Talk:Roger Yates/Archive 1

I want to try to fix this entry on Yates. Going to add his involvement in the animal rights movement in 1980s - was jailed [4 years] alongside Ronnie Lee in the big animal rights "show trial" - exec committee member of the BUAV - began the campaigns against Edelson Furs Co (Manchester) and Hazleton Lab (Harrogate). Press officer for the ALF (led to his trial). Member of the Northern Animal Liberation League. Helped organise the famous Waterloo Cup campaigns for the Hunt Sabs - with David Callender. Helped organise the Merseyside Sea Shepherd campaign in the Orkney Islands. Opened the first ever "animal rights shop" in Liverpool in 1982.

NOw a leading abolitionist writer - along with Gary Francione. One of the leading scholars in the understanding of the Britsh animal protection movement and the welfare/rights divide.

that enough? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Billlegend2 (talk • contribs) 03:16, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

with regard to sources on Yates - he features in Keith Mann's recent book, 'From Dusk Until Dawn', journalist David Henshaw's book, 'Animal Warfare' and sociologist Steve Baker's book, 'Picturing the Beast'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Billlegend2 (talk • contribs) 03:48, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * If you can add reliable sources establishing these claims to notability, rather than the academic bio which as it stands fails WP:PROF, then I expect the article can indeed be kept. Rockpock  e  t  04:40, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Academic life
This is written in quite a POV tone, and some of the references don't support what the edit is saying. For example, "Yates describes his ground-breaking approach as "non – or less – speciesist zemiology," followed by footnote 16, which doesn't mention Yates.

I'd suggest that we pare this section down to the bare bones, or that it be rewritten in a very neutral tone with good sources, or with Yates himself as a source (within reason). SlimVirgin (talk) (contribs) 01:51, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree, SV. It reads very much like a sociology essay. What we need to do is summarise his academic specialty within the AR field in one and, if there are reliable third party articles discussing his influence on the field, we can use them to give context wider important. Yates isn't notable as an academic, so we should be careful of promoting his beliefs per WP:UNDUE: "An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject." Rockpock  e  t  06:32, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

sorry SV and Rockpocket [brill name] I am new to this and not v good clearly. Zemiology ref are here: "In terms of ‘animal rights thought’, the interwoven nature of various forms of oppression was first articulated by the social reformer and ‘humanitarian’, Henry Salt (1851-1939) (Salt 1980, and see Hendrick & Hendrick 1989). Salt argued in his ironically-titled autobiography of 1921, Seventy Years Among Savages, that violence was not a product of ‘this bloodshed’ or ‘that bloodshed’.  For Henry Salt, ‘all needless bloodshed’ must cease in the spirit of universal kinship (cited in Wynne-Tyson 1985: 301).  As shown in the latter part of this thesis, contemporary scholars are increasingly incorporating some notion of interlinked and interwoven perspective in their work on harm, abuse and suffering, for example, within the recent development of ‘zemiology’ (or ‘harmology’)[2] and in the emergence of ‘nonspeciesist approaches’ in criminology (Piers Beirne 1995, 1997, 1999; Cazaux 1999). Indeed, given that the remit of zemiological investigation explores the idea and definition of the constituency of ‘social harm’,[3] this thesis could reasonably be described as a work of - or allied to the interests of – nonspeciesist/less-speciesist zemiology.

Interpretative sociological traditions most obviously associated with Max Weber recognise human beings as meaning-giving mammals (although putting an emphasis on humans-as-animals – and especially as mammals - is far from usual). Berger and Luckmann (1966) would contend that human beings routinely cognitively construct the world. Thus, rather than merely ‘being around’ the other animals in the world, there is a sense in which human societies create them within a complicated social framework of meaning construction. The present work therefore examines the incidence of animal harm in, for example, the social construction of nonhumans within the category of ‘food items’." This is all from: http://roger.rbgi.net/Introduction.html

there's a 'citation needed' in the text - I think that's catered for with the ref to the Uncaged article about movement audits.

should I try to rewrite some of this stuff sometime? Or leave it? Isn't that Qualitative Soc Review of use for some concerns? Billlegend2 (talk) 12:13, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

btw - I notice that if I go to activists like Ronnie Lee/Keith Mann [Avery is in clink now btw] there is that box of 'notable activists' is Yates excluded because he's not active now? Like Spira [not active because he's dead] He does still feature with Gary Francione on lots of pubic AR forums like ARCO (Animal Rights Community). I thought that 'bridge person' idea covers that - but I can't find the ref to him saying that yet.Billlegend2 (talk) 12:20, 12 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi Bill. I'm sorry to have reverted much of your work, but don't worry about being new. If often takes some time to get to grips with the idiosyncrasies of Wikipedia. The detail of Yates' work is all very interesting (and I don't meant that facetiously, I do find it interesting) but it is not directly relevant to the our (the encyclopaedia's) interest in him. There are lots of academics out there with ideas about lots of things, but we don't write articles about their ideas. We will accept an article about Yates because of his activist past, resulting in a trial and jail sentence. I always find it odd that, for our purposes, using "direct action" or committing a crime (or even being accused of it) seems more likely to make you notable than an entire career of law abiding and diligent academic work, but that is the nature of the beast.
 * So what we have to do is write his article in proportion, in terms of weight and content, with his notability. That, I think, means a paragraph or two on his academic work and we also have to use language that is accessible to a general audience. So here is the challenge, can we (and by we I of course mean you ;) summarize the scope of his work in four or five sentences using language an intelligent layman can understand? Because I don't a clue what "zemiology" actually means even having read your explanation above! Rockpock  e  t  17:51, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I think I can get more on zemiology - although I think the man himself is more into this idea of "bridge person" because this 'glues together his activism and academic work. In the meantime, one Q. Given this -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:SlimVirgin why would his inclusion in the box "notable activists" be deleted?Billlegend2 (talk) 23:04, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Rockpocket- a quick search on google brings up plenty of material on zemiology, a form of radical or critical criminology

ZEM www links. http://www.qub.ac.uk/schools/SchoolofSociologySocialPolicySocialWork/Staff/AcademicStaff/PaddyHillyard/ http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=HNK2G2kAAUcC&pg=PA258&lpg=PA258&dq=zemiology&source=web&ots=CosxnzVttA&sig=n57QNQrm9j4LyffhlYhdF3Kjq3M&hl=en http://www.bris.ac.uk/Depts/Law/slsa2001/Programme/Level%203%20Med-Tax.doc http://www.radstats.org.uk/no070/conference2.htm http://www.springerlink.com/content/r6131824828554m5/

I could write an entry from such sources if you want. Interestingly, Roger Yates name come up at the bottom of the first google search page. Billlegend2 (talk) 16:01, 16 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi again Bill. Sorry in the delay in responding, I have been very busy recently. I'm not sure what you mean about the notable activists box, but on the template's talk page there appears to be some discussion on this. I'm not really familiar enough with the field to offer a personal opinion on which activists are more or less notable. The google test, crude as it is, seems to support the current version though, see Template talk:Animal liberation.
 * If you think zemiology is a notable discipline, then by all means write an article, and feel free to link it from Yates' article (perhaps as a WP:SEEALSO). I also reverted the lengthy publicity quote for Francione's book. It really isn't relevant to Yates' research. Rockpock  e  t  06:33, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I will try to put something together on zemiology, although I don't pretend to be an expert on it. Maybe someone will be able to improve what I submit. I think I agree with your latest cut - not appropriate there, although it there a case to leave the ref without the actual lengthy quaote? I have just added something from a newspaper in Wales. Hope that's ok.Billlegend2 (talk) 14:48, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The latest addition is good, I just tweaked it and formated the source. I'd be happy to give anything you submit to zemiology the once over for house style. Rockpock  e  t  16:50, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Rockpocket - i have written a small piece on zemiology - perhaps you can 'do the necessary'?Billlegend2 (talk) 10:11, 18 April 2008 (UTC)