living there, is you can get at those less-common, even obscure, publications in the native language and tie things together that just wouldn't be possible from a distance. My take on the names:
 * I don't think ไอ่คำ actually means cough. "cough" is ไอ (no marker).
 * It must be Lao; I don't have a Lao dictionary.
 * ท้าว isn't literally "king" although it can mean that. I think it has the more broader mean of "your majesty", and thus does apply to kings, but would also apply to "lord", "sovereign", etc. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Thaimoss (talk • contribs) 23:25, 6 April 2007 (UTC).
 * So Sethaputra says:

ท้าว n. (Poetic, literary, archaic, obsolete) a king = ท้าวพญา, ท้าวพระยา; a matron of the palace = ท้าวนาง; a dame ท้าวมาลีราช (ท้าวมาวะลีราด) n.the grand old man who came from his abode in the Himalayas to arbitrate the differences between Ramachandra and the demon king; a great arbiter ท้าวสามล n.the old king with seven daughters in the story สังข์ทอง ท้าวแสนปม n. (Facitious) a man covered with sores, Lazarus, a lazar, a leper ท้าว = เท่า foot I have only seen ท้าว used for mythical not historical kings.

Live here and you'll soon learn the Thai tell you what they think you want to hear. If they don't know what to think, they'll change the subject. Changing the subject is a polite way to avoid embarrassment; trying to change it back is embarrassingly rude. As for looking up obscure publications, I live in an obscure province. Besides, I don't so much read Thai as decode it.Lee 07:35, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Know what you mean, I did live there. My wife is from Roi Et Province, King Amphoe Nong Hi (right next door).  I'm pretty sure, but wasn't going to delve into it here, but I thought ท้าว = เท่า was correct.  That is relevant to another phrase you've either already found, or will find, ใต้เท่า which is a commonly used reference to a royal, or a lord, (you'll see it frequently in the Thai subtitles of western movies, such as Braveheart) and is a shortened form of the full saying basically "I am below your feet", where the speaker is asserting their place below the feet of the royal (thus putting the royal in their proper higher place of respect).  Interesting observation of ท้าว  for mythical references.  I'll watch for that.  Overall, for an English-language article, I think "lord" and "lady" work fine. - Thaimoss 12:29, 7 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Having translated a decent source, I removed a lot of nonsense and added Phangkhi. Pawyilee 17:14, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Added spelling of his name, which has two variations in Thai (but not Lao) pronounced alike. Added "replete with sexual innuendo, puns, and double entendre" to description of poem. Changed Coedès' isbn from that of Tossa's book to "OCLC: 63327091". The 1968 tr. of his much older French edition has no ISBN that I can find. Pawyilee 04:27, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Nang Ai and Phangkhi have been fated by their Karma (TH:กรรม kam) to have been reborn throughout many past existences as a couple ordained (TH: คู่สร้าง Khusang); Lao-Isan says such a couple has a sai naen nam kiaw (TH:สายแนนนำเกี่ยว), a tie that binds tight. Stories about the couple, however, say they have not exactly been lovers; in many a past existence, she has been a dutiful wife, but would not yield an inch in an argument to anyone (TH:ไม่ยอมใคร mai yom krai); he only wanted to satisfy himself (TH: เอาแต่ใจคัวเอง ow tae jai tua eng).

Pawyilee 13:31, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Thai vs. Lao festival
I agree with whomever it was who put the Lao nomenclature first, but don't want an edit war. Pawyilee (talk) 05:51, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Intro
Wikipedia conventions regarding introductions ask that they, where possible, begin with the title of the article; hence A Rocket Festival.... As long as the English is then followed by Lao and Thai names and spellings, I don't think the order in which these are entered really matters. What does matter is that the article then focuses on Yasothon's justly famous Rocket Festival, with only the barest mention of practices in Laos, and none at all of those in the Shan states of Burma, or in the Lao-Tai-speaking regions of China. Also, the Phu Tai in Kalasin and Mukdahan Provinces have their own version of Bangfy called Bangfy Darai (Danger Bangfy) made of a steel pipe inside a round frame, that takes off horizontally, spinning as it goes. Neighboring provinces of Roi Et and Yasothon also have Bangfy Darai practitioners (for commercial reasons, from what I've seen), but I don't know of anything published on any of these alternatives. And that is more important than whether the Lao or Thai spelling has priority in the intro. Pawyilee (talk) 08:59, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Nagas "In spite" vs. rivers "in spate"
The nagas did go to war "in spite," but the rivers were "in spate": that is, well above flood stage. The present article doesn't go into why the nagas went to war "in spite" because the relevant character, Phangkhi as a white squirrel (or albino - Lao and Thai differ in this regard) is not normally seen in parades. FYI, he changed into a squirrel after the tournament was called off in order to spy on Nang Ai in her quarters. He wore a golden bell about his neck so that the sound would attract her to the window, which it did, but she wanted both bell and squirrel, alive or dead. She sends a royal hunter after it, and, in a scene that recalls how she came to be fed up with Phangkhi in the last life, the squirrel is killed and magically transformed into enough meat to fill 2000 cartloads, enough to for everyone in Isan to be fed up. Everybody but Phadaeng, and some widows in a village on a hill in the middle of the Kumphawapi District marsh, feast on the tainted meat. Phangkhi's father, Grand King of the Nagas, then vows that everyone who ate of the flesh of his son shall die. That's why everyone drowns, but for Phadaeng and the widows on the hill. The widows refused the meat because they reasoned, while it is a wife's duty to prepare meat brought home from the hunt by her husband, they had no husbands and so weren't obliged to cook it. Phadaeng refrained from eating the meat cooked by Nang Air because he didn't like the smell of it (and suspected it was the remains of his rival, Phangkhi.) But since this isn't worked into the parades, I can't see working it into the article. Pawyilee (talk) 17:07, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Ethnic
Don't think Ethnic needs to be prefixed to Lao in the intro, but the article is sorely lacking info on similar rocket festivals among Tai peoples stretching from Hainan to eastern India and from southern Sichuan to Laos, Thailand, and parts of Vietnam, which speak languages in the Tai family and share similar traditions and festivals. --Pawyilee (talk)

2015 warnings issued
Rocket firing festival starts in E-sarn Tai with tough warning from authorities —Pawyilee (talk) 13:05, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

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